The Existence of the Godhead

[Cornelius]

I certainly do....and I also know to what He is referring. The judges...they aren't gods, either. :biglaugh

I think I answered you as well in my previous post. Be careful that your dislike in me, do not cause you to stumble and miss something that God wants you to see. You are misunderstanding me in most of my posts and you have displayed your feelings about me in many post. I really do not mind for myself, but I care about you.

I know that what I am saying almost all the time is in direct opposition to what you believe.That in itself must make us think. How is it possible that two Christians can believe in the same gospel and yet believe in two separate ways? When a conflict arises, we normally run to our doctrines and reaffirm through the opinions of other like-minded people, that we respect. And yet that in itself is wrong in the eyes of God. He wants us to continually be on our knees before Him asking for HIS truth.

I pray Psalm 119 (parts of it LOL ) most days. I pray it from the bottom of my heart and I mean every word of it. There is so much truth that we still do not know and only God has the way to open our understanding about it.The church is so content to just believe what they have been taught over the ages. Its sad, because there is really a treasure to be found. A pearl of great price and it is indeed hidden. Wisdom is hidden. The Bible teaches us that. Its not in the open, like we like to believe; Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it. We all know that "manna" is a type for the Word of God.

I am really trying to share some of the things that I have been shown over the 30 years of being a Christian. Much of it came through great trials and tears. I had to ask , knock and knock again.In faith we wait patiently and then the Lord, in His grace, can open our understanding. We all have different levels of what we know and understand.

So if I have offended you, please forgive me and let us seek the truth together, without malice.

your brother in Christ
Cornelius

 

[D4Christ]

Part 1 of 2

I’m sorry I did not mean to make you feel resentful. Just from my perspective it’s difficult to understand that the one thing the people you’ve had experiences with couldn’t find believable about Christianity is that God consists of 3 persons but is one entity, but all the stuff about God coming to earth as man, dying for our sins on the cross and coming back from the dead made sense to them?

Apology accepted. Trinity discussion is not taken lightly I know. And trust me when I tell you that the decision to openly speak of this was not easy. But I feel compelled to speak and that is stronger than my personal feelings being hurt in cyberspace.

As far as the people I’ve encountered….I didn’t say any of what we discussed made sense to them. But their Koran (which I have read) consistently makes of point of pointing out what they think are obvious flaws in Christianity and Judaism. Christ never saying he is the Father is just one of their arguments. However, unlike most Christians, I argue that the Father is the only God to whom we all must serve, including Christ…while still proving that Christ is God (in nature) though Christ himself tells us he gets all authority from His Father and that by obeying Christ we are obeying the Father who sent him.

They didn’t just invent the idea of the Trinity, it was revealed to them by the Holy Spirit through their study of scripture, which there is much evidence for:

The Trinitarian Theology of St. Basil of Caesarea

In defining the Holy Trinity as we Orthodox understand it today, it is important to view the contributions of the Cappadocian Fathers. In particular, one must be familiar with St. Basil of Caesarea and his Trinitarian theology. This essay will explore the primary contribution of St. Basil towards clarifying the ambiguous terminology put forth by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. and therefore gain insight into his Trinitarian theology.

The Council of Nicea was convened in an effort to end the Arian heresy which subordinated the Son and made him a created being of a different essence than God the Father. The Nicean council succeeded in having the term homoousios added to the creed of Nicea to define the relationship of Father and Son in the Trinity. Unfortunately, this term was unclear since ousia was also a synonym of the term hypostasis. The creed of this famous council reflects this fact stating, "But as for those...who assert that the Son of God is from a different hypostasis or substance [ousia]... these the Catholic Church anathematizes."1
The Niceans, Athanasius in particular, had no technical way to express the distinctness of the persons in the Trinity. In other words, the Trinity’s essence (ousia) is one, and they are three – but three what? Athanasius' troubles lay in the fact that for him, there was little if any difference in these terms ousia and hypostasis.2 This is illustrated in his Ad Afros Epistola Synodica where he writes, "...now subsistence (hypostasis) is essence (ousia), and nothing else but very being...."3 Athanasius reproaches the Arians for saying that the Son is of another hypostasis (in other words ousia or nature/essence for Athanasius) than the Father.4 Because of this fundamental lack of differentiating terms, Athanasius may appear to be venturing dangerously close to the Sabellian heresy (modalism) where the one divine being (one essence) exists not in 3 distinct persons, but in 3 different modes of action. Athanasius was uneasily aware of this fact, but was handicapped by the lack of the words to distinguish what God is as Three from what God is as One.5

My point…trinity discussion did have a beginning…whether they were feeling the Holy Spirit or wrangling with politics is up to you to decide.

