The Eternal Purpose of creation !

[Mysteryman]

Hi Jeff

STOP !!!!!!!!

In Genesis 1:3 God "does not" form light ! God said - "let there be light"

Remember that God is all light, so he does not need to form it. All he has to do is speak it. Speaking light is not forming it. God did not "create" light , remember ? So he does not need to form it !

God does "form" light in Genesis 1:16 -- the word "made" means "form" here.

The amount of light that God spoke , was a certain amount of what He "is" = Light. Just enough to seperate the light from the darkness. Verse 4 shows us that the light God spoke, divides the light from the darkness. Which means that darkness is still around. This is spiritual light to divide the spiritual darkness that is here on the earth. And "that" spiritual darkness is the serpent, whom God put here in the first place, after he kicked him out of heaven and down to earth. And the angel of light became the angel of darkness < Remember ?

I love this conversation we are having --

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

God has knowledge of good and evil

Of course He does, for He created them, they exist by His Sovereign decree and purpose..

isa 45:

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

James 1:

17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

 

[stovebolts]

MM,
While I understand you’re thought while connecting 1 John 1:5 with Genesis 1:3, I would expand that to say that all that is formed by God is a proper reflection of God. It is by what God has formed that we are able to know him. (Colossians 1:15-17)

1 John 4:7-8 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

You see, love is of God, for God is love. God gives his light (Jesus), for God is light. These attributes, though created must be formed so that they may be experienced. You see, Jesus was formed by God and was made known to humanity by way of Jesus through a virgin birth. (Matthew 1:18-25, John 1:1-5)

When we look at all of Genesis 1, we see that the earth was void and empty. God takes an active role in filling the emptiness and void and does so by speaking. Everything in creation formed by God was done through utterance.

Likewise, on the second day, God forms what is already formed by separating and dividing. On the third day, he continues to form and divides thewhat has already been formed, then, he takes the land which he has formed, and empowers the land to form by produce vegetation. From the firmament which was formed, the sun and stars are then formed and from the water swimming creatures are formed, again, the land is empowered to produce living creatures for they are formed from that which has already been formed. You see, God isn’t just into shaping and forming, but also reforming and reshaping what has already been formed.

God took the very essence of who he is and it was reflected as light to the earth and formed into a tangible form for all to see. Jesus was the full manifestation of that light for without light, we are blind for as scripture states, Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

And elsewhere,
John 14:8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

But I regress, the light was formed by the very utterance from God for had God not uttered, "Let there be light", we would not have seen Him as we currently know scripture to speak.

Thoughts

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Jeff:

What you just said in your post for the most part is correct. But you went off on a little tangent there . I knew that it was your way of trying to explain from your perspective. This I can totally understand and appreciate.

However, when reading someone's comments, I always look for little red flags that indicate a misconception based upon a previous premise.

You said this statement, which I would like to enter into the discussion > " for God is light. These attributes, though created must be formed so that they may be experienced"

I have a problem with this comment. Here is why, You are saying that these attributes of God though created - end quote.

What I think you fail to see, is that God is light, thus he does not and did not create light. He did create darkness and evil, but he didn't have to create his own attributes, such as light.

God does not form (made) light , until Gen. 1:16 WHEN God made the two great lights, we call the sun and the moon.

These were not present in Gen. 1:3. The light in Gen. 1:3 is dealing with only spiritual light, not physical light. In Gen. 1:3 this verse is only dealing with spiritual darkness and spiritual light !

When God divided the light from the darkness in verse 4, God was not turning on a light bulb, nor lighting a candle. ( I don't mean to be sarcastic here !)

So when it says - "the evening and the morning was the first day" < - First day of what ? dividing the spiritual light from the spiritual darkness . The words evening represent the darkness and the word morning represents spiritual light. At this point in time, there were no actual days and nights. This happens after God made the two great lights 1. sun 2. moon , then in verse 14 we read what they are for. One thing they are "for" is "days"

Thanks

IN Christ - MM

 

[stovebolts]

Hi MM,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created on day four as I had posted that comments at least twice that I can remember so yes, I affirm that the light we are discussing is not astrological, but is celestial.

That being said, let me post the rest of the snipit you disagreed with and let me try to elaborate.

