The decline of Christianity

[Nathan]

I should add, after contemplating on this for a little bit, that I do think there can be times of disagreement between believers without any foreseeable agreement in the future. I think that those times are only when both parties have earnestly sought to view the others side, both have COMPLETE faith in their side, and it has nothing to do with following Christ or eternal Salvation.

With that said, it takes pure honesty to achieve this. The crazy thing is that the only obstacle in our way is ourselves. We can blame the other person, but it is ourselves.

The decline of Christianity(following of Christ) is an abandonment of Faith. The Bible is very clear that there is only one Faith. Only one.

Eph 4:1-16 "I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“ When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.â€
9 (In saying, “He ascended,†what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love."

The one teacher I heard, and paraphrased before, speaks of this very topic. We see Christianity declining because we are working at trying to keep it afloat. Instead of focusing on what we have been given, we focus on those things we have not been given. Some people have been given knowledge of certain things, others have knowledge of other things. Instead of letting the Spirit unite us, we try to unite each other.

Instead of being completely honest with ourselves and others, we make the front that we are positive on a particular subject and will not budge from it. Instead of being an ear, we want to be an eye. Instead of being a foot, we want to be the hand. We do not each look to the head, which controls all parts, we look to each other.

This brings us back full circle. Doubt in God arises when we loose sight of Him. Doubt and an abandonment of Christianity/Faith comes when we judge each others Faith. When each person is fully convinced by the Spirit bearing witness to ours that we are doing the part we are called, then we will find that the divisions go away.

Col 2:16-19 "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God."

See, if we open our eyes and see that we are the ones that allow divisions to happen, because we are the ones that doubt. And when we doubt because we are allowing others to "pass judgment" we try to convince them of our position. If we would simply hold fast, trusting in God to grow us, we would see no need for divisions, and there would be no decline. If we agree that there are things that do not matter to eternal salvation and our walk with Christ; why do we even discus them? Why even debate about them? Do we not have enough to contend with in our Faith?

I have to wonder if this is just one big picture though. Now that I think of it. The human body starts out real small. Weak and fragile. Then it grows and gets bigger, stronger, more mature. It is able to do things it could not before. Then it starts the downward process again. Becoming weak, parts start to not function like they should, eventually the mind is incapable of controlling them. Then the body dies.

The decline of Christianity...it was predicted to happen...He is coming soon.

 

[Thranduil]

Wow, where do I start? A lot has been said since my last visit. I guess I should go back and begin with your inquiries and see if I can address other things as I pan those out.
NH inquired concerning these statements I made;

In light of what I previously said about doubt and lack of faith, I can say that writing out my testimony would be as pointless as speaking it out.

As I have said, I have yet to find anyone who believes me among true Spirit filled Christians, it's all doubt without faith to believe what God has said He will do.

Prophecy gets fulfilled when ALL the right people, are in the right place, at the appointed time, speaking what they are foretold to say.

Answering these three things in bold above;
The fulfillment of prophecy is the fulfillment of what has been written. It is God acting upon His Word. What He has said concerning the end will come to pass as He has declared. ALL of what He has said, not just portions of it. ALL the ingredients, measured out as formulated, mixed together according to the instructions GOD GIVES (not our recipe and procedures).

That said, I point out that my experience is finding Christians failing to believe that God is bringing ALL things to pass. I'll try to expound. Seeing the signs of the times and pointing out events. All too often I hear this; "The early church thought the end was imminent 2000 years ago." < Is this dismissal, excuse to disregard the thought? I could go on about the other suggestions such as; "No new temple yet.....the rapture hasn't happened.....etc".

If we are in the end times, God has ALL thing in place. This leads into debates about WHAT needs to be in place, which heads into arguments about presumed items as per each persons perception of what is in NEED.

The mix of perceptions of what is required becomes a platform of disagreement. The study of prophecy, which becomes complex, leading to deep study based on true meanings of the scriptures, leading to learning the exact words used and their respective meanings and the context of how they are used, leading to a SUGGESTED TRUTH that one needs to be a scholar to understand the prophecy.

