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Bible Study The Denominations Speak: The Sabbath

Catholic Crusader said:
And what about those who don't worship on Sunday are they Christians? Does worshiping on a particular determine if you are a Christian or not?

Thats sidestepping the issue. I will not be put in a position to judge someone's heart. I am merely saying that Christians are not called to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

The commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day was given to Moses: It is from the 4th covenant of the 6 covenants given throughout salvation history, and was for the children of Israel.

The 6th covenant, instituted by Christ, has no such commandment. Interestingly, before Christ's covenant was established in His Blood, He left out the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath in this little give and take:

[quote:c4ebc]Matt 19: 16-22: And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but (Q)if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
[/quote:c4ebc]

And I am simply saying that Christians are not called to worship on any particular day; they are at liberty to use any day of the week, Saturday including, if that is what they so chose or Sunday.....or Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and so on. And just as Jesus never left any commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy, He also never gave any commandment to observe Sunday after He rose from the grave. The same argument that can be used to dispel the Sabbath Day can be used to dispel Sunday worship as well. No day in New Testament was given preference over another.

The Sabbathtarians or those who believe that the seventh Day Sabbath is the day to worship God on don’t have the corner stone on legalism; some who worship on Sunday have a form of legalism when they insist that Sunday is the day to worship.
 
...And I am simply saying that Christians are not called to worship on any particular day; they are at liberty to use any day of the week, Saturday including, if that is what they so chose or Sunday.....or Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and so on....

Oh. I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. :sad
 
Catholic Crusader said:
...And I am simply saying that Christians are not called to worship on any particular day; they are at liberty to use any day of the week, Saturday including, if that is what they so chose or Sunday.....or Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and so on....

Oh. I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. :sad

I'm glad I was able to make myself clear to you on my position. :D
 
edited by Stovebolts to put CC in quotes for clarity
Catholic Crusader said:
"So you are saying that around 98% of Christianity is being led by a false spirit? Thats quite judgemental, isnt it? Have you ever considered the posiblitiy that you have confused Jewish law with what we Christians are supposed to be doing? "
Well yes and no. They are following a tradition that was inspired by a false spirit. If they were to do some earnest searching and pray their minds be open to understanding and learning, and truth they too would be worshipping on the 7th day Sabbath. And to set one thing straight I don't believe that keeping the Sab. is going to give us eternal life.


"Matt 19: 16-22: And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but (Q)if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property."

I am not surprised that this is the text given. Most everyone tries to use it. It only states the last 6 commandments. These commandments are related to how man treats his fellow man. I would have to say that He did a good job at keeping up with the 1st 4, and was lagging in the way he viewed his fellow man or treated his fellow man. You can tell by the way that text ends he had a real problem with self. He was wealthy and well absorbed into his wealth. If he wasn't selfish with it Jesus wouldn't have had to tell him to sell what he had. A selfish person is not thoughtful of his neighbor. But in no way does this tell us that we do not have to keep the Sabbath.
 
Acts 20:7 is not a Sabbath gathering. The 7th of the 8 verses mentioning the 1st day of the week reports a meeting in which the disciples broke bread. For some, breaking bread is an act certifying that Sunday was the new day of rest. However, we see in the second verse that the disciples were gathering and breaking bread every day!

1 cor. 16:2 Is not about worship time. There is nothing in that text to tie this in with worship. Paul does not speak of a meeting at all of any kind. He actually advises the Christians in Corinth to store up offerings, each in their own home for future collection.

Revelation 1:10 many take this expression to refer to Sunday, the new day of rest for the Christians. If this expression should be referring to a specific day of the would it be Sunday? According to the following texts The 7th day Sab. is the only day that is considered the Lord's day. Ex. 20:10)(Isa. 58:13)(Matt. 24:20)(Romans 11:13)(Acts 20:29,30)(

The abolishing of circumcission First of all it was not truly abolished. It was just not deamed necessary. It was representitive of our circumcised heart thru Christ. If the Jews were to deam it as necessary then they were showing their lack of need for Christ.
 
edited by Stovebolts to fix quote
Catholic Crusader said:
And what about those who don't worship on Sunday are they Christians? Does worshiping on a particular determine if you are a Christian or not?

