the Eucharist become the Body of Christ

[Randy]

Here's putting my above idea into action a different way. Randy says it's obvious that some here think taking Communion is essential to Salvation. Personally, I haven't seen that; then again I don't keep up with the theology section that much because the strife I see makes me ill. I find healthy discussion edifying, and a great way to learn as well as to turn my heart and mind towards worship.

Who here holds the view that
no Lord's supper = no Salvation? (And please, no speaking for anyone else)

Or needed to "remain" in Him.

 

[Randy]

Jesus said lots of things with other meanings.

Math 4:4
But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I am quite sure of two things here. Jesus has never given me water. Jesus has given me the gift of God. Christ in me.
John 4:14
but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

A gift is a gift not earned or worked for. The children of the promise.

Gods love is not mans love. His faithfulness endures forever.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

 

[chessman]

and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

And He did just that , give His flesh for the life of the world. And we know why:

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.​

John 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:16&version=LEB

we don't know how the bread and wine become the body and blood.

That’s because no Scripture says ‘the bread and wine become the body and blood’.

We (believers that is) know that He IS the living bread and has risen and He gives us eternal life (not someone else). No dead Savior for us.

I am the living bread having come down from heaven. ​

John 6:51a - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:51&version=DLNT

And we know why He came down from Heaven:

And just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, thus it is necessary that the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”​

John 3:14-15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:14-15&version=LEB

Jesus responded to them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you— you are seeking Me not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves-of-bread and were filled-to-satisfaction. Do not be working for the food which is perishing, but for the food which is remaining to eternal life— which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father certified this One ”.​

John 6:26-27 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:26-27&version=DLNT

We get the living bread (His body) exactly as the Scripture says, He gives it too us. When we believe in Him.

 

[Razeontherock]

Or needed to "remain" in Him.

That's a nice addition to my post, thank you.

 

[ezra]

Communion does not nor has ever saved any one . its not Bible i dont think any of us fully understands the concept of Communion. other than what the elements represent and as oft as we do it. do it in remembrance of him what he done for us

 

[WIP]

All I know is that when I receive communion in fellowship with believers, I thank Jesus for His work.

 

[ezra]

All I know is that when I receive communion in fellowship with believers, I thank Jesus for His work.

i think that is exactly what we should do..had he not where would we be?

 

[Jim Parker]

1 corinth
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes

The question was: "How do you see a "memorial context" supported by John 6:53-58? "
It is in that passage that Jesus gives His most extensive teaching on the Eucharist.
1 Cor is a different passage which does not answer the question I posed.

However, in response to you reference to 1Cor, Jesus said "this IS my body" and "this IS...my blood."
He did not say "This is a remembrance of my body and blood."

iakov the fool

 

[Randy]

The question was: "How do you see a "memorial context" supported by John 6:53-58? "
It is in that passage that Jesus gives His most extensive teaching on the Eucharist.
1 Cor is a different passage which does not answer the question I posed.

However, in response to you reference to 1Cor, Jesus said "this IS my body" and "this IS...my blood."
He did not say "This is a remembrance of my body and blood."

iakov the fool

It is also written in John 6
Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

Did bread literally come down from heaven? or rather was Jesus being symbolic.
This is also in John 6
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Coming to Jesus and believing in Him.

Randy

 

[Jim Parker]

Did bread literally come down from heaven? or rather was Jesus being symbolic.

That is a metaphor.
The repetition of the necessity to eat His flesh and drink His blood, explains the metaphor.

It also explains what He was saying when He gave the bread to His disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” (Mat 26:26) And again, it explains what He was saying when gave them the cup of wine and said, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood..." (Mat 26: 27-28)

It seems to me that it is necessary to purposely choose not to receive Jesus words at face value but instead insist that they are to be understood as "spiritual" or "symbolic" or the establishment of a ritual of memorial.

 

[ezra]

The question was: "How do you see a "memorial context" supported by John 6:53-58? "
It is in that passage that Jesus gives His most extensive teaching on the Eucharist.
1 Cor is a different passage which does not answer the question I posed.

