The decline of Christianity

[Mike]

Yeah but Mike....unfortunately that growth in Africa is a growth in APOSTATE christianity. Those figures represent the work done by nutjob charismatic fakeoids like Reinhard Boenke with his million man "Fire of God" concerts where people get crushed to death trying to watch his magic healing stage sorcery and even claiming that he raises people from the dead!

Without making a judgement on these African christians hearts, I'd hazard a guess that a large majority of them have been "instantly saved" with a sinners prayer or a public stage salvation event and therefore duped into a non-salvation with the mob without even glancing at the Gospels.

I dont think we can take too much heart from any "rise in christianity". The invisible Church is what counts and were never gonna know the figures for that. All we know is its gonna be a minority.

Did you read the article? Not blasting you here, because sometimes I don't read the full link someone gives. It talks about the nature of the growth in Africa. This is just one organization's opinion, but it seems the type of movement that is happening and projected to happen there is much different than what we've seen. I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the Church in the hands of voodoo-Christianity either. I've personally witnessed that in Brazil. It sounds like there's more true evangelical Christianity happening there.

 

[Strangelove]

Did you read the article? Not blasting you here, because sometimes I don't read the full link someone gives. It talks about the nature of the growth in Africa. This is just one organization's opinion, but it seems the type of movement that is happening and projected to happen there is much different than what we've seen. I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the Church in the hands of voodoo-Christianity either. I've personally witnessed that in Brazil. It sounds like there's more true evangelical Christianity happening there.

Mike...all I saw about what kinda church is rockin it out there is this bit...

Christians are experiencing unprecedented renewal. There are many forms of renewal within global Christianity, including evangelical movements, liturgical renewal, Bible-study fellowships and house church movements. One of the most significant is the Pentecostal/Charismatic renewal which coincide with the end of the 100-year period we have been reflecting on. The percentage of Christians involved in this renewal is shown in Slide 8. The focus of the renewal is clearly in the Global South where the majority of its practitioners live and where it is growing the fastest. It is also interesting to see that Southern languages dominate the list of the most Renewalists by language

So that would be Boenke and Hinn and all their nutjob mates with their silly Fire of God concerts wouldn't it?

Mike...for the love of......can you tell me how to put links in my posts so they dont goof up plz.

Cheers....

Doc.

 

[Thranduil]

Mike...all I saw about what kinda church is rockin it out there is this bit...



So that would be Boenke and Hinn and all their nutjob mates with their silly Fire of God concerts wouldn't it?

Mike...for the love of......can you tell me how to put links in my posts so they dont goof up plz.

Cheers....

Doc.

You mean like this Doc?
http://www.christianforums.net/f20/decline-christianity-31237/
You've done this in other threads so maybe I'm confused.

 

[jasoncran]

i have no love for hinn. but i know that lord does use modern gifts.

if not show me the verse that states that we are in that which is perfect and have all understanding, if that was immediately after paul's death or john's then we have some serious problems.

 

[Thranduil]

Isn't it safe to say that the decline of Christianity, in it's truest form, is actually a falling away from the faith?

One might say a person who falls away never had any faith, or perhaps they had more doubt than faith.

When I consider the fact that Jesus said to those he healed that it was THEIR faith that had healed them, I am aware that Jesus is also expressing the fact that the recipient had no doubt. The healing took place because they had no doubt and truly believed.

As per:

James 1:6 (NIV) But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Ephesians 4:14 (NIV) Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

Matthew 24:10 (NIV) At that time many will turn away from the faith and betray and hate each other.

I sandwiched Paul's statement in there to point out that he never mentions faith, yet he clearly implies that to be mature in Christ is to not be suckered in by doubts.

It becomes clear throughout scripture that faith is to believe without doubt, Hebrews chapter 11 where numerous examples are given of faith throughout God's work; a faith that is found in the believer.

My over-all point being that a decline in Christianity is the same as a decline in true faith; the faith that believes implicitly without doubt.

My second point being that we have different measures of faith, and one might say that a great measure of faith is one in hand with very little doubt.
Or perhaps I should say it this way, so as to make sure most know where I'm coming from, that 100% faith is equal to 0% doubt, and 100% doubt is the same as 0% or no faith.

This leads me to what I see and think about a lot within the body of Christ; that there is doubt at various levels and then there is faith at various levels.
That some Christians may believe they have great faith, but in truth have more doubt than they are willing to examine in truth;

A Decline in Christianity.

