stovebolts
Member
Let's stick to the scriptures guys and remember we have a TOS. ;)
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
The Eternal Hellfire Lie Exposed!
- Thread starter westtexas
- Start date
Rageprophet
Member
I apologize if I offended anyone, that was not my intention.
Rageprophet
Member
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed,
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]into everlasting fire, [/FONT][/FONT]prepared for the devil and his angels"
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](Matthew 25:41).
[/FONT][/FONT]"And these shall go away [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]into everlasting punishment[/FONT][/FONT]: but the righteous into life eternal" [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](Matthew 25:46). [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Jesus used the identical Greek word to describe the eternality both of heaven and hell. Thus it is clear that if heaven is eternal, so is hell.
In Revelation 14:10-11, the Bible describes hell as a place where [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture," [/FONT][/FONT]and where the wicked [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
westtexas
Member
Kai apeleusontai outoi eis KOLASIN AIONIOS oi de dikaioi eis ZOEN AIONIOS -Matt.25:46 (Interlinear Bible)
kolasin aoinios-eternal punishment
zoen aionios-eternal life
n2thelight
Member
Before I comment on these verses,will you please tell me what is your definition on the death of the soul.also,if the soul dies how can it be tortured forever.
See for me that's the bottom line,if you can show me where death dosn't mean death,I will explain the above verses...Because if the soul dies,and it willthen it's ovious that the verses you provided don't mean what you think they do....
So again,what is the death of the soul?
n2thelight
Member
Kai apeleusontai outoi eis KOLASIN AIONIOS oi de dikaioi eis ZOEN AIONIOS -Matt.25:46 (Interlinear Bible)
kolasin aoinios-eternal punishment
zoen aionios-eternal life
“They Will Go Away to Eternal Punishmentâ€
MATTHEW 25:41,46
“ ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ â€
(46) “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.â€
First of all, please notice, once again, that this text plainly declares that only the righteous will be granted eternal life. In the previous chapter we saw that “eternal life†(aionios zoe) literally refers to perpetual life in the age to come. If only the righteous will be granted eternal life in the age to come, then the unrighteous will obviously not be granted eternal life in the age to come. The bible is clear about this:
JOHN 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.
So what does Jesus say will be done with the unrighteous in Matthew 25:41 and 46 above? One thing’s for certain, he says nothing at all about eternal conscious life in utter misery; he merely states that they will be cast “into the eternal fire,†which is the lake of fire (verse 41), and that this is their “eternal punishment†(verse 46). Please note that Jesus said “eternal punishment†and not “eternal punishing.â€
The word “punishment†is translated from the Greek word kolasis (kol’-as-is) which refers to a “penal infliction†(Strong 43) and thus a judicial sentence. Jesus does not say here what exactly the penal infliction will be, only that it will take place in the lake of fire (“the eternal fireâ€) and that the infliction will last forever (that is, take place in the age to come, which lasts forever). Since Jesus doesn’t specify here what exactly the penal sentence is, we must therefore turn to the rest of scripture for answers.
And we know elsewhere Jesus plainly taught that God would “destroy both soul and body†in the lake of fire (Matthew 10:28) and Paul taught that the ungodly would suffer “everlasting destruction†(2Thessalonians 1:9). Thus the bible is quite clear that the eternal punishment or penal sentence that the unrighteous will be condemned to in the lake of fire is everlasting destruction of soul and body – destruction of the whole person which lasts forever – noteternal punishing.
Let’s also consider the fact that the bible uses the word “eternal†to describe the results of an act even when it is clear that the act itself is not of endless duration. For instance, Hebrews 9:12 speaks of the “eternal redemption†which Christ obtained for us; yet no one absurdly supposes that this redemption will be an endless process which will go on through all eternity “because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy†(Hebrews 10:14). Also, Hebrews 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment,†yet no one ludicrously claims that the work of judging will go on forever and ever without end. In the very same way the act of punishment need not go on endlessly for the punishment to be eternal. Like eternal redemption and eternal judgment, eternal punishment is eternal in the sense that its results are eternal (McFarland 14).
