The depravity of men (and to what degree it goes)

[Prentis]

Hi all! This is something I was discussing and posted on another site. I thought I would bring it here because it fits well with what was being discussed in the thread 'Saved by grace not of works"

I have found it a common delusion today to believe we are so depraved we cannot even do what is right, as the publican or good Samaritan did. It is a belief that says "I can do nothing, nothing, nothing, thus any striving is foolishness". Subtly, this is used to deny the necessity of growth in Christ.

Yet the word says....

12 Sow for yourselves righteousness;
Reap in mercy;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the LORD,
Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.

We sow, we break up the ground of our heart, we seek...

 

[Prentis]

The error lies here:

Man is depraved because of his fallen nature to this point: he cannot be righteous as God, holy as God, and perfect by his own nature.
Man is not depraved to this point: he cannot seek God, he cannot be righteous like the publican or Samaritan.

Man can be righteous as the publican or Samaritan.

But to walk in the righteousness of Christ, and be as he is, the old nature must die, and he must walk by the new.

 

[Adullam]

It may be interesting to note that this sentence...


Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.


...can also mean till He come and teach righteousness to you!!!

This is alluding to the physical visitation of the Lord.

 

[Adullam]

The error lies here:

Man is depraved because of his fallen nature to this point: he cannot be righteous as God, holy as God, and perfect by his own nature.
Man is not depraved to this point: he cannot seek God, he cannot be righteous like the publican or Samaritan.

Man can be righteous as the publican or Samaritan.

But to walk in the righteousness of Christ, and be as he is, the old nature must die, and he must walk by the new.

Amen! We are not called in Christ to attain the lowest standard of righteousness...that of admitting our sinfulness...but rather by a surrender to Him to walk in a new standard of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. This is done though abiding in Christ.

 

[Adullam]

Amen! We are not called in Christ to attain the lowest standard of righteousness...that of admitting our sinfulness...but rather by a surrender to Him to walk in a new standard of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. This is done though abiding in Christ.

Repentance is the bedrock of a righteous stance which God seeks to build Christ upon in us.

 

[Prentis]

It may be interesting to note that this sentence...


Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.


...can also mean till He come and teach righteousness to you!!!

This is alluding to the physical visitation of the Lord.

Good word brother!

This adds depth to the whole verse. We do this that he visit us, and inhabit. We prepare ourselves for his coming to us!

 

[Prentis]

Repentance is the bedrock of a righteous stance which God seeks to build Christ upon in us.

Amen!

We see that holiness is built on righteousness... The righteousness is the breaking of the fallow ground, the holiness comes by the visitation of the Lord!

 

[2bfoundinhim]

The error lies here:

Man is depraved because of his fallen nature to this point: he cannot be righteous as God, holy as God, and perfect by his own nature.
Man is not depraved to this point: he cannot seek God, he cannot be righteous like the publican or Samaritan.

Man can be righteous as the publican or Samaritan.

But to walk in the righteousness of Christ, and be as he is, the old nature must die, and he must walk by the new.

I'm not sure I know what you mean .....It's no longer I who live but Christ in me....And if this becomes real to you, then your going to walk accordingly. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for Righteousness. Righteousness is not what you do, Righteousness is a person, Jesus Christ.

Maybe I don't understand what your trying to convey.
I do believe in seeking, asking, knocking, but, only as I am led.
maybe if you explain further what you mean.

Blessings

 

[Prentis]

I'm not sure I know what you mean .....It's no longer I who live but Christ in me....And if this becomes real to you, then your going to walk accordingly. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for Righteousness. Righteousness is not what you do, Righteousness is a person, Jesus Christ.

Maybe I don't understand what your trying to convey.
I do believe in seeking, asking, knocking, but, only as I am led.
maybe if you explain further what you mean.

Blessings

What I'm trying to address is the idea that we are so lost, we can't even seek, or be righteous.

But we can choose to do what is right, and be just, like the sheep. We cannot be perfect apart from being 'it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me', but we can do what is right.

Blessings to you also!

 

[for_his_glory]

It is not by our works or good deeds that save us for if that was all it would take then Gods word would be made void in our lives and Jesus would have died in vain, but because we are all sinners, it is by Gods grace and mercy that forgives our sins and washes us clean by the atoning blood of the Lamb (Jesus) so we can be made renewed again and free from our old sin nature.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Gods strength through his grace is what helps us to face the challenges of the works we are to continue in no matter where his calling leads us or who he puts in our path and whatever tries to come against us. I hear so many say they can not talk to others about Jesus because they do not have enough knowledge of his word and are uncomfortable sharing with others because of this. None of us have full knowledge of Gods word nor will we ever exhaust the word of God, but only can give from our heart for what we do know or have learned. Each of us has a testimony to share and is this not what Jesus did in his travels. It was Jesus testimony of a loving God filled with grace and mercy followed with signs and wonders that drew others to him. We also carry with us those same signs and wonders when we give a starving child a glass of milk or someone on the street a blanket to keep them warm at night. We in all reality are sharing Gods word through these type of works that brings help to others as we see the smiles on their faces when they receive a physical gift from God that for us we would take for granite. No more excuses now.

Our works are that of a humanitarian following in the footsteps of Jesus to know the mind of Christ is to help those who are less fortunate then ourselves by giving them back some dignity to their lives as God supplies their needs through us by the grace he has bestowed upon us through his blessings. When we are out of our comfort zones we need to use that power and authority through grace to go to places we would otherwise be to uncomfortable to travel to or to fearful of our own lives to even think of taking on certain challenges. We need to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit those who are in their own prisons as Jesus said we are doing this unto his glory and honor and not of ourselves.

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me.