Matthew 11:25 (NIV) At that time Jesus said, "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have HIDDEN THESE THINGS FROM THE WISE AND LEARNED, and revealed them to little children." (Emphasis mine)

So we have those who will not listen because they expect one to site and quote scripture to the point that, without the WISE and LEARNED facade, the speaker has no credit and there is no merit to what they say.

John 7:25-27 (NIV) At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? Here he is speaking publicly, and they are not saying a word to him. Have the authorites really concluded he is the Christ? But we KNOW WHERE THIS MAN IS FROM; when the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from." Emphasis mine

I site this as a classic example of PRESUMED UNDERSTANDING. An assumption that; "They know".
They clearly didn't know much did they? But in their presumption they made determinations about the truth and further made decisions based on those presumptions.

Here's a truth- God chooses His servants the prophets.

Who chooses them? Who grooms them? Who raises them up to serve Him?
Then we get to the prophets fruit. One person thinks miracles are a sign, NOT! It is written that John the Baptist (among other prophets) NEVER performed any miracles.< Oh and you didn't site where this is stated so I have my DOUBTS about it's truth.

I don't need to site and quote scripture to prove it's there, go look it up yourself, if you don't know it you're ignorant and vulnerable to deception; whose fault is that? Is it my responsibility to make sure no one deceives you? NO! It is your responsibility.

It is far too often ignorance that is the primary cause of doubt, but ignorance doesn't eliminate God or His Truth, nor does it erase the Word.

And in closing this particular part of what I meant;
(and boy can I hear the arguments coming!) The only persons who can interpret the prophesies and understand their meaning is the CHOSEN PROPHETS THEMSELVES. Remember WHO chose them, and go read Peters words in 1 Peter 1:10-12 & 2 Peter 1:19-21.
And pay CLOSE attention to the last statement made in 1 Peter 12 - Because;

Even (FALLEN) angels long to look into these things.

So presumption determines a persons willingness to listen, therefore, why should I try to help the body of Christ understand? Too many think they understand the prophesies, even in part.
I can offer my testimony until I'm blue in the face, write it out, etc. All too often it falls on deaf and/or ignorant ears.

 

[Strangelove]

You guys have COMPLETELY lost me.

 

[Thranduil]

You guys have COMPLETELY lost me.

We are throwing around items and thoughts concerning the degradation and decline of Christian thinking. Ideas about what causes doubts in Gods Word.
Things that people focus on that aren't truly important to having faith and trusting in God and His plan of Salvation; like thinking that knowing who the Harlot of Babylon is/or isn't, is a key to keeping oneself from being deceived. I could care less if one person says it's Jerusalem and another insists on it being Rome; neither has anything to do with preventing deception and doubt.

In my case I'm trying to emphasize how many people presume to be teachers (See James 3:1) and walk on turf they are actually trespassing upon.

James 1:22 (KJV) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

We are discussing how many Christians have lost sight of these things because they have forgotten to do these things.

James is making it clear that hearing (only) can lead to deception; that DOING what the Word says is what really counts.

We are discussing how many Christians are doing what they hear because they don't truly pay attention to what it says to do, but rather focus on what they want it to say, or flapping their jaw about what they want people to know about what they know, etc.

PS- Nathaniel, don't take my use of the word "you" personal, I'm using here in the plural, we, and us, addressing others as well.

 

[smaller]

The failures of Israel are the same failures of Christianity. In Christianity the failures are enhanced and openly demonstrated by DIVISIONS, STRIFE and various SEPARATIONS.

For an example, though I agree totally with Trinitarian understandings, am I really willing to condemn another believer who does not see 'like me' to burn alive forever? Seriously, NOT! In that conveyance I have lost sight of the fact that the appearance of God in the flesh is A MYSTERY, not easily understood, and should remain such.

I am not willing in heart to CONDEMN another person to burn alive forever over a MYSTERY. Those who do such things have been CAPTURED by false justification of themselves and the condemnation of others, imho.

