[_ Old Earth _] The Development Stage Is Fatal

[Barbarian]

When God says "in the beginning" and He goes on to describe a six day creation, it is most obvious that the entire six day period encompasses the "beginning"

That's not what God says. You should take it as He says it, not as you'd like it to be:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth. 2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

So yes, Jesus says in the beginning they were created male and female"

But obviously, He meant "from the beginning of the human race", not from the beginning of the universe.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Bronzesnake wrote; when God says "in the beginning" and He goes on to describe a six day creation, it is most obvious that the entire six day period encompasses the "beginning"

That's not what God says. You should take it as He says it, not as you'd like it to be:

Will this do it for you?
: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day

OK, let me ask it this way.
1)On what day did God create heaven and earth?
Let’s use exact words and let’s not interpret or add our own words.
So, for example, I’ll answer this first question by posting the exact words that are in the Genesis account.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So if we use the scriptures exclusively, without adding our own ideas such as a gap theory, or assumptions such as God actually meant time periods and not literal 24 hour periods, then we see that God created the heavens and earth in one day – the “first dayâ€

OK, question #2) what day did God create Adam and Eve?

Bronzesnake wrote; So yes, Jesus says in the beginning they were created male and female"

But obviously, He meant "from the beginning of the human race", not from the beginning of the universe.

What? How is it “obvious� The only way you can come to that conclusion is for you to interject that idea into the scriptures Barb which you yourself have accused me of doing in spite of the fact that I am using the exact scriptures and have not injected any of my own words, or made any assertions such as you have just done.

You are forced to state “from the beginning of the human race†even though this wording or even the idea is never used in scriptures because you believe in evolution Barb.

Let’s see how the “beginning†is described using only exact scriptures without adding any of our own additions such as “human race†I can’t find that term (human race) anywhere in the scriptures can you show me where you found it Barb?

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 mSix days you shall labour and do all your work, 10 but the nseventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, onor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
This verse (Exodus 20:8) tells us that in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all life.

John 1:1-3. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
This verse clarifies the question of what the “beginning†means Barb.
All things including the heavens, the earth and sea and all life were created in the “beginningâ€
There was not a separate special “human race beginning†Barb.


Here’s proof of a literal six day creation Barb.

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female
See what Jesus tells us barb? He says from the begining of creation He made them male and female, not from the begining of the human raceThis makes it clear that Jesus taught the creation was young, for Adam and Eve existed ‘from the beginning ’–not billions of years after the universe and Earth came into existence Barb.

2. Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you –Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words? John 5:45-47. In this passage, Jesus makes it clear that one must believe what Moses wrote. And one of the passages in the writings of Moses in Exodus 20:11 states: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. This, of course, is the basis of our seven-day week –six days work and one day rest. Obviously, this passage was meant to be taken as speaking of a total of seven literal days based on the Creation week of six literal days of work and one literal day of rest.

There we have it Barb.
If we use the scriptures exclusively and do not add our own ideas or words or terms such as you have by saying God meant “human race†as if we could know what God meant without His telling us. We must conclude that God created everything in the “beginning†including heavens, earth, sea and all life because that is exactly what the scriptures say...
: For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day

Take care brother.

Bronzesnake

 

[Barbarian]

At this point, you're merely denying what Genesis says, and repeating yourself. If you can come up with something new to support your new doctrine, I'd be willing to see it. And simply denying what Christians have always known to be allegorical, will not convince anyone.

YE is a very new idea, invented in the last century by the Seventh-Day Adventists. The creationism that was presented at the Scopes trial, for example, accepted millions of years.

In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.†We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. But before that era came, wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion. He allowed the inward fires to burst up from beneath, and melt all the solid matter, so that all kinds of substances were commingled in one vast mass of disorder.

Charles Spurgeon Baptist evangelist The Power of the Holy Ghost, June 17, 1855

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hello Barb.

At this point, you're merely denying what Genesis says, and repeating yourself. If you can come up with something new to support your new doctrine, I'd be willing to see it. And simply denying what Christians have always known to be allegorical, will not convince anyone.

What? I have simply used exact verses Barb, how can this be construed as “new doctrine�
I’m not sure what you’re accusing me of; interjecting my own words (I have not) or of taking the scriptures literally, which I do.

