The Existence of the Godhead

[D4Christ]

Part 2 of 2

If this interpretation is correct, Jesus can logically fill only one role in the parable: YHWH returning to Zion as promised. And this means, of course, that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel’s God.
…Why should we read the parable this way? Well, for starters, the parable does not really work on its traditional reading. Note what happens to the third servant – all that he has is taken from him. This really cannot be reconciled with the notion that the returning King is Jesus at his 2nd coming, calling his people to account. Nowhere in the New Testament is there even the slightest suggestion that any of Jesus’ followers will be cast out and lose all at Jesus’ 2nd coming as the parable would seem to suggest on the traditional reading. It is clear from the scriptures that that believers who “build with hay and stubble†will still be saved. So it is very hard to make the parable work with Jesus as the King about to go away and return at a 2nd coming.
…[Parable of the 10 servants] This parable has almost universally been understood to constitute a statement by Jesus that He will go away, though crucifixion, resurrection, and then ascension, only to return in the future (i.e. in the 2nd coming). On such a reading, Jesus sets Himself, as He tells the parable, in the role of the king who is about to leave.
I suggest this is not the correct reading. Instead, we should understand that in telling the parable, Jesus is setting Himself in the role of the returning king, not the departing one….

I disagree with your assessment. What about the 1st part of the parable of Luke 19:

12 He said, “A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13 Before he left, he called together ten of his servants and divided among them ten pounds of silver, saying, ‘Invest this for me while I am gone.’ 14 But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We do not want him to be our king.’

This parallels what happened to Christ. As God’s Son (nobleman), Christ was sent to earth to fulfil scriptures as the promised Messiah and future King of Israel. As Messiah He would be killed, but before ascending to his Father, Christ tells His people (1) He will return and (2) To spread His gospel and follow his decrees until He returns. But instead of receiving His gospel many people then and even today still reject His message and therefore did not want Him as their King.

This is the 2nd part of the parable:

15 “After he was crowned king, he returned and called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what their profits were…
20 “But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, ‘Master, I hid your money and kept it safe. 21 I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn’t yours and harvesting crops you didn’t plant.’
24 “Then, turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who has ten pounds.’
25 “‘But, master,’ they said, ‘he already has ten pounds!’
26 “‘Yes,’ the king replied, ‘and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. 27 And as for these enemies of mine who didn’t want me to be their king—bring them in and execute them right here in front of me.’â€

This part of the parables states what will happen when Christ returns as King.. for we will all be judged according to our deeds. There are plenty of NT scriptures that show how believers can loose all at Christ return if they are not prepared. Remember Rev 1-3….Christs’ message was not for the unbeliever…he was speaking to the churches.

Rev 3 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.

15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!

Rev 2
4 “But I have this complaint against you. You don’t love me or each other as you did at first! 5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to me and do the works you did at first. If you don’t repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.

20 “But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality.
22 “Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve.

1 Peter 1
17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as “foreigners in the land.â€

Matthew 6
“Watch out! Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven.

Then Christ tells us this in Luke 12:

42 And the Lord replied, “A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. 43 If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. 44 I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. 45 But what if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? 46 The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant in pieces and banish him with the unfaithful.
47 “And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

Christ is speaking to his “servants†not unbelievers. Christ’s servants will loose what they have if they do not follow His rules. They will be rewarded according to their deeds or could even be cast out if they are in complete disobedience.

The overall picture is clear. As per an earlier post, we have the strong Biblical tradition of the promised return of YHWH to Zion (and his temple) after the time of the exile. Now here, in Luke, we have the journey of a young Jew named Jesus to Jerusalem. As He is about to enter, He tells a parable of a king who goes away and then returns. Next, He laments over Jerusalem and declares that she is not recognizing His mission as a “visitationâ€. In the context of Jews who saw themselves still in exile, and still awaiting the return of YHWH, Jesus’ intended meaning is clear. In saying that Jerusalem has not recognized her visitation, He is saying that she has failed to recognize that, in His very actions, the promised return of YHWH to Zion is being fulfilled. And then Jesus enters the temple and overturns the tables in judgement, fulfilling the Malach 3 promise that YHWH will come suddenly to the temple in judgement. The coherence of this picture is compelling. Jesus is embodying the return of YHWH to Zion. And that, of course, makes Him the embodiment of Israel’s God.