No I don't think a Sabbath keeper is more of a Christian than a non keeper. I do believe that being a Christian is more than a belief. It is a relationship with God and His Son Christ. I do however believe that our worship techniques and beliefs will determine where we stand when Jesus comes. In this matter no one can tell us we are right or wrong. It is a matter of conviction and what we choose to do with it.

Catholic Crusader said:
Thats sidestepping the issue. I will not be put in a position to judge someone's heart. I am merely saying that Christians are not called to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Actually the Sabbath was not originated for the Jews. It was originated at the time of Adam and Eve. After being in Egypt for all those years the people forgot the commandments and had to remember and learn to live them all over again. Because of their lack God took the time to write it out with His own finger on stone. If one were to read Isa. 56:2-7 they would see that the Sabbath was to include anyone that was joined to God, not just the Jew. In the old testament the STRANGER didn't referr to the Jews. It referred to any born outside the Jewish people.

The commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day was given to Moses: It is from the 4th covenant of the 6 covenants given throughout salvation history, and was for the children of Israel. Read the paragraph above
 
Matt.2:27,28.....And He said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath
this verse does not say the Sabbath was made for the Jews, but for man. The word man takes in all the human beings on earth. That alone tells me the Sabbath is not just a Jewish thing. It is meant to be universal.

Matt. 22:37-40 "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law ant the prophets." Now this is one that is used a lot to prove the commandments have been tossed asside and these two take the place of the ten. Actually Christ was letting us know that the 10 com. hang upon these two principles: Love for God and Love for man. The 1st 4 sum up our duties to God and the last 6 sum up our duty to man.

Everyone in here will agree that the 10 com. were up and active in the OT. Well I ran across this one day while reading my Bible and it sounded a little familiar. Deuteronomy 6:5and 19:18Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.......Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Christ was repeating from the OT in order to reinforce that standard of thought upon the people of the day. It didn't mean in Christ's day that the com. were no longer in existence, no more than it meant that in the ot.
This is my last reply to this post for a while anyway. I feel that somethings can be over done if done to much. May we all be convicted in right thinking and choosing of God's will. God bless all Christians that have posted the subject and the numerous replies.
 
rainbow_promise said:
"So you are saying that around 98% of Christianity is being led by a false spirit? Thats quite judgemental, isnt it? Have you ever considered the posiblitiy that you have confused Jewish law with what we Christians are supposed to be doing? "
Well yes and no. They are following a tradition that was inspired by a false spirit.....
Whats the difference. And how do you absolutely proclaim you are right and we are wrong? You probably dont believe in papal infallibility, so I assume you do not believe that you are infallible either. So you must leave open the possibility that you are wrong. Many theologians - Catholic AND protestant - base Sunday worship on the scriptures, NOT on a tradition. You do them a disservice to say that they just blindly follow a tradition.

So, as usual, it comes down to one person's interpretation over another. Correct?
 
rainbow_promise said:
...I am merely saying that Christians are not called to observe the Jewish Sabbath.
Actually the Sabbath was not originated for the Jews. It was originated at the time of Adam and Eve...


Ah, but you keep putting in terms of obeying the commandments, and the ten commandments were given to Moses as part of the 4th covenant of the 6 covenants given throughout salvation history, and was for the children of Israel (as I said in a previous post).