Virtually anyone can go from thread to thread, topic to topic, and see disagreements in prophetic interpretations, and also see that some just plain insist they are right, when others insist that that person is wrong about what they believe to be right about. So which is truth? Are we so certain that we have a faith that truly believes what will happen will come to pass?

When it comes to the second coming of Christ, it is usually agreed by all; YES.

But when it comes to the chronology of events that lead up to Christ's return, we find it hard to believe and agree with one another. These uncertainties lead to speculation, and what one holds to as truth and what another believes becomes divided in what? Doubt.

It's NOT in faith, that's for sure. Absolute certainty is in faith, and absolute certainty does not doubt God's will, nor His Word. Nor His prophesies. Absolute faith believes and receives.

What I'm getting at is that the decline of Christianity is one and the same as a decline in faith, a decline in certainty, a decline in understanding, a refusal to believe what will happen can happen any other way than the way the individual believes. It ultimately has to become an arrogance that insists on it's own way which is a walk into darkness and away from faith, a decline in Christianity.

Isn't it interesting that so many are so certain they understand, and it's the OTHER GUY who doesn't get it. That the decline of Christianity is outside the church instead of within.

How can there be a decline in Christianity?

 

[Pard]

Thran,

You are right. It is a decline in faith and this decline is perpetuated by secularists. I am astounded by what many Christians say and I have no doubt it is because we are raised in a society that frowns on things like healing and tongues. Someone on this board commented that people speaking in tongues or going to healing meetings are just crazy and mildly retarded. That is what most people think as well.

Doubt is the problem. I must admit I doubt also, but I recognize it and I am working on fortifying myself in the Word. It is an on going process and I would say the decline is accepting doubt rather than the Word!

 

[theLords]

than maybe this thread should be retitled "the decline in Christian morals" ?

 

[Nathan]

Thran,

You are right. It is a decline in faith and this decline is perpetuated by secularists. I am astounded by what many Christians say and I have no doubt it is because we are raised in a society that frowns on things like healing and tongues. Someone on this board commented that people speaking in tongues or going to healing meetings are just crazy and mildly retarded. That is what most people think as well.

Doubt is the problem. I must admit I doubt also, but I recognize it and I am working on fortifying myself in the Word. It is an on going process and I would say the decline is accepting doubt rather than the Word!

That is sick and uncalled for. What is blatantly upsetting is the fact that most truly "retarded" people probably have more Joy and Peace than we "normal" people could ever hope to have. I have pondered them sometimes...and I have come to the conclusion that they are the purest of pure in heart. There is no deception in them. Some people....2

I agree with the fact that a decline if faith has to do with a decline of Christianity. But I do not think it is from doubt. Doubt is healthful. Yes, I know it sounds crazy, but read into this for a minute.

Doubt, in the life of a Believer, causes us to search, to seek, to ask, to know. Now...in the life of an unbeliever it is not good. But...once that doubt has caused the true and sincere seeking in the life of a believer, faith moves in.

Faith is from God. All faith is from God. We accept it, or reject it. What we have done is pervert it into a form that man conjures up. There is only ONE Faith. There is not any more. Now, when that person has accepted faith from God, he must "use it or loose it"...lol.

Therefore the words penned by James. When a person asks "in" faith, he is not asking in the limbo of doubt. James draws a distinction here. Those who have the faith to ask, and those who do not have the faith to ask. If you do not have the faith, given from God, Do not ask. If you do have the faith, given from God. ASK!

The only cause that the Bible gives for "falling away" is a unbelief. Do not confuse this with doubt. Unbelief is the complete opposite of belief. Its like black and white. Doubt resides in the middle. Its not a good place to be, but it "works out for the good" when you receive the faith God is faithful to give you because of your doubt.

Oh...the disciples and others were always rebuked for their doubt. But what would happen afterward? Jesus would "give" them the faith to believe Him. God cannot do anything with unbelief.

Why the decline is happening is because false faith is being exposed for what it is. We have so abandoned the purity of the Gospel that aside from the miraculous outpourings of God, people are not being given the truth of the Good news that they may TRULY believe(posses the Faith).

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the words of Christ. What has happened is that there is a lack of truth being preached, and therefore faith cannot enter where God's Word does not abide. True Faith that is. People "believe" what they hear...but becuase it is false....it does not abide....and they "fall" away.