Christ stating that Jews missed the visitation is saying that they did not recognize Him as the opportunity for salvation because ultimately they rejected Him as their Messiah. His actions were not indicating His return to Zion for that does not happen until He comes again.

Christ had two roles to fulfil. In His 1st role He came as Messiah and Saviour. His mission was to draw men to himself, so that they would know his Father. In His 2nd role, he comes as judge and He will destroy those opposed to Him and set up His kingdom on Zion for His millennial reign . Malachi 3 is not the promise of Yahushua coming to the Temple. And if one reads all of Malachi 3, then it becomes clear that the other conditions of this passage where not fulfilled when Christ ran everyone out of the temple.

Malachi 3

“Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. Then the Lord you are seeking will suddenly come to his Temple. The messenger of the covenant, whom you look for so eagerly, is surely coming,†says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
2 “But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal, or like a strong soap that bleaches clothes. 3 He will sit like a refiner of silver, burning away the dross. He will purify the Levites, refining them like gold and silver, so that they may once again offer acceptable sacrifices to the Lord. 4 Then once more the Lord will accept the offerings brought to him by the people of Judah and Jerusalem, as he did in the past.
5 “At that time I will put you on trial. I am eager to witness against all sorcerers and adulterers and liars. I will speak against those who cheat employees of their wages, who oppress widows and orphans, or who deprive the foreigners living among you of justice, for thes people do not fear me,†says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.

After Christ’s appearance in the Temple, was he like fire to people around him…did he purify the Levites, and did he put on trial adulterers and liars? No…soon after this incident he was killed.

 

[Anth]

the Father (God) beget a Son (God).

D

I generally liked what you wrote because it was nearly reflective of the relationship of the Father and the Son that Jesus gave us in Jn 4 - 6. HOWEVER, the notion that the Father only begets "gods" is a little odd in that

a. The Father begat Adam (Adam is called the son of God)

b. The Father begat us (again) - but we are not "little gods", etc.

I think it is best to simply say that the Father created Jesus by His spirit - that is more or less what we see in Heb2:11.

Best,
Anth

 

[D4Christ]

hi D4Christ -
Jesus was praying for His Body, if we are believers in Him, we are His Body, we are all one with Him. He is the head of the Body. it is a union with Christ in the Father, indwelling us with His Spirit, we are one. He was also praying for unity among the believers.
the ASV version says:
John 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me.

your assertion that we can place Trinity where "one" is used, is not what Jesus was trying to show us in this particular scripture. He was trying to show us we are all one, in Him. there are numerous other passages together that explain the Trinity, but it seems you want someone's opinion and not the scripture themselves.

the scriptures can not be broken and we can spend all day on one verse and try to prove a point using that one verse, but that is not the intention of scripture, when we use all of scripture, it's easier to come to the truth.

Hi Dar,
As someone who tries to be obedient and quotes scriptures to back every assertion, I am not interested in anyone’s opinion. Aside from the scriptures where Christ plainly tells us that being One with His Father is being in a state of unity with him and not number, I have not seen another trinity scripture that backs up the idea of 3 in 1. In good grammatical form, a synonym of a word in question should be able to be used in place of the actual word and still make sense. Placing the word trinity where one is used is just one way to show how inaccurate it is for those who believe in trinity, to try to use the verses I quoted as proof of trinity. It does not make sense.

And the question still remains….if Christ is co-equal with His Father, then why does He never state this? Therefore the definition that was given of Godhead – glory equal, majesty co-equal is wrong imho.

1). Jesus came to not only die for our sins and overcome death, He was also here as an example for us, He was a servant while He was here, just as we should serve one another.

2). He was also worshipped while He was on earth, twice that i recall, Thomas worshipped Him and said, "my Lord, my God" and when He calmed the storm, they worshipped Him. if He was not God, He should have corrected them, either that or He was a complete sham - which we both know He was not.

God, the Father called His Son Lord. Was the Father confused? I never said Christ was not God. The Father calls Christ God. He is begotten of the Father…his essence therefore cannot be anything different than the Father’s. My point is that while he shares the ‘very characteristics’ of His Father, that Christ himself stated on several occasions that He gets authority and permission from the Father to do all that He does. Although Christ is God , he never makes a case for thinking himself to be equal to His Father, especially considering that Christ, also calls His Father His God.

So if Christ and His Father are one person, how did Christ sit with His Father on his throne? Why do scriptures consistently speak of Father and Son separately, sitting with one another, speaking with one another….Christ praying to His Father....then both being present in the New Jerusalem?