You see, love is of God, for God is love. God gives his light (Jesus), for God is light. These attributes, though created must be formed so that they may be experienced. You see, Jesus was formed by God and was made known to humanity by way of Jesus through a virgin birth. (Matthew 1:18-25, John 1:1-5)

At first, I am trying to make the connection that love is from God because God is love. Likewise, light is from God, because God is light and yes, we are talking about a spiritual, celestial light.

Here is my perspective. There is a difference between what is created and what is formed. I know that we often want to interchange create with made, but in this case, I think there needs to be a seperation between create and form as they are two very different things. In short, something has to be created before anything is formed out of it. One does not create a cake, one combines and forms the ingredients to make a cake.

God creates evil, but he does not form evil. God creates good, but then he separates it or makes a distinction from evil by forming that which is good. I believe that God cannot form evil, he can only form that which is good which is why scripture says, love is of God, for God is love. Love is of God because it's a reflection which radiates from God, because God is love, thus, God forms love and by doing so, his love is shared with his creation.

Likewise, light is of God because God is light. You see, light isn't just created, it's formed so that we may experience what God has created. If what is created has not been formed, we cannot experience it. Follow this thought out, and you will see that Jesus was a real human being, yet divine who was formed from the dust of the ground, yet conceived of the Holy Spirit and as such, In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. (John 1:4)

Are you tracking?

Talk to you tomorrow, it's been fun

Jeff

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi MM,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created on day four as I had posted that comments at least twice that I can remember so yes, I affirm that the light we are discussing is not astrological, but is celestial.

That being said, let me post the rest of the snipit you disagreed with and let me try to elaborate.

You see, love is of God, for God is love. God gives his light (Jesus), for God is light. These attributes, though created must be formed so that they may be experienced. You see, Jesus was formed by God and was made known to humanity by way of Jesus through a virgin birth. (Matthew 1:18-25, John 1:1-5)

At first, I am trying to make the connection that love is from God because God is love. Likewise, light is from God, because God is light and yes, we are talking about a spiritual, celestial light.

Here is my perspective. There is a difference between what is created and what is formed. I know that we often want to interchange create with made, but in this case, I think there needs to be a seperation between create and form as they are two very different things. In short, something has to be created before anything is formed out of it. One does not create a cake, one combines and forms the ingredients to make a cake.

God creates evil, but he does not form evil. God creates good, but then he separates it or makes a distinction from evil by forming that which is good. I believe that God cannot form evil, he can only form that which is good which is why scripture says, love is of God, for God is love. Love is of God because it's a reflection which radiates from God, because God is love, thus, God forms love and by doing so, his love is shared with his creation.

Likewise, light is of God because God is light. You see, light isn't just created, it's formed so that we may experience what God has created. If what is created has not been formed, we cannot experience it. Follow this thought out, and you will see that Jesus was a real human being, yet divine who was formed from the dust of the ground, yet conceived of the Holy Spirit and as such, In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. (John 1:4)

Are you tracking?

Talk to you tomorrow, it's been fun

Jeff

Hi Jeff:

What I think we need to do, before moving on with this conversation. Is to clarify something between one another.

And that is the use of the word "create". It seems to keep popping up in your replies, and this is where you keep loosing me within your explanations.

Like you just said above, and I quote : "God creates good" - and here is another > " I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created on day four" -- and here is another one -- > "light isn't just created"

All three comments that you made , that I just brought down from your comments above , are all not true. Now, If we are to continue on with this conversation, we need to clarify as to what is true and what is not true. You see, God does not create good, nor does he create the sun and moon and stars on day four, nor is light ever created.

As you said, we need to seperate the difference between creates and made/form. And as you also said, they are two different words with different meanings. So let us continue this conversation from this point, shall we ?

Since God does create, we need to distinguish between what he does and does not create. And what he forms/made and what he does not - make/form/made. Agreed ?

God created the earth - heavens
God created man
God created evil and darkness
God created great whales
God created north and south (not east and west - because east and west is eternal, like God is eternal)
God created the smith that bloweth
God created the waster
God created fruit of the lips
God shall create the new Heavens and new earth
God created Jerusalem
God created the wind

Now, it is possible that I might have missed one.

Next, we can discuss what God made/forms/make and what he does not made/form/make.

Talk to you soon

IN Christ - MM

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

Here is my perspective. There is a difference between what is created and what is formed.

Ah but its not, they both essentially meand bringing into existence..

For example, for the word created here in gen 1:1


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

It is the hebrew word bara'

and its primary meanings are:

to create, shape, form

So that shoots down your human reasoning..