By 'their doctrinal requirement' they have fallen into a DEEPER STATE of BLINDNESS and DARKNESS.

God not only allows such matters of disputes to arise, but uses them to TEST our hearts.

Paul said that HERESIES MUST COME in order to show those who are approved.

FALSE PROPHETS make FALSE CLAIMS:

Titus 1:
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

That false prophet knew NOTHING in claiming that matter against Cretians.

What doctrine is more important than loving our neighbors as ourselves? Are we really that willing to ETERNALLY condemn another person over MYSTERIES?

IF God within any has led them to LOVE their neighbors, HE WILL also show the proper matters of doctrines and judgments, and such will BE EVER MINDFUL of the PRIMARY directive, first and foremost.

Those who seek to divide, LET THEM DIVIDE. The destruction they seek upon others is openly carried in themselves.

When ANY person steps on to DOCTRINAL GROUND they must be INTERNALLY wary of the PRODUCE of those matters.

Here is A DOCTRINE that FEW believers can SEE, yet alone come to grips with:

Romans 2:
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Jesus was clear about the PERILS of JUDGMENTS. IF we 'desire' the GOOD JUDGMENTS of God, then it is IMPERITIVE that we measure to OTHERS how we WANT to be measured ourselves.

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

What has ALL of 'christianity' fallen into? The produce TODAY is almost diametrically OPPOSED and CONVERSE to what Jesus advised us to DO.

The blamer and accuser waits at the door of EVERY HEART waiting to CAPTURE it into FALSE judgments of SELF and DAMNATION of OTHERS. No correct doctrine is going to SWAY that working.

Paul openly admitted that he had EVIL PRESENT with himself and even DID EVIL because of it.

Can you IMAGINE the Pope, seated in the INFALLIBLE CHAIR OF PETER and starting his supposedly INFALLIBLE SPEAKINGS starting with THAT FACT?! He would be OPENLY LAUGHED AT AND VICIOUSLY DERIDED for speaking that SIMPLE TRUTH that THE APOSTLE PAUL spoke of OPENLY.

How far gone are we in these matters?

Quite far gone.

I speak of the simplest matters, and they are seldom understood.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Thranduil]

NH, in matters that impact our salvation, I'd agree with you. But let me ask you this... Is it better to live in harmony with our fellow believers and set aside differences that don't impact salvation or continue in strife so that "sparks may fly" as you put it? Take the literal 6 24-hour periods of creation. If someone takes 2 Peter 3 and believes a day is of 1000 years to the Lord and another believes in the literal 24-hour days - but they both hold agreement in the Gospel, which is tact is better? To continue to hammer away, or set it aside and just focus together on God.

There are many issues that sidetrack people from uniting together in Christ, so you have denominations because one can't possibly worship under the same roof as another who doesn't agree with them on every point. Do you believe Jesus prayed that we would all worship as one in that we would all agree on everything, or could it be that we would come together in spite of these differences and seek His Face as united children of God? Again, I'm talking about non-salvation issues.

I'll argue with people on matters of substance such as the Divinity of Christ, but at a certain point, I'll have to put that in the Hands of the Holy Spirit to settle on his heart. This is much different. I'll tell them I'm certain they are wrong, and I'll continue to pray for them. But I can not endlessly hash out essential doctrine with them.

Thanks for hearing me out, brother!

Mike,
To the first part of your question I underlined, my answer would be this (and, yes, I am aware you weren't asking me);

Proverbs 27:5 (KJV) Open rebuke is better than secret love.

There are times when wisdom tells us to just let somethings go and pray for others, but a complacency I see growing in this issue is Christians believing that "being nice", is what it means to be a good Christian. That kind of thinking believes that a true and good friend NEVER tells you when your wrong or questions motives, actions, and decisions.

The other part I put into blue. Here's food for thought; Where does it say these are 24 hour periods? If we measure 24 hours by the rising, setting, and rising again by the sun (a full turn of the earth's rotation), how can this be 24 hours if the sun, moon, and stars aren't created until the fourth day?

This is another great example of presumptive thinking. It assume because there was evening and morning the first, second, and third days, that they were 24 hour periods.