Rev 3

20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

Why are there two different thrones if there is only one person? Trinity is a confusing concept, written by confused men, who brow beat believers with this misinformation for so long that most are afraid to challenge it, some even believing the lie that the trinity is a mystery of our faith when the scriptures never indicate it as such. Some think it is no big deal. But I know for a fact that muslim numbers have increased because the church could not explain this concept to some people who, rather than by frustrated under Christianity, ran to Islam.

For a concept this important one would think the scriptures would scream this message. To date the “we are one†scriptures were the best shot at this and even you agree, in that case ‘one’ meant unity. I still have yet to read the scripture that states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Anth]

I still have yet to read the scripture that states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person.

D - To clarify, I know that Darcy does not believe that the F, S, HS are all one person - only one essence....

I still wonder about Adam being called the Son of God - was he the same essence as God and Jesus??

Thanks,
Anth

 

[glorydaz]

This part of the parables states what will happen when Christ returns as King.. for we will all be judged according to our deeds. There are plenty of NT scriptures that show how believers can loose all at Christ return if they are not prepared. Remember Rev 1-3….Christs’ message was not for the unbeliever…he was speaking to the churches. In the same way, Paul speaks to the church at Corinth...not all who belong to the church are born again.

Peter is speaking to those hearing the gospel as well as to believers. Those who are hoping for the grace that is brought as Jesus is revealed to them. Those who will be judged on their works and those who trust in the work of the cross. Believers will not be judged on our works...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, but we do not enter into comdemnation once we're born again.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Those who are born again cannot sin...we have a positional righteousness because Christ dwells in us.[quote="1 John 3:7-9":rc0o1dui]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Matt. 6 isn't referring to believers, either. These are the hypocrites who claim to know the Lord.

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Christ is speaking to his “servants†not unbelievers. Christ’s servants will loose what they have if they do not follow His rules. They will be rewarded according to their deeds or could even be cast out if they are in complete disobedience.[/quote:rc0o1dui]
Everlasting life is something that cannot be taken away.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:14 - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[D4Christ]

the Father (God) beget a Son (God).

D

I generally liked what you wrote because it was nearly reflective of the relationship of the Father and the Son that Jesus gave us in Jn 4 - 6. HOWEVER, the notion that the Father only begets "gods" is a little odd in that

a. The Father begat Adam (Adam is called the son of God)

Yes scriptures state Adam was the son of God. Scriptures never state Adam was begotten. Adam was created from dust. The only one begat from God was Christ who was called the only begotten Son.

1 Corinthians 15
45 The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.†But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. 46 What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. 47 Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven. 48 Earthly people are like the earthly man, and heavenly people are like the heavenly man. 49 Just as we are now like the earthly man, we will someday be like the heavenly man.

Genesis 2
7 Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.

Genesis 3
19 By the sweat of your brow
will you have food to eat
until you return to the ground
from which you were made.
For you were made from dust,
and to dust you will return.â€

b. The Father begat us (again) - but we are not "little gods", etc.

If Adam came from dust, then we as descendants of Adam also come from dust. There is no scripture that states man is begotten of God.

Also, I am not sure if your reference to “little gods†is referring to psalm 82 and John 10 when Christ states ‘ye are gods.†I have did this research myself and came to the same conclusion as this author…so I am going to quote him to save myself some time

Ye are Gods

Question: "What does the Bible mean by “you are gods†/ "ye are gods" in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?"

Answer: Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods†in Psalm 82:6 is elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.†It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods†refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god†indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.

This use of the word “gods†to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh†(Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word elohim is translated “judges†in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.

The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.†This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.

Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.†Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of Godâ€; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,†how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?

In contrast, we have the serpent’s lie to Eve in the Garden. His statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil†(Genesis 3:5), was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men can be thought of as gods; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods†or “little gods.†We are not God. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.

I think it is best to simply say that the Father created Jesus by His spirit - that is more or less what we see in Heb2:11.

Best,
Anth

Hebrew 2
11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters. 12 For he said to God,
“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.â€
13 He also said,
“I will put my trust in him,â€
that is, “I and the children God has given me.â€
14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had[g] the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters,[h] so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.

The above passage states Christ became flesh…indicating that he existed in another form before becoming human. This does not say he was created. The scriptures repeatedly say Christ existed with the Father since the beginning. They also say he is begotten of the Father.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Anth]

D

Thanks for your thoughtful answer.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Here is a better translation of Heb 11 and shows that Jesus was created by God in the same way we are (Heb 2:17 - "him TO BE MADE" says the same) - you can see it best in the Greek if you have a greek interlinear.