 

[stovebolts]

Like you just said above, and I quote : "God creates good" - and here is another > " I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created on day four" -- and here is another one -- > "light isn't just created"

All three comments that you made , that I just brought down from your comments above , are all not true.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out my mistakes. I'm having difficutly shifting my thoughts and writing in a manner that accommodates this expanding understanding of the word bara as given by the Rambam. Like most, and not to give excuse, it is my natural inclination to use the word create synonymously with made.

1. "God creates good" should have been written as, What God makes is good.
2. " I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created (bara) on day four"
My bad, I should have said, "made" (asah). You are correct in spotting my error. God did not create (bara) the sun, moon or stars.
Genesis 1:16 And God made (asah) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made (asah) the stars also.
3. "light isn't just created"
Of course, we are speaking about a great paradox here when we refer to light as being created. When I wrote that, I was thinking along the lines Col 1:15-20 and John 1:1-5 with a dash of Mt 1:18-25. But you are correct, light is not created for God is not created, yet it is formed from that which has always existed and has made visible from the invisible much in the way love is not created, yet it too is formed in a way that it too may be made known.

Now then, I do hope that clears those issues up. You've made a list, so let me respond to your list and let's see where it leads? BTW, I find it more important how something is formed, than the simple statement of "It was created".

God created the earth - heavens --Agreed as a summary statement of all that is created. Scripture often does this where a summary is given, then the detail follows.
God created man --Agreed. He created humanity by forming that which has already been created (earth) and that which always has been. (Gen 1:26, Gen 2:7, ec 12:7)
God created evil and darkness --Agreed. However, I find it important to note that if one takes the "light" away, has darkness really been created or could we say that darkness and evil, though created, are actually within the realm of non-existence. Thus, evil and darkness are created by the absence of good and light.
God created great whales --Agreed, he created them and them formed them.
God created north and south (not east and west - because east and west is eternal, like God is eternal) I'm not sure where you got this. Please provide explanation.

God created the smith that bloweth --Agreed. It is God who governs.
God created the waster --Agreed. It is God who executes judgment.
God created fruit of the lips --Agreed, it is God who grants true peace.
God shall create the new Heavens and new earth --Agreed
God created Jerusalem --Agreed
God created the wind -- I'd have to know what verse your taking about here. Wind as I understand it is ruwach which takes on the form of wind-spirit in terms of breathing and can apply to the earth and all living creatures that have been formed with as a chay nephesh. I believe I've said this before, but to speak, one must breath as it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out... Thus, God's ruwach is present throughout his creation which brings me back to our topic on darkness. God does not speak darkness into existence but rather, he says, "Let there be light", and light fills the darkness. Which brings me back to what occurs when the light is taken away. From a grand scale in regard to Isiah 45:7, the light had been taken away from Israel and given to the Babylonians, then to the Persians that it would come full circle back to Israel per Deut 28.

Next, we can discuss what God made/forms/make and what he does not made/form/make.

I look forward to it

Hoping your day goes well.

Grace and peace,
Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

So that shoots down your human reasoning..

I really have no desire to waste my time with somebody who's objective is to win an argument.

Regards.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So that shoots down your human reasoning..

I really have no desire to waste my time with somebody who's objective is to win an argument.

Regards.

I am not arguing, I am witnessing scripture truth over your human reasoning ..

 

[Mysteryman]

stove:

Here is my perspective. There is a difference between what is created and what is formed.

Ah but its not, they both essentially meand bringing into existence..

For example, for the word created here in gen 1:1


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

It is the hebrew word bara'

and its primary meanings are:

to create, shape, form

So that shoots down your human reasoning..

Hi

Create does not always mean - "to form" or "to shape"

God created evil and darkness, but God didn't form or shape evil. The light divided the darkness , thus exposing it. Evil and darkness can only take shape or form, "when" it is manifested.

Pure darkness, is the total absence of light. Hence , darkness only takes shape or form upon it being manifested.

If God formed the darkness, then God would be darkness. < Which of course is not true ! What we are dealing with here, is perspective.

To "perceive" is to "know"

God knows good and evil, and obviously , he knows darkness. But he does not form it !

God did "form" the earth - Isa. 45:18 - he formed it to be inhabited.

The two words 1. Formed and 2. Made -- are words with different usages throughout the Word of God.