Some contend that Jesus was teaching eternal conscious torment by describing the lake of fire as “the eternal fire.†Yet this is simply a name for, and a description of, the lake of fire which was “prepared for the devil and his angels†as their eternal habitation (verse 41). As pointed out in Chapter Four, these wicked, rebellious angels possess unconditional immortality and thus must be exiled to exist somewhere for all eternity. What else can God possibly do with such evil, irredeemable creatures that can never die?
Furthermore, as we’ve already seen in Chapter Three, Jude 7 plainly states that Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown by “eternal fire.†Since these cities have long since been completely incinerated, “eternal fire†in this context must refer to total destruction which lasts forever, and not to never-ending conscious torment. As already noted, this complete and permanent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah is a biblical example of what will happen to the ungodly when they suffer the second death (2Peter 2:6). So, technically, the phrase “eternal fire†merely refers to destruction which lasts forever when applied to human beings. As always, we must resist the temptation to add our own biased interpretation to various biblical phrases and simply let scripture interpret scripture.
Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically
Pizzaguy
Member
It is a TREMENDOUSLY long read, but this:
Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz
... was very good reading! It may have just completely convinced me that those who die without Christ face annihilation. He makes the point that the punishment that the lost face varies per their life's 'work'.
That is to say, perhaps the average lost person experiences a brief spat of pain and suffering... where as, perhaps, Hitler suffers a time of torment for each life lost due to his actions. (And with millions of lives lost - he could very well still be suffering to this day.)
There is too much there for me to really discuss it in detail, but I did spend what seemed like more than an hour on it last night. He offers much to think about.
Hell: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation? - By Jeremy K. Moritz
... was very good reading! It may have just completely convinced me that those who die without Christ face annihilation. He makes the point that the punishment that the lost face varies per their life's 'work'.
That is to say, perhaps the average lost person experiences a brief spat of pain and suffering... where as, perhaps, Hitler suffers a time of torment for each life lost due to his actions. (And with millions of lives lost - he could very well still be suffering to this day.)
There is too much there for me to really discuss it in detail, but I did spend what seemed like more than an hour on it last night. He offers much to think about.
Pizzaguy
Member
Romans 6:23
King James Version (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How can someone face death if they never die? Certainly this can't mean PHYSICAL death because we all end up physically dead. The 'saved' receive eternal life, the lost face a second death.
King James Version (KJV)
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
How can someone face death if they never die? Certainly this can't mean PHYSICAL death because we all end up physically dead. The 'saved' receive eternal life, the lost face a second death.
handy
Member
I've always been convinced of the idea of conscience torment in hell, I haven't liked it, but accepted it is as Biblical truth and God's will...after reading through the various studies and thoughts that have been discussed here and on the some of the other threads...I'm beginning to see that there is a strong case to be made for the annihilation of unbelievers.
Not that I'm wholly convinced of annihilation yet...but I'm seeing the arguments in favor of annihilation presented in a far more biblical way than I've ever yet seen.
Not that I'm wholly convinced of annihilation yet...but I'm seeing the arguments in favor of annihilation presented in a far more biblical way than I've ever yet seen.
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
You cannot even provide a single one because not a single Scripture verse or passage teaches a literal eternal torment for anyone!
The true God is not a sadistic and revengeful monster!!!
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
1. The Koine Greek word "aionios" is used in Matthew 25:46 and has been translated forever and ever! But in Koine Greek it doesn't mean endless at all! The term "for ever, eternal, everlasting" as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The Greek word for everlasting or eternal is the adjective "aionios" derived from the noun "aion" which means an "age" or "era". The word itself leaves the time limit of the age undefined.
2. Read about the city of Edom in Isa 34:6-11 It says Edom was to burn forever and never be quenched, the smoke thereof shall go up for ever! But its NOT burning today and in fact in verse 11 it says it will be occupied again after this so called forever FIRE! The problem lies in English translations, and eternal and forever and ever, does not always mean endless in the Bible.
Is EDOM burning today? NO! English translation says forever, but the original language it doesn't say or mean forever as you can clearly see that the next verse says it will be occupied again. How is that possible if v10 was to be taken literally as eternal fire etc.
In Isa 34:10 it says the smoke from the fire on Edom will rise forever and never be quenched! Is this smoke rising today? NO it is not as Edom is in ashes today!
3. Eternal hellfire stems from Devils first lie[Gen 3:4] where Satan says YOU SHALL NOT DIE!! And that's what eternal hellfire teachers say, the lost shall NEVER DIE, they shall continue living forever!