 

[Thranduil]

You guys have COMPLETELY lost me.

We are throwing around items and thoughts concerning the degradation and decline of Christian thinking. Ideas about what causes doubts in Gods Word.
Things that people focus on that aren't truly important to having faith and trusting in God and His plan of Salvation; like thinking that knowing who the Harlot of Babylon is/or isn't, is a key to keeping oneself from being deceived. I could care less if one person says it's Jerusalem and another insists on it being Rome; neither has anything to do with preventing deception and doubt.

In my case I'm trying to emphasize how many people presume to be teachers (See James 3:1) and walk on turf they are actually trespassing upon.

James 1:22 (KJV) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

We are discussing how many Christians have lost sight of these things because they have forgotten to do these things.

James is making it clear that hearing (only) can lead to deception; that DOING what the Word says is what really counts.

We are discussing how many Christians are doing what they hear because they don't truly pay attention to what it says to do, but rather focus on what they want it to say, or flapping their jaw about what they want people to know about what they know, etc.

 

[Thranduil]

NH, in matters that impact our salvation, I'd agree with you. But let me ask you this... Is it better to live in harmony with our fellow believers and set aside differences that don't impact salvation or continue in strife so that "sparks may fly" as you put it? Take the literal 6 24-hour periods of creation. If someone takes 2 Peter 3 and believes a day is of 1000 years to the Lord and another believes in the literal 24-hour days - but they both hold agreement in the Gospel, which is tact is better? To continue to hammer away, or set it aside and just focus together on God.

There are many issues that sidetrack people from uniting together in Christ, so you have denominations because one can't possibly worship under the same roof as another who doesn't agree with them on every point. Do you believe Jesus prayed that we would all worship as one in that we would all agree on everything, or could it be that we would come together in spite of these differences and seek His Face as united children of God? Again, I'm talking about non-salvation issues.

I'll argue with people on matters of substance such as the Divinity of Christ, but at a certain point, I'll have to put that in the Hands of the Holy Spirit to settle on his heart. This is much different. I'll tell them I'm certain they are wrong, and I'll continue to pray for them. But I can not endlessly hash out essential doctrine with them.

Thanks for hearing me out, brother!

Mike,
To the first part of your question I put into bold, my answer would be this (and, yes, I am aware you weren't asking me);

Proverbs 27:5 (KJV) Open rebuke is better than secret love.

There are times when wisdom tells us to just let somethings go and pray for others, but a complacency I see growing in this issue is Christians believing that "being nice", is what it means to be a good Christian. That kind of thinking believes that a true and good friend NEVER tells you when your wrong or questions motives, actions, and decisions.

The other part I put into blue. Here's food for thought; Where does it say these are 24 hour periods? If we measure 24 hours by the rising, setting, and rising again by the sun (a full turn of the earth's rotation), how can this be 24 hours if the sun, moon, and stars aren't created until the fourth day?

This is another great example of presumptive thinking. It assume because there was evening and morning the first, second, and third days, that they were 24 hour periods.

 

[Mike]

All very well stated since I posted last. I believe this is important enough to stand alone on its own merit. I'm going to start a new thread, as this one has got on an important, but side topic. I could separate the posts into this a new one, but the transition was slow. I'm going to start a new topic on my point and ask you to contribute there, because you have good points. To NH, I'll say on matters that concern Jesus' divine nature and the nature of the Triune God as well as where we put our faith (others too), I'd concur that we need to hold ground.

To Smaller, you made a great point about the Trinity. I stop just shy of saying those who don't accept the Triune nature of God are not of the One Church, with your premise in mind. The theology of the Trinity is a mystery, even to those who accept it. There are some tremendously faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who can't cross that line. Your overall point was well taken.