IN Christ - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Like you just said above, and I quote : "God creates good" - and here is another > " I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created on day four" -- and here is another one -- > "light isn't just created"

All three comments that you made , that I just brought down from your comments above , are all not true.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out my mistakes. I'm having difficutly shifting my thoughts and writing in a manner that accommodates this expanding understanding of the word bara as given by the Rambam. Like most, and not to give excuse, it is my natural inclination to use the word create synonymously with made.

1. "God creates good" should have been written as, What God makes is good.
2. " I thought that it was agreed several posts back that the sun and moon and stars were created (bara) on day four"
My bad, I should have said, "made" (asah). You are correct in spotting my error. God did not create (bara) the sun, moon or stars.
Genesis 1:16 And God made (asah) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made (asah) the stars also.
3. "light isn't just created"
Of course, we are speaking about a great paradox here when we refer to light as being created. When I wrote that, I was thinking along the lines Col 1:15-20 and John 1:1-5 with a dash of Mt 1:18-25. But you are correct, light is not created for God is not created, yet it is formed from that which has always existed and has made visible from the invisible much in the way love is not created, yet it too is formed in a way that it too may be made known.

Now then, I do hope that clears those issues up. You've made a list, so let me respond to your list and let's see where it leads? BTW, I find it more important how something is formed, than the simple statement of "It was created".

God created the earth - heavens --Agreed as a summary statement of all that is created. Scripture often does this where a summary is given, then the detail follows.
God created man --Agreed. He created humanity by forming that which has already been created (earth) and that which always has been. (Gen 1:26, Gen 2:7, ec 12:7)
God created evil and darkness --Agreed. However, I find it important to note that if one takes the "light" away, has darkness really been created or could we say that darkness and evil, though created, are actually within the realm of non-existence. Thus, evil and darkness are created by the absence of good and light.
God created great whales --Agreed, he created them and them formed them.
God created north and south (not east and west - because east and west is eternal, like God is eternal) I'm not sure where you got this. Please provide explanation.

God created the smith that bloweth --Agreed. It is God who governs.
God created the waster --Agreed. It is God who executes judgment.
God created fruit of the lips --Agreed, it is God who grants true peace.
God shall create the new Heavens and new earth --Agreed
God created Jerusalem --Agreed
God created the wind -- I'd have to know what verse your taking about here. Wind as I understand it is ruwach which takes on the form of wind-spirit in terms of breathing and can apply to the earth and all living creatures that have been formed with as a chay nephesh. I believe I've said this before, but to speak, one must breath as it is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out... Thus, God's ruwach is present throughout his creation which brings me back to our topic on darkness. God does not speak darkness into existence but rather, he says, "Let there be light", and light fills the darkness. Which brings me back to what occurs when the light is taken away. From a grand scale in regard to Isiah 45:7, the light had been taken away from Israel and given to the Babylonians, then to the Persians that it would come full circle back to Israel per Deut 28.

Next, we can discuss what God made/forms/make and what he does not made/form/make.

I look forward to it

Hoping your day goes well.

Grace and peace,
Jeff

Hi Jeff

Now we are starting to commune with one another, and this is great ! Commune = basically means -- seeing eye to eye.

First I would like to say that I agree with your statement , that it is more important to understand what is being "formed" rather than what was created. But let us not forget when discussing the word "formed" in the next few days. That the word "made" must also be understood. We will deal with this soon.

The sequence works this way -- First, if necessary, God creates, then makes/made, then forms.

You asked if I would explain God creates the North and the South, but not the east and the west. Well, God cast our sins as far as the east is from the west -- never ending, forever, eternal , never to return, because there is no way one can reach the west by going east. You are always going east when you head in that direction. God is eternal, always was and always will be. The same with light. God is all light, and always was, and always will be. And in him is no darkness, yet , he created darkness.

Now we need to ask ourselves as to how God creates darkness ? The answer is quit simple actually. God is all light. So when darkness becomes manifested. God divides the darkness with his light, as we have read in Gen. 1:3 & 4. This division between light and darkness is what causes the creation of darkness. Now remember this, this does not form or make the darkness, it only divides it. By doing this, God is "revealing" the darkness. When the Word states - "Light dispells darkness" < The true understanding of this means, to expose it, or reveal it.