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
Pizzaguy
Member
That is where I am at, too. Also...
truthseeker said:
I have had a HARD time being told that God is so loving (and we KNOW He is, not doubting that) and yet, He "must punish sinners for eternity in hell in the most horrible way... because He is 'just'"
Anyway, I'll look at TS's last link after some work out in the garage.
Have a blessed evening, everyone, if I don't make it back on here tonight!
T
TruthSeeker2012
Guest
I hear ya and I agree with you. So that's why I began studying the Bible for myself because I used to be believe God tortures the lost forver in agony and that's why I rejected God all my life. I could never love or worship a monster knowing he is torturing people forever, people I know.
But after I began studying Bible for myself I was amazingly surprised that Bible doesn't teach eternal torture, and as a result, I fell very deeply in love with God.
How would you feel if you saw me burn and torture my child because my child was rebelling against me? And you saw me stand back watching him burn and his screaming and I do nothing to help him. Would you think I was evil?
If anyone is truly humble and open minded, then I ask you read this link with an open heart as it will prove biblically, that God is not a tyrant and monster who will be burning the lost forever and torturing them while we are supposed to enjoy heaven at the same time. How can the redeemed enjoy heaven knowing some family members and others are being eternally tortured forever and ever and ever where they scream in horrific pain and agony!!!
http://www.biblejesus.org/is-there-an-eternal-hellfire.html
Have a blessed evening you too
;)P.s Nice BMW
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The greatest commandment is Love God with all your heart mind and soul. For man this is the greatest Truth. The second commandment is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. This is the second greatest Truth for man. Since lies exist for the sake of Truth, every lie ever invented seeks to keep a man form accomplishing these commandments. Therefore the prime directive for all lies is to cause one to hate God. The teaching that God tortures people forever while sitting in the bliss of heaven does make people hate God. It does not serve the first commandment but undermines it.
What we believe to be true is what governs our reasoning. The True Image of God was sent so that we might see the Truth of Who God is and be changed, because the image we held was corrupt. And what do we see in the Christ? An eternal love that submits to torture yet forgives those who do it, declaring them blind to the Truth. We become morally whatever image of God we hold to be true. So return good for evil and love your enemies so that lies have no place in you.
What we believe to be true is what governs our reasoning. The True Image of God was sent so that we might see the Truth of Who God is and be changed, because the image we held was corrupt. And what do we see in the Christ? An eternal love that submits to torture yet forgives those who do it, declaring them blind to the Truth. We become morally whatever image of God we hold to be true. So return good for evil and love your enemies so that lies have no place in you.
T
TheRealTruth777
Guest
I'm pretty sure that when Christ descended into hell to preach to the souls there, that that therefore means that it isn't quite eternal...but still quite a long long time.
In other words...if souls in hell have a chance at being set free...then it would prove it isn't really eternal.
As far as the rubbish dump...hell is indeed the rubbish dump of the Universe...and conversely, Heaven is the Creative Mind and Memory of the Universe..where things are saved (remembered). If we love and remember God...He will love and remember us!!
In other words...if souls in hell have a chance at being set free...then it would prove it isn't really eternal.
As far as the rubbish dump...hell is indeed the rubbish dump of the Universe...and conversely, Heaven is the Creative Mind and Memory of the Universe..where things are saved (remembered). If we love and remember God...He will love and remember us!!
T
TheRealTruth777
Guest
Awesome!!
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
The Second Death !
Rev 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 20:6
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
What is the Second Death ? It is the final, everlasting and conscience torment and separation of lost unredeemed sinners from God !
Rev 14:10-11
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
The above scriptures describes the second death !
Rev 2:11
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 20:6
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
What is the Second Death ? It is the final, everlasting and conscience torment and separation of lost unredeemed sinners from God !
Rev 14:10-11
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
2 Thess 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
The above scriptures describes the second death !
T
TheRealTruth777
Guest
Yeah...it's like the Wicked are basically turned into fertilizer for the rest of the universe. lol.
I guess it's sort of like in the original Donkey Kong, where if you mess up, you have to start all the way over at the beginning...from the very very bottom. But who knows how long, if ever, we would get another chance!
But when we transcend through Christ, we have the situation where "Death is swallowed up in victory"