The above passage states Christ became flesh…indicating that he existed in another form before becoming human.

IPet1:20 tells us that Jesus was foreknown - he was obviously not existing prior to that time - this is likewise seen in Heb1:1 in which God did NOT speak through Jesus prior to his being created and born.

I think a lot of people get hung up on some of the different modes of expression which in a couple places - esp. if the translators bend the translation according to their Christology - will seem like Jesus is referencing an existence in heaven prior to his birth. However, we must remember that Jesus is simply saying that he came from God and that he uses various pictures to do so - similar to using the picture of the Temple in Jn 2 - "destroy this temple and I will raise it in three days". If it was not for the fact that this passage was annotated, we would have the some wonderment as do the Jews. In the case of a couple of these other passages - there is no annotation.

Bottom line - Jesus was just like us (Heb - that means he MUST have had a human person. Therefore, either there are two persons or Jesus is a genuine man - and God in a positional sense (like Moses (BTW - thanks for that passage I had long forgotten about it - BTW2 - it does not use the word "like" in the Heb but actually just says "Elohim" PLURAL (I believe)) which in fact is what scripture teaches.

Best,
Anth

 

[glorydaz]

And the question still remains….if Christ is co-equal with His Father, then why does He never state this? Therefore the definition that was given of Godhead – glory equal, majesty co-equal is wrong imho.

God, the Father called His Son Lord. Was the Father confused? I never said Christ was not God. The Father calls Christ God. He is begotten of the Father…his essence therefore cannot be anything different than the Father’s. My point is that while he shares the ‘very characteristics’ of His Father, that Christ himself stated on several occasions that He gets authority and permission from the Father to do all that He does. Although Christ is God , he never makes a case for thinking himself to be equal to His Father, especially considering that Christ, also calls His Father His God.

So if Christ and His Father are one person, how did Christ sit with His Father on his throne? Why do scriptures consistently speak of Father and Son separately, sitting with one another, speaking with one another….Christ praying to His Father....then both being present in the New Jerusalem?

Why are there two different thrones if there is only one person? Trinity is a confusing concept, written by confused men, who brow beat believers with this misinformation for so long that most are afraid to challenge it, some even believing the lie that the trinity is a mystery of our faith when the scriptures never indicate it as such. Some think it is no big deal. But I know for a fact that muslim numbers have increased because the church could not explain this concept to some people who, rather than by frustrated under Christianity, ran to Islam.

For a concept this important one would think the scriptures would scream this message. To date the “we are one†scriptures were the best shot at this and even you agree, in that case ‘one’ meant unity. I still have yet to read the scripture that states that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person.

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Here we see Jesus IN the bosom of the Father.

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If you were God and came in the form of a man, how would you describe yourself? As a man, he spoke as a man....when His job on earth was finished, He returned to being God...the glory He had from the beginning... He had created all things. He is the Creator.

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Here Jesus is the Mighty God...the Everlasting Father.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This "God with us" is the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God spoken of in Isaiah.

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[D4Christ]

Peter is speaking to those hearing the gospel as well as to believers. Those who are hoping for the grace that is brought as Jesus is revealed to them. Those who will be judged on their works and those who trust in the work of the cross. Believers will not be judged on our works...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, but we do not enter into comdemnation once we're born again.

Thanks for your observance. This is a discussion in and of itself as it could easily turn into a Once saved always saved debate. I will point out though that you state ‘believers will not be judged on our works.’ But the very scripture you quote says this:

1 Peter 1
17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as “foreigners in the land.â€

I do believe that true believers will not loose their salvation. However, the question is are you REALLY a true believer? Apparently many think so..they know Christ…they walked with Christ…they may have even preached Christ. But it is Christ who says that He will reject these people because they did not really belong to him.

Matt 7

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Obviously, these were people who thought they knew and served Christ. Even the parable of the ten virgins speaks of 2 sets of women eagerly awaiting Christ’s return. We would say they were both Christians. Yet the group without enough oil was cast into outer darkness.