However, in response to you reference to 1Cor, Jesus said "this IS my body" and "this IS...my blood."
He did not say "This is a remembrance of my body and blood."

iakov the fool

you make a interesting point with john .i will say this has caused me to look and see what others has to say. so certainly at this point it is NOT a Memorial. from what i have read he is talking about the birth by partaking of him in our heart ..you may not agree and that is fine with me .i ran across this comment by adam clarke : Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man - Unless ye be made partakers of the blessings about to be purchased by my blood, passion, and violent death, ye cannot be saved. As a man must eat bread and flesh, in order to be nourished by them, so a man must receive the grace and Spirit of Christ, in order to his salvation. As food in a rich man's store does not nourish the poor man that needs it, unless it be given him, and he receive it into his stomach, so the whole fountain of mercy existing in the bosom of God, and uncommunicated, does not save a soul: he who is saved by it must be made a partaker of it. Our Lord's meaning appears to be, that, unless they were made partakers of the grace of that atonement which he was about to make by his death, they could not possibly be saved. Bishop Pearce justly observes that the ideas of eating and drinking are here borrowed to express partaking of, and sharing in. Thus spiritual happiness on earth, and even in heaven, is expressed by eating and drinking; instances of which may be seen,Matthew 8:11; Matthew 26:29; Luke 14:15; Luke 22:30; and Revelation 2:17. Those who were made partakers of the Holy Spirit are said by St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 12:13, to be made to drink into (or of) one Spirit. This, indeed, was a very common mode of expression among the Jews.

while this is not my comments..but it does line up close with how i see it . i want give you credit for pointing out the difference in how in john how he words it compared to paul in remembrance of HIM Christ so at this point i feel from reading this deals with the spiritual birth .

 

[Jim Parker]

i ran across this comment by adam clarke : Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man - Unless ye be made partakers of the blessings about to be purchased by my blood, passion, and violent death, ye cannot be saved. As a man must eat bread and flesh, in order to be nourished by them, so a man must receive the grace and Spirit of Christ, in order to his salvation. As food in a rich man's store does not nourish the poor man that needs it, unless it be given him, and he receive it into his stomach, so the whole fountain of mercy existing in the bosom of God, and uncommunicated, does not save a soul: he who is saved by it must be made a partaker of it. Our Lord's meaning appears to be, that, unless they were made partakers of the grace of that atonement which he was about to make by his death, they could not possibly be saved. Bishop Pearce justly observes that the ideas of eating and drinking are here borrowed to express partaking of, and sharing in. Thus spiritual happiness on earth, and even in heaven, is expressed by eating and drinking; instances of which may be seen,

I've heard similar teaching.
It does have sound pretty good but it also makes Jesus' words into a metaphor when I don't see any reason to do so.
It would have been very easy for Jesus to have explained exactly what Adam Clarke said like He did when HE explained the parable of the Sower and the Wheat and Tares and the cleansing fo food.
But Jesus didn't do that.
He said, (JOhn 6:51) “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” and ( John 6:53-54)"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

In all the earliest records of the Church, other than the NT, the writers unanimously state that they were taught and believe that the bread is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ.

What it seems to me today to be going on is that people are offended by Jesus words (just as many of His disciples were when He said them) and are working overtime to make them mean something other than what Jesus said.

But that's me.

 

[ezra]

he writers unanimously state that they were taught and believe that the bread is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ.

What it seems to me today to be going on is that people are offended by Jesus words (just as many of His disciples were when He said them) and are working overtime to make them mean something other than what Jesus said.

But that's me.

hey you have every right to this belief..im not saying your wrong.. i do disagree to some degree and maybe i just cant find the right words to use to explain my point. written communication is not my best thing... i am by far offended by Jesus words

the bread is the body of Christ and the wine is the blood of Christ.

i am in full agreement on that.. i think my point is how this becomes his body.. it certainly can not be his natural flesh blood . this may always remain a mystery for me .but it has caused me to ponder i think i have examined this from many different ways..
i am not %100 sold out on my understanding.. one thing i have tried to do is not follow just any one type teaching. i try to remain independent i dont want to be labeled a baptist or any other denom . but rather a follower/ disciple of Christ . imo we have to much thus saith my denomination. not enough the Bible says

 

[Randy]

That is a metaphor.
The repetition of the necessity to eat His flesh and drink His blood, explains the metaphor.

It also explains what He was saying when He gave the bread to His disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” (Mat 26:26) And again, it explains what He was saying when gave them the cup of wine and said, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood..." (Mat 26: 27-28)

It seems to me that it is necessary to purposely choose not to receive Jesus words at face value but instead insist that they are to be understood as "spiritual" or "symbolic" or the establishment of a ritual of memorial.

Jesus is speaking to a people whose forefathers ate manna from heaven yet were hungry again. So He tells them metaphorically that He is the living bread that came down from heaven. Those that come to Him will never hunger and those that believe in Him will never thirst. That was the teaching He was trying to get through to them. To come to Him for eternal life.
The same metaphorical language for His disciples. His body would be nailed to a cross and His blood would be for the forgiveness of sin.

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

We are sanctified by faith in Him. Those that come to Him by faith and believe in Him. We are one with Jesus by the Spirit of Christ in us.