In the interest of space I will only address the 1st scripture in this post…. I will get back to the others.

Matthew 28:19

19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Father’s name is YHWH. The Son says he comes…not in His own name...but in the name of His Father. The Son also says that he does what he does by the power of the name the Father gave him….which just happens to be the Father’s name. So, if the Son is acting in the name of His Father, then name of the Father, as well as the other names/titles given to the Father, ie. Ancient of Days, Everlasting Father, would also apply to the Son, since it is the Son who for all intents and purposes, is using his Father’s name. Interestingly enough the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son’s name.

John 14

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

How many times have we bought tickets or received some better service because we used the name of a friend who had discounts and agreed to let us use their name (not fraudulently of course) to get a better deal. So it is the same with the Son, who operates his authority by using the name the Father gave Him.

Matthew 28:19

19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father [Jesus Christ (aka Yahushua)] and the Son ( Jesus Christ (Yahushua)] and the Holy Spirit [Jesus Christ {Yahushua)].

Notice how the verse says ‘in the name’…singular. If there was more than one name involved we would be baptizing in the names…plural, therefore using the names of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, each of whom have their own name. However, scriptures clearly state that the Son uses the Father’s name and the HS comes in the Son’s name. The Son’s name is the only common denominator between the Father and the HS.

 

[D4Christ]

Part 2 of 2

What you’re describing is the order of their relationship, which does not have anything to do with whether they are equals or not.

Do you work at a job? Do you have a boss? Are you not, as humans, equal despite you having different roles? Are you not afforded the same rights as every other citizen in the U.S., despite your standing in society?

It’s also no different then how a husband and wife are described, they’re equal but with different roles in a marriage relationship… It’s the same with God the Father and God the Son, it’s the order of their relationship, not the equality.

Order of their relationship? Then fine. I think it may be the nature of their relationship that is described but I will get pass that. Since you used the example of a husband and wife, why not just use the example that God gave us…..of a Father to a Son. I love my children. I am human so I begot other humans. We are genetically the same. We belong to the group known as human. Though genetically the same, we are not equals. There is a hierarchy to the human family that mirrors the ‘order of things’ if you will in the heavenly realm. My son is not equal to me. I have authority over him. I begot him…I named him. And what authority he does have I gave it to him….He cannot go outside of the limits I have placed on him….he obeys me and tries to please me…and one day I will even given him my wealth as an inheritance. It should sound familiar because this is how Christ describes his relationship with His Father.

Btw…I am not equal to my boss. I don’t get the same pay, perks or recognition. We are both human, but as my boss, they are superior to me in authority (security clearance, passwords and access) and have more responsibility than me. That is why companies us the term insubordination…failure to be subordinate to one higher than you.

Q. If you are under someone’s authority, how can you be equal to them?

1 Corinthians 15:

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.†(Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,†that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

I’m just not sure how you reconcile certain passages such as 1 Cor. 2: 6-16, where it says specifically the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, a being that is God yet exists separately from God the Father.

I would suggest that you read this passage again. It does not specifically state the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. If I have learned one thing from my studies it is that all kinds of spirits exist in the heavenly realm (God’s Spirit [or Spirit of God], Christ’s Spirit, seven Spirits before the throne, etc) and that every time the word Spirit is mentioned I cannot attribute it to the Holy Spirit. The verses you quote only used the word Holy Spirit in verse 4. Each verse from then on out speaks of God’s Spirit and the Spirit. As I continue to explore this I am praying for Truth as I try to understand the differences between these spirits. I do believe that when the scriptures state there is One Spirit, it is referring to God’s Spirit, which is the basis for all others. But some scriptures do seem to be speaking of the Holy Spirit and God’s Spirit as separate things.
Romans 8

5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

There are instances where the Holy Spirit is mentioned and then the Spirit is mentioned and it seems to making reference back to the Holy Spirit. Then in vs. 9 it says when you are controlled by the Spirit…seeming to make reference back to the Holy Spirit, then you have the Spirit of God living in you…obviously not the Holy Spirit. There are many other times when the Spirit seems to be making reference back to God’s Spirit in the context in which it is used. This requires more study at least for me.