If we could only have FAITH in the promise of God that says;

Is 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

When we respond by simple obedience to the Words of God(Faith) then they will accomplish that which they are set to do.

Is 55:12-13
“For you shall go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and the hills before you
shall break forth into singing,
and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress;
instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle;
and it shall make a name for the Lord,
an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.â€

Although a falling away of the Faith is predicted to happen, it does not mean that He will not save those who come to Him. So many struggle through in wonder of Salvation, when Faith is waiting to take hold of their life, and produce in them fruit, and be to them an everlasting sign. It all comes by Faith, and it all comes from God.

 

[Strangelove]

You are right. It is a decline in faith and this decline is perpetuated by secularists. I am astounded by what many Christians say and I have no doubt it is because we are raised in a society that frowns on things like healing and tongues.

By secularists do you also mean false religious teachers? Would you class them as secularists?

Also, what is meant when you say healing and tongues? I dont understand what these terms are referring to./..///// especially "tongues". Whats that?

 

[Strangelove]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the words of Christ. What has happened is that there is a lack of truth being preached, and therefore faith cannot enter where God's Word does not abide. True Faith that is. People "believe" what they hear...but becuase it is false....it does not abide....and they "fall" away.

Yes agree!.........................strongly agree.

False faith is the biggest danger in my opinion.

Salvation prayer and fake public stage salvation events being the 2 major examples of these.

Anything that involves people thinking they are walking with Christ when they havn't laid eyes on the Gospels is dangerous.

 

[Bazz1040]

Of course we know that for the end times to be upon us, Christianity has to decline, so the one world religion can take over...

Do you all find it amazing that we have lived this in our own short life times?

It seems as though after 1948 when Israel became a state and that Bible prophecy was fulfilled America began a steady decline.

the 1950's - predominately quiet, the calm before the storm; playboy published it's first issue setting the stage for...

the 1960's - the vietnam war, prayer to the Christian God is taken out of schools, the feminist 'burn your bra' movement began, hippies, drug culture, that oh so evil tap your foot make you gyrate rock and roll!

the 1970's - harder rock (love the zep) more drugs, aids

the 1980's - big hair rock, bad fashion choices (spandex, really?) MTV (the spawn of satan who cursed us with jersey shore, you will pay, satan, you will pay)

the 1990's - no, i did not have sexual relations with that woman, gangsta rap

the 2000's - terrorism, economic depression, the entire world despises America and the Jews (nothing new there actually)

All jokes aside, it's amazing how steadily each decade has declined. i remember growing up and being allowed to ride my bike around and come in as it got dark. my kids won't be allowed to play on the front lawn if they're not supervised.

as hard as it is to accept, i'm happy that the Lord is getting ready to establish His Kingdom on earth :D

anyone else want to contribute with their own observations?

The good news is that it is during that period that the masses will be converted. The Church grows when it is under pressure and at that time God's people will be persecuted. But its not God's people alone will suffer at the hands of the Beast power, many many none believers will and they will be willing to listen to what God has to say to them via His people and they will repent.

 

[Nathan]

Yes agree!.........................strongly agree.

False faith is the biggest danger in my opinion.

Salvation prayer and fake public stage salvation events being the 2 major examples of these.

Anything that involves people thinking they are walking with Christ when they havn't laid eyes on the Gospels is dangerous.

Amen! And that is precisely why I attend a local fellowship. I want to be available to help those who think that they believed, but are not sure what they believed, or why they believed it. I do not think that God just lets our adversary lead people away with out using the rest of us to bring the truth of the Gospel to them.

I know for experience that after a "stage profession"...or two...or three...one can still truly experience Salvation because of the Gospel. In fact, it was through those false professions that I learned what it meant to believe. I was serious about those professions, completely serious. But God just did not have me in the place I needed to be yet to have Faith given to me.

One day I am going to write my testimony down and post it, but it will take a while...lol.

I attend a fellowship so that when those people come down off the stage, when a week later they are wondering why they did not change, when a month later they are questioning their salvation, when two months later they are questioning Faith.... I go to a public gathering of believers so that I can serve Christ by presenting the GOOD NEWS.