When you take communion you are proclaiming Jesus's death for He offered Himself on the cross for the sins of the many. In its done by His own in remembrance of Him and acknowledgement by faith of what He did for us. The bread and wine do not change literally into the flesh and blood of Christ as if those who have been sanctified by faith need such a thing. We are one with Christ Jesus by the Spirit in us which was received to those who come to Jesus by faith.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus is speaking to a people whose forefathers ate manna from heaven yet were hungry again. So He tells them metaphorically that He is the living bread that came down from heaven. Those that come to Him will never hunger and those that believe in Him will never thirst. That was the teaching He was trying to get through to them. To come to Him for eternal life.
The same metaphorical language for His disciples. His body would be nailed to a cross and His blood would be for the forgiveness of sin.

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

We are sanctified by faith in Him. Those that come to Him by faith and believe in Him. We are one with Jesus by the Spirit of Christ in us.

When you take communion you are proclaiming Jesus's death for He offered Himself on the cross for the sins of the many. In its done by His own in remembrance of Him and acknowledgement by faith of what He did for us. The bread and wine do not change literally into the flesh and blood of Christ as if those who have been sanctified by faith need such a thing. We are one with Christ Jesus by the Spirit in us which was received to those who come to Jesus by faith.

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Well, Randy, the Church has taught from the first century that the bread and wine are the body and blood of the Lord. Since they were the people taught by the apostles, I'll accept their testimony rather than put my meager supply of grey cells to the taxing task of figuring it out for myself.

Your mileage may vary.

iakov the fool

 

[ezra]

the bread wine represents his body and blood.. it does become his body the exact manner is the mystery we can not deny what Christ said in his word

 

[lisa-in-FL]

The question was: "How do you see a "memorial context" supported by John 6:53-58? "
It is in that passage that Jesus gives His most extensive teaching on the Eucharist.
1 Cor is a different passage which does not answer the question I posed.

However, in response to you reference to 1Cor, Jesus said "this IS my body" and "this IS...my blood."
He did not say "This is a remembrance of my body and blood."

iakov the fool

Actually, Jesus did say that . . Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Also, please tell me a little more about this Church you refer to that was taught by the Apostles and was apparently in complete agreement about everything?

 

[Jim Parker]

Actually, Jesus did say that . . Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Also, please tell me a little more about this Church you refer to that was taught by the Apostles and was apparently in complete agreement about everything?

I don't know that there was ever "complete" agreement. Even when we are in complete agreement, what you agree upon is colored by your experience as mine is by my experience. It is not a "mathematical" equality.

It is that Church which is the sum of all the churches founded by the apostles. Within about a century, there were Christians from England to India. Their basic theology was quite uniform to the extent that it had been developed by that time.

"The Didache" is an example of the essentials of Christianity by the end of the 1st century.

The writings of the first 800 years of the church are available on line (Early Church Fathers). I had the printed set of 32 volumes but donated it to a church library. Anyway, I mention 32 volumes to describe a very large body of information. It is a field in which one could write their doctoral dissertation on a very small percentage of the total.

But, in a nutshell, the Church to which I refer is the Church founded by the apostles of the first century which remained unified for many centuries. It is the church described in Acts and the church to whom Paul, Peter, John and James wrote letters.

 

[Jim Parker]

the bread wine represents his body and blood.. it does become his body the exact manner is the mystery we can not deny what Christ said in his word

I believe that is a good description of the mystery.
The eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Coptic churches refer to it as a "Mystery" because it is beyond human understanding. We accept what the church has always taught based on scripture and the teaching of the apostles without requiring that the way it all happens be explained in scientific detail.

 

[chessman]

Taking the body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist does not provide any kind of "spiritual charge."

Jesus responded, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. The thing having been born of the flesh is flesh, and the thing having been born of the Spirit is spirit.​

John 3:5-6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5-6&version=DLNT

Just as the physical body of a baby needs food, the spiritual soul of a new babe in Christ needs its spiritual food too (the Eucharist).

The Father gives food and drink to all men for nourishment. But the Father freely gives His spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Christ to the church (the body of Christ).

It seems to me that it is necessary to purposely choose not to receive Jesus words at face value but instead insist that they are to be understood as "spiritual"

Jesus’s words are spirit and life (eternal life):

The Spirit is the One giving-life. The flesh profits nothing. The words which I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.​

John 6:63 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:63&version=DLNT

the Church has taught from the first century that the bread and wine are the body and blood of the Lord.

And he having pondered these things, behold— an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream saying “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for the child having been fathered in her is by the Holy Spirit.​

Matthew 1:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 1:20&version=DLNT

Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion.​

​

You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant​

​

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html​

​

After each communion, the early church recognized and remembered that they’d received spiritual food and drink and thanked God for giving Him.