In your opinion, since you don’t believe in the Trinity, who are Jesus and the Holy Spirit then? Are you saying Jesus and the Father are two different gods? Is the Holy Spirit not God the Father and Jesus’s Spirit?

1 Timothy 2
5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 10
12 But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 13 There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet.

Hebrews 9
14 Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.
24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.

Hebrews 5
4 And no one can become a high priest simply because he wants such an honor. He must be called by God for this work, just as Aaron was. 5 That is why Christ did not honor himself by assuming he could become High Priest. No, he was chosen by God, who said to him,
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.â€
6 And in another passage God said to him,
“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.â€
7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 3
6 But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God’s entire house. And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.

Hebrews 2
10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.
11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.

Hebrews 1
2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven.

Rev 2
28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!

John 14
28 Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am

.

God: Father, Leader of Heaven’s Armies, Creator of all, All Authority
Jesus: Son of God, Mediator, High Priest, our Brother, Serves God.
Holy Spirit: Advocate, Counselor, Teacher, Testifies for God and Son

 

[glorydaz]

I certainly do....and I also know to what He is referring. The judges...they aren't gods, either. :biglaugh

I think I answered you as well in my previous post. Be careful that your dislike in me, do not cause you to stumble and miss something that God wants you to see. You are misunderstanding me in most of my posts and you have displayed your feelings about me in many post. I really do not mind for myself, but I care about you.

Whoa up there. Before I even read what you've written, I will set you straight right here. I do not dislike you in the least. Every single time I see your face I want to smile. You remind me of one of my very best friends...in many ways. I've been blessed many times by what you've said and I always hurry to read your posts. Right now, I have to run into town....but when I return, I will give your post all consideration.

My goodness....I'm still shaking my head that you think I don't like you. You nut. :biglaugh

 

[glorydaz]

Cornelius,

In regards to this...

I am not saying that we are human gods You have to be clear on that before trying to understand what I am saying Next you have to meditate on some Biblical truths. What I am talking about is simply what the Bible is saying. The reason we cannot "see" it, is that our "leaders" are not really teaching us that well.

For instance: We think ourselves humble if we say : I cannot ever have a part of me that is God. I am only His humble servant that worships Him for ever and ever.

We do and will worship Him forever. We will not replace Him, nor will we ever BE Him. But the Bible says that we will be exactly LIKE Him. Now, please understand that this is GRACE. This is because HE is good and loving and selfless. This has absolutely nothing to do with us trying and being something that we have not been given.

People cannot understand this , because they have God in a box. Most cannot even figure out how Jesus can be the Son and the Father is the father and they can be ONE. They do not read their Bibles, they listen to second hand information. If I then say to them, Jesus prayed :Father let them be one as We are one ! LOL then they are in super-confusion.

For some reason, you assume other people are taught by the religious leaders and you're taught by the Holy Spirit. That's presumptuous and flat-out wrong. Do you think you're the only one who meditates on the Word of God? I don't have God in a box. So, instead of assuming you have some higher understanding of God, perhaps you should stick to what the Word tells us. Christ lives in the believer. We are His body....His temple. We are not...nor will we ever be God or gods. To have the mind of Christ is to know God's will and walk in that. It is not demeaning to put on servanthood and to have the heart to serve the brethern....that is the higher calling and that is where grace is required. Man will never, in the natural, choose to serve. He will choose instead to "be like God."

 

[glorydaz]

I know that what I am saying almost all the time is in direct opposition to what you believe.That in itself must make us think. How is it possible that two Christians can believe in the same gospel and yet believe in two separate ways? When a conflict arises, we normally run to our doctrines and reaffirm through the opinions of other like-minded people, that we respect. And yet that in itself is wrong in the eyes of God. He wants us to continually be on our knees before Him asking for HIS truth.