Again: The 6th covenant, instituted by Christ, has no such commandment. And before Christ's covenant was established in His Blood, He left out the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath here when asked which commandments to keep:


Matt 19: 16-22: And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
 
Catholic Crusader said:
[quote="rainbow_promise":144f9]
"So you are saying that around 98% of Christianity is being led by a false spirit? Thats quite judgemental, isnt it? Have you ever considered the posiblitiy that you have confused Jewish law with what we Christians are supposed to be doing? "
Well yes and no. They are following a tradition that was inspired by a false spirit.....
Whats the difference. And how do you absolutely proclaim you are right and we are wrong? You probably dont believe in papal infallibility, so I assume you do not believe that you are infallible either. So you must leave open the possibility that you are wrong. Many theologians - Catholic AND protestant - base Sunday worship on the scriptures, NOT on a tradition. You do them a disservice to say that they just blindly follow a tradition.

So, as usual, it comes down to one person's interpretation over another. Correct?[/quote:144f9]
[*]

I decided out of lack of anything to do at the time to stop in. I am not right, you are not right: the Word of God is right. I choose to follow the Word.
I have my own Catachism book given to me by an aunt. My dad was Catholic mom was Baptist. Neither one kept the Sabbath. Well actually they kept nothing to be truthful. All the hundreds of relatives on my dad's side of the family were and still are Catholic. I had a cousin that was a nun (after something like 30 years she gave that up to become a school teacher. She didn't give up her faith. All I knew from young up was the Catholic faith and beliefs.
When mom and dad moved to waterford Pa. I received a little pocket sized Bible. We got one every year. I don't know why I was driven to read it but I was. When I became an adult I purchased a reg. Bible. I kept reading and studying on my own. I came to several understandings with out consulting anyone.... I got an understanding of the 144,000,,,I learned about good and bad meats.... I learned that the Sabbath was kept in the New Test. and not just by the Jews. I learned that the use of idols for worship is wrong... I learned the truth about death and what happens to us when we die. It took a long time tho for me to admit that Sun. wasn't the Sabbath. These were not things anyone told me. They were learned from what I read in God's word. If we don't read the Bible with an open mind we will not be able to learn the truth.
I say the Sun Sabbath is tradition of man because it is a man made day. The only way God would ever expect a true follower to reverance a day other than the one He chose would be if He claimed that change openly. The 10 com. reflect God's unchanging character. This is in God's word. The Bible also tellls us that God doesn't changed. He remains the same. For Him to give His conscent for the change in any one of His 10 com. He would also have to change some aspect of His character. That would then prove the Bible to be lying about God's unchanging character. This is what I learned that opened my mind to the Sab. truth.
My dad's side of the famil;y is quite large. They are all Catholics, and I love them all dearly. Their system of belief doesn't change that. Because of family and a few friends I have become acquainted wither several priests and many nuns. They are wonderful people filled with God's love. I don't condemn people for their beilef. I accept them. Yet on the other hand I can't deny the truth. I don't know you very well. I do know that we differ in a lot we believe in. I do know from your many posts in this forum that you are a loyal and devout Person in Christ. Because of that I know that you live up to what you believe to be truth. That is more than I can say about a lot of people I know personally. Sticking by our Savior will eventually bring the believer into more knowledge and understanding. May God bless you dearly...

Sandi
 
Well, I learned a little something too, about Adventist Propaganda: Your guru Ms. White claimed to receive the first of several hundred visions in December of 1844. She gained recognition in Adventist circles as a prophetess and became the church’s leader. Over the next few decades, she provided guidance on almost every aspect of belief and worship, writing over fifty books commenting on health, education, finance, and other topics. Her works are held by her followers to be inerrant on matters of doctrine, as is the Bible, though they are on a slightly lower plane of honor than the Bible.

Her most important books, especially The Desire of the Ages and The Great Controversy, are frequently reprinted by Seventh-Day Adventist publishing houses in a variety of formats. They often appear with different covers and titles. For example, The Great Controversy is often marketed as America in Prophecy. They are printed whole or in excerpted form. Sometimes Ellen Gould White’s name appears on the cover, sometimes a less well-known form of her name appears (e.g., E. G. White), and sometimes her name does not appear on the outside of the book at all.

This allows Adventists to put White’s works in the hands of non-Adventists without alerting them that they are reading an Adventist publication until they are well into the work.

