the doctrine of salvation

[iLOVE]

No one goes to hell for sin...they will go to hell for rejecting Jesus.

 

[gr8grace]

No one goes to hell for sin...they will go to hell for rejecting Jesus.

Right on...John 16:9.

 

[Webb]

"---the jailer's salvation occured at the moment of belief--." A statement no doubt made sincerely, yet without scriptural verification.

 

[Webb]

"--the jailer's salvation occured at the moment of belief--."

In Mk.16:15,16 Jesus said belief + batism =saved. In Acts 16 Paul's conversation with the jailor began with believe and concluded with baptism (vss.31-33). I shall abide with Jesus and Paul. BTW, in this context, when did the jailer rejoice? Before or after his baptism?

 

[Butch5]

The no works argument is not an issue, works are necessary. Paul's "not of works" argument must be understood in it's proper historical context. Paul's arguments are a response to the teachings of the Judaizers and Jews. The Judaizers were teaching Paul's converts that in addition to faith in Christ it was also necessary for them to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses.

KJV Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

(Act 15:1-2 KJV

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Act 15:5 KJV)

This is the historical background to Paul's arguments that works don't save. In contrast he speaks of good deeds to the church at Rome.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

(Rom 2:5-10 KJV)

Here we see Paul teaching that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

No one goes to hell for sin...they will go to hell for rejecting Jesus.

Not according to the Scriptures.

 

[Butch5]

Salvation has never changed,dispensations change but faith alone in Christ alone has never changed. He paid for the sin of all men everywhere and past,present and future. All time!

were we differ is salvation, the jailers salvation occurred at the moment of belief, the jailers christian life was now being explained to him and anyone who has believed in his household.

We all get more doctrine after we believe, we all get more of the gospel taught to us after we believe. We receive it with Joy because we are saved! Just because they told them more about being a Christian and living the Christian way of life doesnt mean they are not saved.

In your statement what do you mean by salvation? If by salvation you mean one has entered into a relationship with God I can see that. However, if by salvation you mean the completed act I'll have to disagree as I believe Paul would also.

Romans 13:11 (NKJV)
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

 

[iLOVE]

Not according to the Scriptures.

When you continue to sin without regard your heart could harden and reject Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit left Saul (1 Samuel 16:14).

 

[gr8grace]

"---the jailer's salvation occured at the moment of belief--." A statement no doubt made sincerely, yet without scriptural verification.

John 20:31
John 3:18
This is Fun, just by reading through a lot of these threads I figured this would open a big can of worms!
Rom 10:11
John 16:9 Is the dogmatic scripture though......You have to change the meaning of this Dogmatically stated scripture to fit water baptism in there.

The burden of proof is really on you, If you can fit water baptism in John 16:9 Then i will have to rethink my position.

The Bible is so saturated with Believe and be saved. I have a hard time believing you guys are sincere about this. Are you pullen my leg?

 

[gr8grace]

In your statement what do you mean by salvation? If by salvation you mean one has entered into a relationship with God I can see that. However, if by salvation you mean the completed act I'll have to disagree as I believe Paul would also.

Romans 13:11 (NKJV)
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

You really do need to read the Doctrine of salvation. I am serious, if you dont know what salvation is, it is imperative that you find out.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jarrod

No one is pulling your leg. God forbid.

Now lets note the scripture you cited on your post # 29:

John 20:3l: The apostle says these are written that we might believe and have life. Is the word "believe" generic or specific in this verse? It must be generic as it surely includes repentance (which is a condition of salvation , Lk.13:3 and Acts 2:38). Thus if belief here is inclusive of repentance it will as well be inclusive of baptism, Mk.16:15,16. Do you believe what Jesus said about baptism in Mark? I trust you do.

John 3:18: Again, is the word "believeth" generic (inclusive of all Jesus taught) or specific? Must I repent to be saved? Jesus said so, Lk. 13:3. But repentanceis not found in Jn.3:18. Must I confess Jesus to be saved? Certainly so, Matt.10:32,33. But confessing Jesus is not mentioned Jn.3:18. In Jn.12:42 certain rulers "believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" They believed, but would not confess Jesus, were they saved? Jn.3:18 doesn't say a word either about baptism, yet Jesus said "he that believeth and is baptized shall be save." The demons believe and tremble (Jas.2:19), are the demons saved? To ask the question is to answer it. Belief and faih are often used in their generic sense and these are but examples.