 

[Prentis]

Grace is the free gift, which is given not because of works, but if we simply turn our hearts to God and repent.

By faith we receive grace, which is power from on high to do what pleases God. What we do with grace most definitely matters. Grace is the talent, do we use it to glorify God, or do we put him to shame? Those who have received grace but use it for themselves, or bury it, will be cast out.

We were called for good works prepared in advance by the Father... And all those we can accomplish through Christ who strengthens us, amen!

 

[Prentis]

So then what remains is for us to choose to be obedient and faithful, and to learn to abide in the Lord.

If we do this, adding to our faith virtue, brotherly love, kindness, etc, we will granted an entrance into the heavenly kingdom!

 

[childeye]

If I understand what is meant by depravity, it is refering to the Spirit of God. The depravity of man therefore is degrees of that. We are vessels and wherever there is no light there is darkness. Why is it important to understand this? So that God be glorified as God the Creator and that we acknowledge our station as being created.

 

[Danus]

If I understand what is meant by depravity, it is refering to the Spirit of God. The depravity of man therefore is degrees of that. We are vessels and wherever there is no light there is darkness. Why is it important to understand this? So that God be glorified as God the Creator and that we acknowledge our station as being created.

To expand on this a bit, the only righteousness in man comes from God through the spirit of God within us, and we are like leaky vessels. We require refilling so to speak.

Depravity is an absence of righteousness. Total depravity refers to the condition of man without God; a condition that man is still essentially in on his own, but is made righteous only by God and not of his (Man's) own effort.

on a side note: I have no idea why the mod's let this :fullautoCalvin topic in since we have "so many" already, but why not.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Danus,

I wouldn't call this a Calvinistic topic. I would if it said "total depravity." So, we shall discuss how depraved man is and see how it turns out. If it comes down to arguing over whether man is totally depraved, then it could get ugly. :o

Lets try to avoid that.

 

[jasoncran]

when you gents go to war and see the evil that men do. then you will say wholehardeatly man is indeed depraved.

 

[reba]

Man in his sinful state?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Is man depraved? compared to who? God? then yes. Each other? some more than others. By what standard do we look at the unsaved/saved?

Does the nice old lady down the street go to be with God , because she baked cookies for the kids? Does her pleasantness save her?

 

[Danus]

Hi Danus,

I wouldn't call this a Calvinistic topic. I would if it said "total depravity." So, we shall discuss how depraved man is and see how it turns out. If it comes down to arguing over whether man is totally depraved, then it could get ugly. :o

Lets try to avoid that.

No problem. No argument here. As to the depravity of man I agree totally.

when you gents go to war and see the evil that men do. then you will say wholehardeatly man is indeed depraved.

I'm good with just reading the paper.

 

[jasoncran]

the paper doesnt do them justice. and your wonderfull commie favorite posted an article in my local paper/2

 

[Former Christian]

Sounds like the old argument about free will to me. How much free will do we have? Total Depravity says none at all. But if we're totally depraved, most of the Bible is superfluous. And it doesn't seem to me, in my opinion, that God would say stuff just to say it. Never been able to believe the cliche that says that the purpose of the Bible is to show how impossibly depraved we really are.

There is a synergy of sorts when it comes to our salvation. God provides a free gift that we have to receive with certain appropriate actions that express receipt. But I think in this thread, the idea is how much freedom does a person who is only in Adam have to practice any kind of righteousness. Can a person who is not in Christ practice righteousness? Those who believe in Total Depravity say no. Real life says yes. And I believe the Bible agrees with real life. Not enough to make us as righteous as is Christ, but a degree of righteousness nevertheless. And because we lack being as righteous as Christ is why we need to be in Christ, whose righteousness is perfect, in order to be saved.

The old Adam of the old creation has a degree of righteousness, yet with a degree of sinfulness also due to death within. In Christ is a new creation wherein is no death.

I feel sorry for those who have narrowed their vision to only those who do evil without also turning their eyes toward those who do good. And, sad to say, the percentage in Christianity who are one or the other is about the same as in the rest of the world. It’s too bad that they themselves seem to have allowed themselves to sink into that depraved state that they think all have sunk to. And if all then surely themselves also. And they are determined to put everyone on their own level. May such find peace in knowing that even this can be forgiven by God.

When we who are in Christ finally shed this body in which is the flesh wherein death resides, and sin because of death, we will be like Christ because we're in Christ. And we will see him as he is. The only reason we continue here is to be a part of the Body of Christ on the earth. Jesus continues to offer the free gift of salvation to whosoever will through those of us who are in Christ. And I don't mean just through preaching on a street corner or trying to talk someone into accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour. But in the good works that are like what Jesus did when he was physically on the earth. The simple act of helping someone in need is worth more than many thousands of words. Not that we aren’t to say anything, but we must work also so that the words don’t become empty through a lack of practical expression. Those of us who are in Christ must show the world that isn’t in Christ a degree of righteousness they have never known in themselves.

Eventually, the end will come when there will be no further offering of that free gift that is in Christ. We must abide until that time comes or until we are released from the situation in which we find ourselves in. And we are encouraged to walk by the Spirit in order to be as righteous as is Christ, to live the life of Christ, while on this earth. And therein is a supernatural miracle that all can see. And in that we will be seen as either do gooders by those who are determined to persevere in darkness, or harbingers of the good news that is in Jesus Christ by those who are seeking the light. And among those who are in Adam are those who are in darkness and practice those things of darkness, and those who are seeking the light, even if they do so unconsciously, practicing righteousness the best they know how. The only real question is, are we who are in Christ helping those who seek the light by our walking according to the Spirit or hindering them by our walking according to the flesh? Are we a light to those who walk in darkness?

FC