Adventist publishing houses also keep the terms "Seventh-Day" and "Adventist" out of their names. Typical Adventist and Adventist-related publishing houses have names including Inspiration Books, Amazing Truth Publications, Review & Herald Publishing Association, and Pilgrims’ Press.

This is because Adventists have always been regarded suspiciously by Evangelicals and have often been viewed as a fanatical cult (as have some of their offshoots, such as the Branch Davidians). Many Evangelical leaders even have assertedâ€â€incorrectlyâ€â€that Adventists are not Christians, even though they believe in Christ’s divinity and use a valid Trinitarian form of baptism.

Often Adventist-related publishing houses conduct mass mailings of their literature to every home and post office box in a community. This has been done regularly with Amazing Truth Publications’ anti-Catholic volume, National Sunday Law.


Now, Seventh-Day Adventists agree with many Catholic doctrines, including the Trinity, Christ’s divinity, the virgin birth, the atonement, a physical resurrection of the dead, and Christ’s Second Coming. They use a valid form of baptism. They believe in original sin and reject the Evangelical teaching that one can never lose one’s salvation no matter what one does (i.e., they correctly reject "once saved, always saved").

Unfortunately, they also hold many false and strange doctrines. Among these are the following: (a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be "the mark of the beast"; (d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven; (e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection; and (f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned. (For rebuttals of many of these ideas, see the Catholic Answers tracts, The Antichrist, The Hell There Is, Hunting the Whore of Babylon, The Whore of Babylon, and Sabbath or Sunday?)

Many Adventists insist that, as a matter of discipline (not doctrine), one must not eat meats considered unclean under the Mosaic Law (many endorse total vegetarianism), and one must avoid "worldly entertainments" (card-playing, dancing, smoking, drinking, reading non-religious books, listening to non-religious music, watching non-religious television, going to the movies, etc.).

Adventists also subscribe to the two Protestant shibboleths, sola scriptura (the Bible is the sole rule of faith) and sola fide (justification is by faith alone). Other Protestants, especially conservative Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, often attack Adventists on these points, claiming they do not really hold them, which is often used as "proof" that they are "a cult." However, along the spectrum of Protestantism (from high-church Lutherans and Anglicans to low-church Pentecostals and Baptists), there is little agreement about the meaning of these two phrases or about the doctrines they are supposed to represent.


As is clear from some of the beliefs listed above, Adventist theology is intensely anti-Catholic. Many Catholics who do not frequently come in contact with Adventists or their literature do not realize just how hostile they can be toward the Church.

Trying to give others the benefit of the doubt, Catholics may suppose that anti-Catholicism is part of Adventism’s radical fringe. Unfortunately, this is untrue. Adventists who are moderate on Catholicism are a minority. Anti-Catholicism characterizes the denomination because it is embraced in White’s "divinely inspired" writings. A few illustrations help indicate the scope of the problem:

"Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots . . . is further declared to be ‘that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.’ Revelation 17:4–6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome" (The Great Controversy, 338).

"It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal Church of Christ . . . and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him [Satan] through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage" (ibid., 48).

"Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time, seeing that the Protestant churches are paying her homage in their acceptance of the false Sabbath. . . . And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And has she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. . . . Rome is aiming to reestablish her power, to recover her lost supremacy" (ibid., 507–8).

"God’s word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be1 repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution" ( ibid., 508–9).

Strong stuff! Unfortunately, most Adventists believe this. Bear in mind that these quotes are not taken from an obscure work of White’s that nobody ever reads. They are from what is probably her single most popular volume, The Great Controversy.


Seventh-Day Adventism is basically consumed with the concept of the last days. It was formed from the remnants of the Millerite movement, which was created to await the world’s end. In White’s end times view, the Jewish Sabbath and the Catholic Church play prominent roles.