Honestly Barb, it appears as though you just can’t bring yourself to believe what Genesis says and so you have to claim that it is allegory.
It is not allegory, it’s not written in an allegorical format and it doesn’t have any figurative language, or parable in it, so your assertion that Genesis is allegory doesn’t hold much water.

The following is from...
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c024.html
INTERNAL EVIDENCE OF THE BOOK OF GENESIS
1. There is the internal evidence of the book of Genesis itself. As already mentioned, chapters 12-50 have always been regarded by the Jewish people as being the record of their own true history, and the style of writing contained in chapters 1-11 is not strikingly different from that in chapters 12-50

2. Hebrew scholars of standing have always regarded this to be the case. Thus, Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:
'Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:
(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience
(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story
(c) Noah's flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.
Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the “days†of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know...

3. One of the main themes of Genesis is the Sovereignty of God. This is seen in God's actions in respect of four outstanding events in Genesis 1-11 (Creation, the Fall, the Flood, and the Babel dispersion), and His relationship to four outstanding people in Genesis 12-50 (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph). There is thus a unifying theme to the whole of the book of Genesis, which falls to the ground if any part is mythical and not true history; on the other hand, each portion reinforces the historical authenticity of the other...

EVIDENCE FROM THE REST OF THE BIBLE
4. The principal people mentioned in Genesis chapters 1-11 are referred to as real—historical, not mythical—people in the rest of the Bible, often many times. For example, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Noah are referred to in 15 other books of the Bible.

5.The Lord Jesus Christ referred to the Creation of Adam and Eve as a real historical event, by quoting Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 in His teaching about divorce (Matthew 19:3-6; Mark 10:2-9), and by referring to Noah as a real historical person and the Flood as a real historical event, in His teaching about the 'coming of the Son of man' (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).

6.Unless the first 11 chapters of Genesis are authentic historical events, the rest of the Bible is incomplete and incomprehensible as to its full meaning. The theme of the Bible is Redemption, and may be outlined thus:
i. God's redeeming purpose is revealed in Genesis 1-11,
ii. God's redeeming purpose progresses from Genesis 12 to Jude 25, and
iii. God's redeeming purpose is consummated in Revelation 1-22.
But why does mankind need to be redeemed? What is it that he needs to be redeemed from? The answer is given in Genesis 1-11, namely, from the ruin brought about by sin. Unless we know that the entrance of sin to the human race was a true historical fact, God's purpose in providing a substitutionary atonement is a mystery. Conversely, the historical truth of Genesis 1-11 shows that all mankind has come under the righteous anger of God and needs salvation from the penalty, power, and presence of sin.

7. Unless the events of the first chapters of Genesis are true history, the Apostle Paul's explanation of the Gospel in Romans chapter 5 and of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 has no meaning. Paul writes: 'For as by one man's [Adam's] disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one [Jesus] shall many be made righteous' (Romans 5:19). And, 'For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive… And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit' (1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 45). The historical truth of the record concerning the first Adam is a guarantee that what God says in His Word about the last Adam [Jesus] is also true. Likewise, the historical, literal truth of the record concerning Jesus is a guarantee that what God says about the first Adam is also historically and literally true.
If we apply the normal principles of biblical exegesis (ignoring pressure to make the text conform to the evolutionary prejudices of our age), it is overwhelmingly obvious that Genesis was meant to be taken in a straightforward, obvious sense as an authentic, literal, historical record of what actually happened.

YE is a very new idea, invented in the last century by the Seventh-Day Adventists. The creationism that was presented at the Scopes trial, for example, accepted millions of years.

So Christians were Darwinian evolutionists for almost two thousand years before Darwin was even born Barb?

The following is from...
http://www.creationism.org/articles/EarlyChurchLit6Days.htm
The Early Church Fathers Believed in
A Young Earth & Recent Creation.
I won’t post all the quotes because it’s huge, so I’ll post the names of the early church fathers who believed in a young earth and recent creation. You can click the link and read them for yourself.

This is from the author...
The writings of the church leaders from the earliest centuries comprise numerous volumes and hundreds of topics. They are, very thankfully, now available on disk and can even be accessed and downloaded from online. One source is at Calvin College: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ I did a careful computer search of all quotes pertaining to their opinion on the age of the earth, the interpretation of Genesis 1, and some pertinent quotes relating to the flood as well.