The church is so content to just believe what they have been taught over the ages. Its sad, because there is really a treasure to be found. A pearl of great price and it is indeed hidden. Wisdom is hidden. The Bible teaches us that. Its not in the open, like we like to believe; Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

I am really trying to share some of the things that I have been shown over the 30 years of being a Christian. Much of it came through great trials and tears. I had to ask , knock and knock again.In faith we wait patiently and then the Lord, in His grace, can open our understanding. We all have different levels of what we know and understand.

So if I have offended you, please forgive me and let us seek the truth together, without malice.

your brother in Christ
Cornelius

I'm not offended in the least...I've been walking this path, myself, for 40 years, and I've heard all kinds of things. I don't just sit in the pews listening to man's wisdom...the Holy Spirit is faithful to lead each member of the body of Christ into all understanding. If we have differences of opinion, it's because some will lean on their own understanding believing they have some new revelation. God's wisdom is not just available to the few, but to the many members of the same body...be they brand new in the Lord or be they old hands. There is one Spirit. Being members of the same body, I pray there is never any malice between us since we're not in competition with one another ... we serve the same Lord.

One of the benefits of a body ministry is we can each affirm what the Spirit is doing in our lives and share what He's been showing us from the Word. I've been in New Testament assemblies since I first got saved. We've never had a pastor, but we've always been blessed with elders and other brothers in the Lord who get up and minister from the Word. There have been many times when while one or two have been sharing...it may seem a little disjointed, but then another brother will step forward and preach a word that ties everything together in such a beautiful way there can be no doubt but it's the Spirit doing the work. That's why we need a body of believers....we may not seem to agree on every detail, but the whole truth can be found each time we share something the Spirit has given. We just don't want to assume others have been listening to religious leaders just because we all can't articulate fully what the Spirit is teaching us. No one person can ever do that successfully. We always end up filling in the gaps with parts of ourselves. I hope you hear what I'm trying to say...we'd do well to remember we're on the same team. May His name be praised.

 

[Cornelius]

We differ in what we believe I come from the same place in my belief as you are at now. I see myself in what you say, but myself up to 2006 May, when I had a change of insight. I will not say "by the Holy Spirit" because that claim means nothing in todays religious system. I had one, you had one, the Catholic Church had one, the Pentecostals had one. So I am just going to say, that after a lot of prayer, that basically started because I became disillusioned with what people call "church" , I came to a point where I started seeing things differently. I started believing the Word.....as written. I stopped adding my opinions,I stopped adding Baptist doctrine (I use to be one) I stopped adding Charismatic doctrine, I stopped adding whatever I thought I "knew" and asked God to cleanse me of all false doctrines that came about , during my long Christian "walk" . I grew up in a Christian home, VERY dogmatic church. No Holy Spirit teaching, no gifts, no faith , just law and doctrine.

After that God met me alone one night , outside under a tree. I surrendered my life to Him there. No altar call, no church..just Him and I.Then Baptist church followed , I went to a Discipleship training school and eventually landed in leadership there. Then God "fired" me from ministry when I decided to become a missionary . I am glad I listened to Him then, because I would not have survived .I had no knowledge of the true gospel at that point. He told me what I must do instead, and that is what I am doing up to today and God has blessed everything relating to my work since that day.

Long story:I went through the 80s revival, saw many miracles. It died when men took over. I left to live in a small town, where God sent me to. Ten years later I try to join the formal church again. God keeps me out. I try again. God stops me. I start praying very seriously for insight. Six months later, God opens my understanding and the rest is history. I have since found out that I was not alone in what God showed me. I have joined in spirit and in some cases in fellowship with people that "see, like I see" things. They also believe on the Word as is without the "Yes but.." that people add. When Jesus said" Turn the other cheek, He means turn the other cheek (not Yes, but sometime.....) and when the Bible says " No women teachers.....we say " no women teachers" not "Yes but...."

We became persecuted by some church members because of this. We seem to make them uncomfortable. Some have left us and went back to the church as they know it. One man said: "I am going back, because I cannot allow God to really take over my life as you are saying. I want some of it for myself" So off he went. Some have left because they cannot give up the "Yes but...." they love the way they were taught. So be it. God is sovereign in ALL things.