WE know from the Word that many shall be deceived. Being deceived, needs darkness as its key for the deception. Light, or truth in this case, dispells the darkness, or exposes it. Darkness is still around, but the light (Truth) exposes the untruth of darkness. Just like in Genesis chapter one, God did not get rid of the darkness. In fact the opposite is true. He left the darkness there, but revealed it by the spiritual light. One glimmer of light, like the light of a candle, will expose all the darkness for what it truly is and represents.

God created the wind is in Amos 3:13 ----- I will give you my idea how the wind "came about". High and low pressure systems make wind. I will see if I can find anything in scripture that might indicate this. I never have before, so I might now actually find anything. Then again, you never know what God can show someone from scripture when you least expect it. :yes

Talk to you soon, and have a great day

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[Bick]

Hi Jeff

STOP !!!!!!!!

In Genesis 1:3 God "does not" form light ! God said - "let there be light"

Remember that God is all light, so he does not need to form it. All he has to do is speak it. Speaking light is not forming it. God did not "create" light , remember ? So he does not need to form it !

God does "form" light in Genesis 1:16 -- the word "made" means "form" here.

The amount of light that God spoke , was a certain amount of what He "is" = Light. Just enough to seperate the light from the darkness. Verse 4 shows us that the light God spoke, divides the light from the darkness. Which means that darkness is still around. This is spiritual light to divide the spiritual darkness that is here on the earth. And "that" spiritual darkness is the serpent, whom God put here in the first place, after he kicked him out of heaven and down to earth. And the angel of light became the angel of darkness < Remember ?

I love this conversation we are having --

Love IN Christ - MM

MY COMMENTS: My understanding of Genesis 1:1-5 is, when God created the heavens and the earth, that included the sun and the moon. The earth at first was covered with heavy opaque clouds and debris that light could not penetrate.
The frame of reference then becomes the face of the waters where the Spirit (or breath) of God was moving.
When God said "Let there be light", the opaque covering became translucent so that light could be seen on the waters (similar to a thin cloud layer that let's the sun light in). This was the light of the sun, which meant on one side of the earth there was light (Day), and darkness on the other side of the earth (Night).
Then, on the fourth day (Gen,1:14-18), the details of the sun, moon and stars could be seen, for the firmament (called sky by some) appeared as the cloud layer dissapated into smaller clouds.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mystery:

Create does not always mean - "to form" or "to shape"

They are the same.. God said in gen 1 about the earth In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God said this about the earth in Isa 45:18

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it

 

[Mysteryman]

mystery:

Create does not always mean - "to form" or "to shape"

They are the same.. God said in gen 1 about the earth In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God said this about the earth in Isa 45:18

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it

Hi

Yes, the scriptures are clear that God did make and form the earth.

But ,the word - created - does not mean that God himself forms or makes everything that he creates.

God created evil and darkness, but he never made, nor formed either one.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mystery:

Create does not always mean - "to form" or "to shape"

They are the same.. God said in gen 1 about the earth In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

God said this about the earth in Isa 45:18

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it

Hi

Yes, the scriptures are clear that God did make and form the earth.

But ,the word - created - does not mean that God himself forms or makes everything that he creates.

God created evil and darkness, but he never made, nor formed either one.

You wanna be right so bad, that you dont care what the bible says, thats pitiful and it s pride and arrogance..

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote savedbygrace57 : "You wanna be right so bad, that you dont care what the bible says, thats pitiful and it s pride and arrogance.."

Hi there

I am saddened by your reply. IF you feel that I have missed something, or that I am missunderstanding in any way. Feel free to enlighten me where you think I might be mistaken.

My research and prayers have brought me to this point in my understanding.

Peace

IN Christ - MM

 

[savedbygrace57]

mystery:

I am saddened by your reply.

No you are not, you just wanna justify your rejection of the Truth for your own wisdom..false humility..I have given you the Truth, and you reject it..

 

[glorydaz]

I am saddened by your reply.

mystery:

No you are not, you just wanna justify your rejection of the Truth for your own wisdom..false humility..I have given you the Truth, and you reject it..

I'm wondering why you believe you are the possessor of all Truth.

You don't believe the Bible as written.
You claim all men does not mean all.
You deny Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

What you consistantly do, though, is claim people reject YOUR TRUTH.
Scripture is not given for private interpretation.
Any time someone disagrees with you, you claim they are rejecting Truth.
It's getting old.......

You often make some good points, but statements like the above negate them all.

 

[stovebolts]

Alright peoples, let's start obeying the TOS of this site or warning will be issued.