Rom.10:11: Again, is this generic or specific? Does the verse say anything about repentance, confessing Christ or baptism? No. I promise if one insists repentance is included in these examples of "belief, believe" through the same door will come baptism.

John16:8. The same as those above. Is "believe" general or specific here. Remember the demons, remember the chief rulers.

 

[Butch5]

When you continue to sin without regard your heart couldharden and reject Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit left Saul (1 Samuel16:14).

Yes, he did. Paultold his readers (believers).

17 For the flesh lusteth againstthe Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one tothe other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit,ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh aremanifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred,variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness,revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told youin time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdomof God.
(Gal 5:17-21 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

You really do need to read the Doctrine of salvation. I am serious, if you dont know what salvation is, it is imperative that you find out.

I know what the doctrine of salvation is. It's not a one time deal, Paul makes that quite clear in Romans 13:11

 

[Butch5]

John 20:31
John 3:18
This is Fun, just by reading through a lot of these threads I figured this would open a big can of worms!
Rom 10:11
John 16:9 Is the dogmatic scripture though......You have to change the meaning of this Dogmatically stated scripture to fit water baptism in there.

The burden of proof is really on you, If you can fit water baptism in John 16:9 Then i will have to rethink my position.

The Bible is so saturated with Believe and be saved. I have a hard time believing you guys are sincere about this. Are you pullen my leg?

Actually, it's not. the burden of proof falls on those who claim baptism isn't necessary. You see water baptism as a necessity was taught from the very beginning of the church until the reformation, and even then Luther taught it was necessary. So, you see. it is those who say it isn't necessary that have the burden of proof. Regarding John 16:9, what does it mean to believe on Christ?

I'll give you another passage to contemplate.

3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again; (Rom 6:3-5 YLT)

Here Paul clearly connects water baptism with participation in the Resurrection.

 

[Davies]

Good morning,

I'm posting at my hazard here because I don't have time today, but repentance and baptism don't earn you anything. They do nothing for your justification. Yes, God commanded both, so because we have been saved and love Jesus our God, we repent and get baptized. This is part of sanctification, not justification. Anything we do to be right with God is called self-righteousness, and I do think we shall be rewarded for the things we do that will stand the test of the of Jesus' judgment, 1 Corinthians 3:15, none of those works that last are for our justification. Anything you take credit for, for your justification, robs Jesus of His glory, and that's a violation of the 8th Commandment.

- Davies

 

[Webb]

Hi Davies

Can one be saved prior to repenting?

 

[Butch5]

Good morning,

I'm posting at my hazard here because I don't have time today, but repentance and baptism don't earn you anything. They do nothing for your justification. Yes, God commanded both, so because we have been saved and love Jesus our God, we repent and get baptized. This is part of sanctification, not justification. Anything we do to be right with God is called self-righteousness, and I do think we shall be rewarded for the things we do that will stand the test of the of Jesus' judgment, 1 Corinthians 3:15, none of those works that last are for our justification. Anything you take credit for, for your justification, robs Jesus of His glory, and that's a violation of the 8th Commandment.

- Davies

Is it possible that you could support that from Scripture? There are many Scriptures that tell us to do things to be "right" with God.

 

[Deborah13]

I know what the doctrine of salvation is. It's not a one time deal, Paul makes that quite clear in Romans 13:11

Romans 13:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Luke 21:29-34

King James Version (KJV)

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares

Our salvation is not a what but a WHO.

 

[Butch5]

Romans 13:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Luke 21:29-34

King James Version (KJV)

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares

Our salvation is not a what but a WHO.

Are you suggesting then that Paul's readers were not Christians?

 

[Deborah13]

Are you suggesting then that Paul's readers were not Christians?

What? You will have to explain why you would ask this question, what did I say that would lead you to this question?

Oh I think maybe I know.

Romans 13:11 - "for now our salvation is nearer than when we believed."
Luke 21:31 - "know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand"

Romans 13:11 - is speaking of our salvation being nearer as in the return of Christ.

Our salvation is Christ.