To Thran, I really hope you'll weigh in. You have good stuff! Some people do hold the 24-hour day theology of creation. Others somehow come to believe in a million/billion year period but still in Creation. Personally, I feel they are falling prey to secular science. Please join in on this new thread. (name to be determined )

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here:

OK, read this with eyes wide open. Verses 1-3 are a now present tense setting & from verse 4 Inspiration goes on past this time. I am going to put some highlights for emphasis on this present day Truth that are seen only in the first 3 verses. The last three are seen for what is to follow on after this 'Falling Away'.

Or as the [thread has it, the Decline of Christianity!] And remember that history is to be repeated as 'documented' in Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 + Gen. 41:32

2 Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The time/frame cannot be misunderstood here as it states prophetically 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus'. And we are not considering the 'others folds' of John 10:16, or the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH ones of Rev. 17:5, or the ones of Rev. 18:4. These 'seen' ones are the 10 Virgin ones of Matt. 25. Take note that they are to be judged first! 1 Peter 4:17 The other verses of 2 Thes. 2:4-6 follow on somewhat after this process. Remember that it took from 27 AD to 34 AD for Israel's complete SHAKING or FALLING AWAY to finish up, (Matt. 23:38, Rev. 2:5) and the 'New fold' to take over in Acts. (but with the same Virgin Truths)

And as one takes the Godhead at their documented Word, they will see Christ coming to His OWN FIRST as is twice to be seen before He comes the second time. (Matt. 10:5-6, John 1:11 for just a few verses.)

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Called what? The [Second (TIME) Coming]. Again, the repeat. Even down to the Heb. 6:6 killing the Son of God afresh, and the putting Him to an OPEN SHAME! Again what are the ones of Rev. 17:5 & Rev. 3:9 called??

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and [that man of sin be revealed], the son of perdition;

There is only one fold who has been teaching the 3 Angels messages of Rev. 14:6-10, while revealing the 'man of sin, the son of perdition'. They have now made ship/wreck by calling this 'fold' a Christian fold! Along with much else!! And it is this now Christ/less Virgin Fold (doctrine/wise) that is once again seen which [has again fallen away from their professed Master Jesus Christ.] (compare Rev. 3:16-17)

Who left whom?? And how was it for one to leave the fold that they were in 'membership' with? Family, friends, son's, daughters, loved ones??? And of course, see John 42:43! And this is what the falling away is. Check Saul to Paul and what he 'MUST' do? Acts 9:5-6
Final question to ponder, which fold had Christ inside of them, the old fold with the beautiful building and many well educated ones, and church schools +!, or the 'remnant' of Rev. 12:17 as seen in both histories? This friends is what the falling away (or mighty shaking) is all about. Even the second time around Prophecy tells us that this is like pulling teeth, to follow Christ OUT (Matt. 25:1 & verse 6 was their 'Midnight CRY!' to leave or else, See Rev. 18:4 for comparison) and leave the 'whole fallen from Grace Fold' behind!
Who that truly Loves Christ will be a partakers to a Christ/less fold Rev. 3:9 & Matt. 23:38? This is what has caused the on going Shaking & Falling away as seen here in 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

And with this decline of real Christian Worship, you will see more & more of in/house Churchs appear that Christ and His Word is the True focus. (compare Jer. 15:15-20)

 

[Thranduil]

All very well stated since I posted last. I believe this is important enough to stand alone on its own merit. I'm going to start a new thread, as this one has got on an important, but side topic. I could separate the posts into this a new one, but the transition was slow. I'm going to start a new topic on my point and ask you to contribute there, because you have good points. To NH, I'll say on matters that concern Jesus' divine nature and the nature of the Triune God as well as where we put our faith (others too), I'd concur that we need to hold ground.

To Smaller, you made a great point about the Trinity. I stop just shy of saying those who don't accept the Triune nature of God are not of the One Church, with your premise in mind. The theology of the Trinity is a mystery, even to those who accept it. There are some tremendously faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who can't cross that line. Your overall point was well taken.

To Thran, I really hope you'll weigh in. You have good stuff! Some people do hold the 24-hour day theology of creation. Others somehow come to believe in a million/billion year period but still in Creation. Personally, I feel they are falling prey to secular science. Please join in on this new thread. (name to be determined )

I'll look forward to that new thread Mike.