If I did not go, then the ones who are there to rob people of the Gospel will convince them that they have Salvation and there is no need of examination. The false teachers will continue to lead people astray. But just as Jesus would go to the public Temple, and just as the disciples would in turn go and sit at the synagogues and teach. So do I. Why go out on a street corner and try to call to people who could care less. Why not go to where people are already gathering to search for truth?

Please, no one take this the wrong way, I am not knocking street preaching in anyway. It serves its purpose. But what our places of gatherings are missing in todays culture is depth. Knowledge is lacking, people are perishing. If God has so richly blessed me to dive into the depths of His wisdom, I would be a fool to not share with others. I would be like the man who went and hid his talent, afraid that people might misrepresent what I am saying.

If we have not come to the conclusion yet...let it be known that the "churches" of today are not anything like the New Testament gathering of believers. They are like the synagogues of those days.

 

[Strangelove]

Amen! And that is precisely why I attend a local fellowship. I want to be available to help those who think that they believed, but are not sure what they believed, or why they believed it. I do not think that God just lets our adversary lead people away with out using the rest of us to bring the truth of the Gospel to them.

I know for experience that after a "stage profession"...or two...or three...one can still truly experience Salvation because of the Gospel. In fact, it was through those false professions that I learned what it meant to believe. I was serious about those professions, completely serious. But God just did not have me in the place I needed to be yet to have Faith given to me.

One day I am going to write my testimony down and post it, but it will take a while...lol.

I attend a fellowship so that when those people come down off the stage, when a week later they are wondering why they did not change, when a month later they are questioning their salvation, when two months later they are questioning Faith.... I go to a public gathering of believers so that I can serve Christ by presenting the GOOD NEWS.

If I did not go, then the ones who are there to rob people of the Gospel will convince them that they have Salvation and there is no need of examination. The false teachers will continue to lead people astray. But just as Jesus would go to the public Temple, and just as the disciples would in turn go and sit at the synagogues and teach. So do I. Why go out on a street corner and try to call to people who could care less. Why not go to where people are already gathering to search for truth?

Please, no one take this the wrong way, I am not knocking street preaching in anyway. It serves its purpose. But what our places of gatherings are missing in todays culture is depth. Knowledge is lacking, people are perishing. If God has so richly blessed me to dive into the depths of His wisdom, I would be a fool to not share with others. I would be like the man who went and hid his talent, afraid that people might misrepresent what I am saying.

If we have not come to the conclusion yet...let it be known that the "churches" of today are not anything like the New Testament gathering of believers. They are like the synagogues of those days.

Couldn't agree more.

God Bless you Nate in all that you do.

People must be pointed to the Gospels above all else. Its so crucial.

I convinced a fellow Jew to read the NT when I talked to him in my shop last week. First time for me. I applaud you for making a difference.

Everybody now 1........2........3...........JESUS!

 

[Nathan]

Couldn't agree more.

God Bless you Nate in all that you do.

People must be pointed to the Gospels above all else. Its so crucial.

I convinced a fellow Jew to read the NT when I talked to him in my shop last week. First time for me. I applaud you for making a difference.

Everybody now 1........2........3...........JESUS!

Praise God. I cannot say I have seen a difference in what I do. I have yet to really see the outcome of what it is I do. I just do it because I have been called to.

 

[Thranduil]

By secularists do you also mean false religious teachers? Would you class them as secularists?

Also, what is meant when you say healing and tongues? I dont understand what these terms are referring to./..///// especially "tongues". Whats that?

Paul addresses speaking in tongues and explaining it quite thoroughly in 1 Corinthians chapter 14

 

[Thranduil]

Amen! And that is precisely why I attend a local fellowship. I want to be available to help those who think that they believed, but are not sure what they believed, or why they believed it. I do not think that God just lets our adversary lead people away with out using the rest of us to bring the truth of the Gospel to them.

I know for experience that after a "stage profession"...or two...or three...one can still truly experience Salvation because of the Gospel. In fact, it was through those false professions that I learned what it meant to believe. I was serious about those professions, completely serious. But God just did not have me in the place I needed to be yet to have Faith given to me.

One day I am going to write my testimony down and post it, but it will take a while...lol.

I attend a fellowship so that when those people come down off the stage, when a week later they are wondering why they did not change, when a month later they are questioning their salvation, when two months later they are questioning Faith.... I go to a public gathering of believers so that I can serve Christ by presenting the GOOD NEWS.