According to her, the papacy is the seven-headed beast from the sea in Revelation 13:1–10. Accompanying this beast is a lamb-like beast from the earth (Rev. 13:11–18). The latter causes the world to worship the former and has an image made of it. White proclaimed that the second beast is the United States (The Great Controversy, 387–8), and that it will force people to worship the papacy by "enforcing some observance which shall be an act of homage to the papacy" (ibid., 389). This observance, she says, is Sunday worship rather than Saturday worship.

White claims that the papacy changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, making this change a mark of its authority. In her view, there will come a time when the United States will establish a "national Sunday law" and compel its citizens to worship on Sunday and thus take the mark of the beast. It will not compel them to become Catholics, but to join a Protestant state-church that is an "image" of the papacy, and thus, "the image of the beast" (ibid., 382–96).

Seventh-Day Adventism cannot change its views on the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon without admitting that it was wrong on Sunday worship. It cannot admit that Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast without changing its views on the Jewish Sabbath. Seventh-Day Adventism cannot cease to be anti-Catholic without ceasing to be Seventh-Day Adventism.

There is a "moderate" wing of Adventism that is more open to Catholics as individuals (though still retaining White’s views concerning the papacy). In fact, White was willing to concede thatâ€â€in the here and now (before the end times)â€â€some Catholics are saved. She wrote that "there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before him. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than Rome, will thereby honor popery above God" (ibid., 395).

Unfortunately, this one tolerant statement is embedded in hundreds of hostile statements. While this aspect of her teaching can be played up by her more moderate followers, it is difficult for them to do so, because the whole Adventist milieu in which they exist is anti-Catholic. The group is an eschatology sect, and its central eschatological teaching, other than Christ’s Second Coming, is that the Second Coming will be preceded by a period in which the papacy will enforce Sunday worship on the world. Everyone who does not accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be killed; and everyone who does accept the papacy’s Sunday worship will be destroyed by God.

By virtue of their valid baptism, and their belief in Christ’s divinity and in the doctrine of the Trinity, Seventh-Day Adventists are both ontologically and theologically Christians. But Christians, once separated from the Church our Lord founded, are susceptible to being "tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph. 4:14).
 
This is not a SDA thread. You may start a thread on SDA teachings in Apologetics or debate a SDA member if that is your desire.

Also... STATE YOUR SOURCES! I can't make this clear enough.

Thanks.
 
Well now, I'm NOT a SDA.

but I would like to offer this: The REASON for the Sabath was NOT only a day of rest, but a day SET ASIDE by GOD HIMSELF to distinguish HIMSELF in the minds and hearts of those that KNOW Him. And WHO can SAY that it is NOT possible to become CLOSER with God by FOLLOWING His commandment concerning the Sabath?

There was OBVIOUSLY a 'reason' that the day of worship was CHANGED from Saturday to Sunday.

Can ANYONE give me a Biblical and LOGICAL answer as to WHY it was NOT maintained as the Sabath. For EVEN IF we are not to JUDGE others in days or festivals, that does NOT MEAN that it does NOT matter to GOD. Regardless of the TEACHING of those that CHOOSE to ignore MUCH of God's word, there is NO REASON that we SHOULDN'T DO that which is PLEASING to God. And IF God 'set aside' a PARTICULAR day in order to HONOR Him with worship and acknowlegement, WHY Is it SO HARD for those that DENY this to simply ACCEPT IT?

Christ NEVER stated that the Sabath is SUNDAY. He WAS a JEW and followed the 'holy days' of the Jews. Christ SAID that the He was NOT created FOR the Sabath but the Sabath FOR HIM. This ought to TELL Us 'something' other than we are FREE to worship as WE SEE FIT.

Golly guys and gals, WHO sets the rules, US or God? And WHO is it that DEEDED the Sabath AS the Sabath. NOW, common SENSE: who ALTERED this teaching and WHY? These are questions that are PARAMONT to an UNDERSTANDING of the SABATH. But HEY, if it REALLY doesn't matter to YOU, then IGNORE God's wishes. That is the nature of those that CREATE their OWN religions.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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