I was careful to quote complete thoughts as much as possible, and not to use elipses at all. I also did not, to my knowledge, leave out any quotes that did not agree with my own point of view.

I found that the church fathers unequivocally believed in a young earth and a literal interpretation of Genesis 1. Only one, Origen, MAYBE believed in a different interpretation of "days," but he definitely believed in a rapid creation and a young earth.

Most of the quotes are clear and easy to understand. There are some below, however, that are a bit more difficult and esoteric. Reading larger sections of the church fathers to learn what larger ideas informed their writings, learning of the historical contexts in which they wrote, and learning about the allegorical method of interpretation would all prove helpful for a deeper understanding. These quotes are posted for your own reference and academic availability.

The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS p.146

THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS
JUSTIN'S HORTATORY ADDRESS TO THE GREEKS
IRENAEUS
THEOPHILUS
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
TERTULLIAN
HIPPOLYTUS
JULIUS AFRICANUS
MALCHION
PETER, BISHOP OF ALEXANDRIA
LACTANTIUS

NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS
St. Augustine
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM

NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS, Series II
THEODORET
JEROME AND GENNADIUS
ATHANASIUS
GREGORY OF NYSSA
ST. JEROME
CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
ST. BASIL
HILARY OF POITIERS
JOHN OF DAMASCUS
SULPITIUS SEVERUS
LEO THE GREAT

Anyway, there are many more, but the fact is that your belief that “YE is a very new idea, invented in the last century by the Seventh-Day Adventists.†Is simply incorrect Barb.

Here’s a blatant example (below) of what you accuse me of doing Barb; Adding in your own unsubstantiated beliefs which are most defiantly not in the scriptures.
I have used only exact verses from scripture, and yet you take issue with me for adding my own words which is bizarre.

Look at what’s going on here...
In the 2d verse of the first chapter of Genesis, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.†We know not how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—
In one instance the fact is made that “we know not how remote the period of creation of this globe may beâ€
Then, in the very next instance he says...
“certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam.â€
Not maybe millions of years, but CERTAINLY.

Actually the exact age is revealed right there in the genesis account, but you chose not to believe the exact words of God, you chose to believe people who interject their own ideas and “facts†into God’s word, then you accuse me of adding my ideas. Strange Barb.

"Our planet has passed through various stages of existence,"
Here again is a blatant example of a person adding his own words and ideas into the text.
Why don’t you accuse this person of adding into the scriptures Barb?

"and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God."
He says God “fashioned†life, however I can't find that word anywhere in the sriptures Barb, that addition must anger you beyond belief. Actually God says He created life.
As I said,that must upset you terribly Barb, because I know how much you dislike it when people add into scriptures.

"But before that era came,"
What era? Where in the scriptures do we see "era" used Barb?
Look I know I'm harping on this but you have gotten upset with me because you claimed I added my own words and meanings into the scriptures, even though I used the exact words straight from Genesis, so you can see wht I am making an issue of this when you provide quotes which actually do add words and meanings which are nowhere in Genesis.

Wherein man should be its principal tenant and monarch, the Creator gave up the world to confusion. He allowed the inward fires to burst up from beneath, and melt all the solid matter, so that all kinds of substances were commingled in one vast mass of disorder.
What exactly does that mean? It's not in the scriptures either Barb.

Take care brother.

John

 

[jasoncran]

correct me if i am wrong, since barb mentioned the scope trial. wasnt the evidence presented by the alcu a fraud. piltdown man?

somebody had to know that was a fraud from the very start.

 

[Barbarian]

correct me if i am wrong, since barb mentioned the scope trial. wasnt the evidence presented by the alcu a fraud. piltdown man?

Don't remember Piltdown man in the testimony. I believe the judge derailed that; the defense was prepared to show that science was not contradictory to faith, but the prosecution successfully moved to limit the argument to whether or not Scopes had violated the law.

somebody had to know that was a fraud from the very start.

We don't know who. All we know is that evolutionary scientists debunked it.

 

[jasoncran]

i was looking at that trial , and found no mention, and piltdown was debunked i think in the 50's. though i was still taught that was a transitional when i was in grade school along with lucy. i wish i had the book for that. to be sure.