If I did not go, then the ones who are there to rob people of the Gospel will convince them that they have Salvation and there is no need of examination. The false teachers will continue to lead people astray. But just as Jesus would go to the public Temple, and just as the disciples would in turn go and sit at the synagogues and teach. So do I. Why go out on a street corner and try to call to people who could care less. Why not go to where people are already gathering to search for truth?

Please, no one take this the wrong way, I am not knocking street preaching in anyway. It serves its purpose. But what our places of gatherings are missing in todays culture is depth. Knowledge is lacking, people are perishing. If God has so richly blessed me to dive into the depths of His wisdom, I would be a fool to not share with others. I would be like the man who went and hid his talent, afraid that people might misrepresent what I am saying.

If we have not come to the conclusion yet...let it be known that the "churches" of today are not anything like the New Testament gathering of believers. They are like the synagogues of those days.

Amen to attending a fellowship of believers! We are admonished not to neglect the fellowship and also to praise God in worship together.

I underlined and made bold your comment about writing out your testimony;
In light of what I previously said about doubt and lack of faith, I can say that writing out my testimony would be as pointless as speaking it out. Just one small part of my testimony is that Christians lack the faith to believe it, and this amazes me.

It's like, "What part of what God said don't you get?" We know God chooses people, we know He appoints them to works of service to Him and for Him. We all believe what He has said in the Word, scripture, but watch what happens when discussing prophecy, all of the sudden it's unclear and people have their doubts as to it's meaning.

As I have said, I have yet to find anyone who believes me among true Spirit filled Christians, it's all doubt without faith to believe what God has said He will do. They not only want proof, but refuse to believe without the proof.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A lot of people believe we are living in the last days, the end of the age, the end times, however you prefer to call it, but they turn right around and deny the fulfillment of prophesy as it comes to pass and would rather argue it. I've learned that the only thing that will get all true believers on the same page is the Great Tribulation, but guess what? Many will argue that it's not upon them for months and even years WHILE its happening before they wake up.

Prophecy gets fulfilled when ALL the right people, are in the right place, at the appointed time, speaking what they are foretold to say. Does anyone believe God will have in place the right ingredients? I can hear all the YES', and the however's, and buts that follow their yes.

Christians want answers so they can understand the prophesies, NOT!

 

[Nathan]

Amen to attending a fellowship of believers! We are admonished not to neglect the fellowship and also to praise God in worship together.

I underlined and made bold your comment about writing out your testimony;
In light of what I previously said about doubt and lack of faith, I can say that writing out my testimony would be as pointless as speaking it out. Just one small part of my testimony is that Christians lack the faith to believe it, and this amazes me.

It's like, "What part of what God said don't you get?" We know God chooses people, we know He appoints them to works of service to Him and for Him. We all believe what He has said in the Word, scripture, but watch what happens when discussing prophecy, all of the sudden it's unclear and people have their doubts as to it's meaning.

As I have said, I have yet to find anyone who believes me among true Spirit filled Christians, it's all doubt without faith to believe what God has said He will do. They not only want proof, but refuse to believe without the proof.

Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A lot of people believe we are living in the last days, the end of the age, the end times, however you prefer to call it, but they turn right around and deny the fulfillment of prophesy as it comes to pass and would rather argue it. I've learned that the only thing that will get all true believers on the same page is the Great Tribulation, but guess what? Many will argue that it's not upon them for months and even years WHILE its happening before they wake up.

Prophecy gets fulfilled when ALL the right people, are in the right place, at the appointed time, speaking what they are foretold to say. Does anyone believe God will have in place the right ingredients? I can hear all the YES', and the however's, and buts that follow their yes.

Christians want answers so they can understand the prophesies, NOT!

Very interesting...What do you mean by the above underlined/bold statements? I am quite intrigued, and wish to know. This is a serious inquire. I am not looking for answers per say. That is, I am not sure exactly what you are referring too. Maybe I missed a thread or post somewhere. Forgive my ignorance.

 

[Nathan]

A Decline in Christianity.

Virtually anyone can go from thread to thread, topic to topic, and see disagreements in prophetic interpretations, and also see that some just plain insist they are right, when others insist that that person is wrong about what they believe to be right about. So which is truth? Are we so certain that we have a faith that truly believes what will happen will come to pass?

When it comes to the second coming of Christ, it is usually agreed by all; YES.