So, I think its very dangerous, especially for today’s Christians to get too comfortable and think because they gave their life to Christ they will be safe….because if you keep on sinning as stated in 1 John 3, you can’t really belong to him. How many of today’s Christians excuse their sinning…get comfortable with it and have no intention of really changing their lives. I have seen so many Christians make excuses for their behavior by stating, ‘God knows my heart.’ Unfortunately (or fortunately) for them, us, everybody… God sees pass our fakeness and I think many people who “know†him will be told to get away from him. That is why I think scriptures contain so many warnings for believers to be on their guard and to keep watch, so that the DOL does not sneak up on them.

The DOL is the day of God’s wrath. If you are a believer, you should be raptured right before this day occurs. So, does it seem strange that the Lord would be warning believers that they might have a day creep up on them that, if they are a believer, they should miss.


However, it is 1:00 am on the east coast and I’m getting ready to retire for the night or else I would post plenty of scriptures showing warnings for believers not to loose rewards or face possible punishment.

Take care,
Dee

 

[Anth]

Here Jesus is the Mighty God...the Everlasting Father.

Glory

With all due respect - don't you see the fundamental inconsistency in your statement.....

You are stating that Jesus is the "Everlasting Father".... That is Modalism - NOT Trinitarianism....

???

Best,
Anth

 

[DarcyLu]

Christ does not see himself as the Father incarnate, like some confused Buddha. Christ always understood that His role was to implement His Father’s plan as Saviour and ruler of Israel. There is no place in scripture where He compares His role as equal to His Father’s.

hi D4Christ,
then why does Jesus allow others to worship Him? God said He would not give His glory to another.

 

[DarcyLu]

I think it is best to simply say that the Father created Jesus by His spirit - that is more or less what we see in Heb2:11.

Best,
Anth

hi Anth,
yet Jesus said He was before Abraham was born; He said He was the "I AM' when used in this context, we know God always said He was the "I AM", so essentially Jesus is saying He was and is God.

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

 

[DarcyLu]

Darcy,

Very good - I am aware of Paul's statement (as well as, I believe, other instances that I don't recall but have seen). In fact, Paul specifically states "I am that I am" (hmmm...kind of sounds like Ex 3:14 - are you sure he is not claiming to be Jehovah by using the same words...???)

you honestly believe Paul is claiming he is Jehovah here? in all the other letters, he knew who he was in Christ and that was an apostle.

 

[glorydaz]

Here Jesus is the Mighty God...the Everlasting Father.

Glory

With all due respect - don't you see the fundamental inconsistency in your statement.....

You are stating that Jesus is the "Everlasting Father".... That is Modalism - NOT Trinitarianism....

???

Best,
Anth

It isn't Modalism at all since modalism claims God ceased being God when He became Jesus.
And I'm giving you scripture...I've said nothing but what Scripture says. There is only one God...not three Gods. One God. It's pretty simple, especially when you realize that Jesus was God come in the flesh. He didn't cease being God....ever.

 

[DarcyLu]

Here Jesus is the Mighty God...the Everlasting Father.

Glory

With all due respect - don't you see the fundamental inconsistency in your statement.....

You are stating that Jesus is the "Everlasting Father".... That is Modalism - NOT Trinitarianism....

???

Best,
Anth

It isn't Modalism at all since modalism claims God ceased being God when He became Jesus.
And I'm giving you scripture...I've said nothing but what Scripture says. There is only one God...not three Gods. One God. It's pretty simple, especially when you realize that Jesus was God come in the flesh. He didn't cease being God....ever.

 

[glorydaz]

Peter is speaking to those hearing the gospel as well as to believers. Those who are hoping for the grace that is brought as Jesus is revealed to them. Those who will be judged on their works and those who trust in the work of the cross. Believers will not be judged on our works...we will be rewarded according to our obedience, but we do not enter into comdemnation once we're born again.

Thanks for your observance. This is a discussion in and of itself as it could easily turn into a Once saved always saved debate. I will point out though that you state ‘believers will not be judged on our works.’ But the very scripture you quote says this:

1 Peter 1
17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as “foreigners in the land.â€

I do believe that true believers will not loose their salvation. However, the question is are you REALLY a true believer? Apparently many think so..they know Christ…they walked with Christ…they may have even preached Christ. But it is Christ who says that He will reject these people because they did not really belong to him.

Matt 7
[quote:1fjhwwo2] 21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Obviously, these were people who thought they knew and served Christ. Even the parable of the ten virgins speaks of 2 sets of women eagerly awaiting Christ’s return. We would say they were both Christians. Yet the group without enough oil was cast into outer darkness.