But when it comes to the chronology of events that lead up to Christ's return, we find it hard to believe and agree with one another. These uncertainties lead to speculation, and what one holds to as truth and what another believes becomes divided in what? Doubt.

It's NOT in faith, that's for sure. Absolute certainty is in faith, and absolute certainty does not doubt God's will, nor His Word. Nor His prophesies. Absolute faith believes and receives.

What I'm getting at is that the decline of Christianity is one and the same as a decline in faith, a decline in certainty, a decline in understanding, a refusal to believe what will happen can happen any other way than the way the individual believes. It ultimately has to become an arrogance that insists on it's own way which is a walk into darkness and away from faith, a decline in Christianity.

Isn't it interesting that so many are so certain they understand, and it's the OTHER GUY who doesn't get it. That the decline of Christianity is outside the church instead of within.

How can there be a decline in Christianity?

Me like a lot!!!!!!!! Sorry, in an effort to go back and see what I have missed I came across this. I am still interested in what you are talking about in the previous post I made.

But this, brother, is 100% TRUTH. I know that just because "I" say it does not make it so, but this is pure...

This is precisely why I do not make accusations without being 100% sure in the faith God gives me. Ok...let me say that I do my best. There have been times I have slipped up and gone into the flesh on some topics. But I am one who see's things in black and white. Light and dark. Right or Wrong. And that sometimes makes me bull headed.

I have always found it amazing, and rather confusing, when people will tell me..."we will just have to agree to disagree". Huh? Ok. So one of us has to be right, and one has to be wrong. Or, the only other option is that we are both wrong. Some say that there are "grey" areas.....

Ok...let me be completely blunt while holding my tongue...grey areas are areas that are WRONG...darkness....blackness... "Grey" areas are peoples excuses for not seeking the full Light.

I do think doubt can be a good thing though. As long as it is not stayed in.

I doubt the way some people describe the "events" leading up to the second coming. But I have complete Faith He will come again. Now, am I going to stay in that doubt? No. I am going to search for myself. The doubt in others will drive me to complete reliance on God.

So, with that said, the only doubt that is good, is one that doubts man. What we so easily loose sight of is the fact that God GIVES us FAITH. He puts it into us. So when we doubt man it gives Faith the opportunity it needs to grow in our lives.

We, the way we are made, need to believe in something. Which is precisely why you will see so many bull headed people with their opinions, and could care less about finding truth between your and their ideas.

So the fact that we believe in something means that in order for us to have the one and only truth grow in us, we have to doubt all that is not true. There is always only one truth. But you can have many lies.

Back to the "we will have to agree to disagree", this is exactly what I see in your statement Thran. Each of us has an opinion and the other does not want to compromise. Its ironic. In an effort to not "doubt" our faith, we are stubborn and stuck in a place that cannot grow fruit.

But...if we would take the approach of earnestly seeking the truth, agreeing with each other that there is but only one truth, and it is NOT OK for us to "agree to disagree", that it might take time, and sparks may fly, but we will pursue the truth. If we could only come to that point in our Christianity...man...how solid of a fellowship would that form?

 

[Mike]

Back to the "we will have to agree to disagree", this is exactly what I see in your statement Thran. Each of us has an opinion and the other does not want to compromise. Its ironic. In an effort to not "doubt" our faith, we are stubborn and stuck in a place that cannot grow fruit.

But...if we would take the approach of earnestly seeking the truth, agreeing with each other that there is but only one truth, and it is NOT OK for us to "agree to disagree", that it might take time, and sparks may fly, but we will pursue the truth. If we could only come to that point in our Christianity...man...how solid of a fellowship would that form?

NH, in matters that impact our salvation, I'd agree with you. But let me ask you this... Is it better to live in harmony with our fellow believers and set aside differences that don't impact salvation or continue in strife so that "sparks may fly" as you put it? Take the literal 6 24-hour periods of creation. If someone takes 2 Peter 3 and believes a day is of 1000 years to the Lord and another believes in the literal 24-hour days - but they both hold agreement in the Gospel, which is tact is better? To continue to hammer away, or set it aside and just focus together on God.

There are many issues that sidetrack people from uniting together in Christ, so you have denominations because one can't possibly worship under the same roof as another who doesn't agree with them on every point. Do you believe Jesus prayed that we would all worship as one in that we would all agree on everything, or could it be that we would come together in spite of these differences and seek His Face as united children of God? Again, I'm talking about non-salvation issues.

I'll argue with people on matters of substance such as the Divinity of Christ, but at a certain point, I'll have to put that in the Hands of the Holy Spirit to settle on his heart. This is much different. I'll tell them I'm certain they are wrong, and I'll continue to pray for them. But I can not endlessly hash out essential doctrine with them.

Thanks for hearing me out, brother!

 

[Nathan]

I hear ya Mike. I do. And don't ever worry about offending me by 'not agreeing'...lol

I completely understand what your saying, about the non salvation issues. I do. And I will be real honest here and say that those are the ones I let sit on the back burner and I usually run out of gas before they get dealt with. If you know what I mean.

But here is the simple truth, and I think you would agree? That there is only one truth. So, to use your example of creation. Either it was 6 literal, sun up-sun down, days. Or it was 6-100 year periods. Or, both parties are wrong and it was something else. Lol. Even though its not funny, sometimes I have to laugh.

There are a lot of opinions out there. I work with a guy who believes that it was over the span of millions or billions of years. So heres the point. Not everyone can be right. Right? lol. However, it is not about who is right or wrong. Or at least it shouldn't be. It should be about discovering the truth.

So you believe one thing, and I believe another. Lets take the time to come to a conclusion. Some where, at some time, divisions started taking place. At one point in time...there can be no disagreement...that believers were all united in the faith. Ok, so that was a really long time ago. lol.

God's will is for us to be "like minded";

1 Co 1:10 "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment."

Php 1:27-28 "Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God."

1 Pe 3:8 "Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind."

Now I understand, as you do, that the first reference is to those divisions about who they were following. When they should have had the mind that they were following Christ.

But what these all have in common, and where division should be unacceptable, is how we follow Christ. Creation time period...it does not matter...unless it does. Ok, so lets say that it happened over a period of 6 billion million years. Ahh...that means that we could have evolved...I mean...it leaves room for one to think that could be right.

I think that all the answers to all of our divisions are in the Bible. I think it is precisely why they were written down instead of passed down verbally. We refuse to take the time. We consider it a waste of time. We get frustrated with one another and decide to "let bygones be bygones", but they do not become bygones...they stay present...and cause divisions.

I do think that we can have our differences of opinions and still worship together. But we don't...lol. We let those differences effect us. I also think that there are going to be quite a few things we may never be able to come to agreement on even if we spent years upon years of study in. But I have to wonder, would God move supernaturally in our midst if He saw that we were striving to be of one mind?

If we came together and desired to know nothing other than His truth.....

This is my heart, it has been my heart for a long time now. Where as divisions will likely always be in our midst. And where as we will always make them seem insignificant. And where as we will always say we worship in unity regardless.

The truth is divisions do not have to be in our midst, divisions are not insignificant, and we will never worship Him in the way He intended while there are divisions. However, that is why He is coming again...Praise God!

lol. But we will even use that for an excuse for not striving together. The truth is there are a lot of "non-salvation divisions", as we deem it, that are indeed key to salvation. I sit in amazement as I conversed with the pastor at our fellowship over emails. I was working some things over in my head and decided to ask him for his thoughts. We went back and forth, disagreeing, and finally he got frustrated and asked me whats the point.

He did not 'feel' it was a topic worth digging deep. And he had already made up his mind, so it did not matter. Then he said something that amazed me. He said,

"I do not have to stretch to far to think that you perhaps may have some issues with the security of the believer, but I may be being presumptuous here. If you do, you would not be the first church member who felt that way. LOL! Hey, my son in law is a Nazarene!"

Then he left it at that. Ok, so now it doesn't matter about things of salvation? Blew me away. As if the security, or lack of it, or anything to do with it was just a varied opinion that some have and is not worth pursuing. I may seem a little hard about it, but I am not. I have come to understand that there are some that just do not see discussions, about issues they are not going over in their minds, as not important to discuss.

But then, you do have the flip side that we cannot possible sit down and try to convince everyone on the earth to be of one mind. But. Here is where my heart is. If there is a division where two people could agree to search out the others point of view, maybe we could spend some time coming to agreements on things that pertain to Godliness, and less time on things that pertain to worldliness.

There is a lot more on my heart about this. But I will have to get them through my mind, straighten them out, before my fingers can type them and make any sense...lol

Mike...we will just have to agree to disagree for right now....LOL :toofunny I am just playing with you.