So, I think its very dangerous, especially for today’s Christians to get too comfortable and think because they gave their life to Christ they will be safe….because if you keep on sinning as stated in 1 John 3, you can’t really belong to him. How many of today’s Christians excuse their sinning…get comfortable with it and have no intention of really changing their lives. I have seen so many Christians make excuses for their behavior by stating, ‘God knows my heart.’ Unfortunately (or fortunately) for them, us, everybody… God sees pass our fakeness and I think many people who “know†him will be told to get away from him. That is why I think scriptures contain so many warnings for believers to be on their guard and to keep watch, so that the DOL does not sneak up on them.

The DOL is the day of God’s wrath. If you are a believer, you should be raptured right before this day occurs. So, does it seem strange that the Lord would be warning believers that they might have a day creep up on them that, if they are a believer, they should miss.


However, it is 1:00 am on the east coast and I’m getting ready to retire for the night or else I would post plenty of scriptures showing warnings for believers not to loose rewards or face possible punishment.

Take care,
Dee[/quote:1fjhwwo2]
There are many people who claim to be saved but aren't.
Those who have been born again do not come under condemnation.
We should be encouraging people to examine themselves to be sure they are truly saved, not suggesting that those who have been born again can ever fall away. It's important when reading the Word that we realize the hearers were a mixed lot. Saved and unsaved....which is why there were so many exhortations. Are we new creatures? Have we a circumcised heart? Have we entered into the rest? Do we have assurance? If we can answer yes, then we will not "fall away" since we have been born again and have entered into eternal life.

 

[DarcyLu]

Darcy,

Very good - I am aware of Paul's statement (as well as, I believe, other instances that I don't recall but have seen). In fact, Paul specifically states "I am that I am" (hmmm...kind of sounds like Ex 3:14 - are you sure he is not claiming to be Jehovah by using the same words...???)

what exactly does ego eimi mean then??

in John 9:9, it means the blind guy was referring to himself, we have to read it in context. do you know how many times "i am" shows up in scripture? when Jesus says He is the I am before Abraham - what do you think He was saying?

And why does the context in Jn8:58 mean anything different than the standard usage (since standard usage is the default hermenutic)???

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
It means He is the "I am"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
God described Himself using "I AM", the Israelites needed no other description than "I AM".

 

[Anth]

OK - you have me a little at a loss...

How come the blind guy uses the same words and it only means he is referring that he is the blind guy but somehow when Jesus uses the exact same words it means he is Jehovah - there is NOTHING in the context to indicate that he is Jehovah. In fact, though, there is a context and the context is that He is the Light of the World (it begins in v12) and completes at the end of Jn 9 with Jesus healing the blind man (a physical application of the spiritual reality).

So help me out - where is Jehovah in the context since ego eimi does not necessarily refer to Jehovah...

Best,
Anth

 

[DarcyLu]

OK - you have me a little at a loss...

How come the blind guy uses the same words and it only means he is referring that he is the blind guy but somehow when Jesus uses the exact same words it means he is Jehovah - there is NOTHING in the context to indicate that he is Jehovah. In fact, though, there is a context and the context is that He is the Light of the World (it begins in v12) and completes at the end of Jn 9 with Jesus healing the blind man (a physical application of the spiritual reality).

So help me out - where is Jehovah in the context since ego eimi does not necessarily refer to Jehovah...

Best,
Anth

why are you at a loss, it's so simple lol, because Jesus said BEFORE Abraham was born, I AM??? He is telling us He was in existance before Abraham, He was telling us HE IS GOD!

 

[Anth]

WHOA!!! Not so fast there ..

Two separate issues.

First, we now know that "ego eimi" does not mean Jehovah - since we have uses by individuals who are clearly not Jehovah. You and I agree on this. Correct??

Therefore, Jesus using ego eimi does not mean he is saying that he is Jehovah.

Therefore, the issue is his statement about being before Abraham. The reality is that just because he talked about himself prior to Abraham does NOT mean that he is calling himself Jehovah (since ego eimi does not mean that one is Jehovah (which, btw, is correct - it does not mean that - it is a different Greek phrase that does) and there is NOTHING in the context that would tell us that he was claiming to be Jehovah (if you know of something, clue me in because I have read this passage 50 times over 30 years and never once seen it since we know that ego eimi does not mean Jehovah). He is simply saying that before Abraham was, he was something (which, in this case, the context decides (as you noted) and the context is - THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!

Best,
Anth