Since then, I posted on forums, I teach at our group and speak to people about the real gospel of power. That Jesus in fact already did everything at the cross and we can move into it by faith.

Well, that is not the whole story, but part of it......

 

[glorydaz]

There again, brother, you say you've gone on beyond the rest of us.
I've "gone beyond" a time or two myself. One time I got so far beyond...so spiritual that I was hammering myself with guilt over the slightest moment of irritation or anger. I held myself to a higher standard than others around me. If you think other believers haven't experienced what you're experiencing now, you're wrong. The true Christian walk is not a slide into the comfort zone...it's hilltops and valleys. When I hear you say you used to be like me, I see pride with a capital P. You think other believers haven't sat under a tree and called out to the Lord? You think we haven't been led to the hilltop or that we haven't trudged down the other side to find another valley? Sorry, brother, you're no different than others in the body of Christ. You're not content to sit in a pew and be spoon-fed...praise the Lord, but you're not being shown pearls of greater price than others have been shown. You're just walking instead of sitting.

 

[Cornelius]

There again, brother, you say you've gone on beyond the rest of us.
I've "gone beyond" a time or two myself. One time I got so far beyond...so spiritual that I was hammering myself with guilt over the slightest moment of irritation or anger. I held myself to a higher standard than others around me. If you think other believers haven't experienced what you're experiencing now, you're wrong. The true Christian walk is not a slide into the comfort zone...it's hilltops and valleys. When I hear you say you used to be like me, I see pride with a capital P. You think other believers haven't sat under a tree and called out to the Lord? You think we haven't been led to the hilltop or that we haven't trudged down the other side to find another valley? Sorry, brother, you're no different than others in the body of Christ. You're not content to sit in a pew and be spoon-fed...praise the Lord, but you're not being shown pearls of greater price than others have been shown. You're just walking instead of sitting.

Brother I use to BELIEVE what you believe. Now I do not anymore. Sorry, that is just a fact.I did not say that now I am more clever than you, but face it, we believe two very different things. We do indeed believe two different gospels.

Another fact is that indeed in some things I know more than others. In some areas others certainly know more that I do. I do not see that as intimidating when others know more than I do.. I am sure that you can teach me something.On this forum there are plenty people that are more mature than I am. They show a strength of faith that I pray that I will have one day.

We have new believers that know very little at this moment and still need to be taught. Some are indeed not ready, even on this forum. Paul told the Corinthians 1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able;
1Co 3:3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?
1Co 3:4 For when one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not men?
I am no Paul, but the situation has not changed. Some are on milk and not ready for meat.

If you are one that are on meat, then good for you. I am not going to be saying that all believers are on the same level just because that is pleasant to hear. They are not. If my writing on this forum is immature and not backed by Scripture, then you are welcome to lift out what I say and ask me to back it up with Scripture. If indeed I am not able to, then I am teaching an opinion of man. But if not, and it still irritates you, then do not read it. Just skip it , there are plenty other posters. I am really not targeting you alone in my posts. On another forum I had this woman who thought that I wrote about her all the time. It drove me nuts LOL.

 

[glorydaz]

Brother I use to BELIEVE what you believe. Now I do not anymore. Sorry, that is just a fact.I did not say that now I am more clever than you, but face it, we believe two very different things. We do indeed believe two different gospels.

Two different gospels? That's a pretty heavy statement.

Perhaps you'd care to tell me how our Gospels differ.
I believe in the Gospel as written in the Word...are you preaching another one?

 

[Cornelius]

Brother I use to BELIEVE what you believe. Now I do not anymore. Sorry, that is just a fact.I did not say that now I am more clever than you, but face it, we believe two very different things. We do indeed believe two different gospels.

Two different gospels? That's a pretty heavy statement.

Perhaps you'd care to tell me how our Gospels differ.
I believe in the Gospel as written in the Word...are you preaching another one?

Yes its heavy , but I am not going to take this any further brother. We both know that we differ. If we do not agree, then we both have separate views. If separate views, then separate gospels. Surely that is logical.

blessings
C

 

[glorydaz]

Brother I use to BELIEVE what you believe. Now I do not anymore. Sorry, that is just a fact.I did not say that now I am more clever than you, but face it, we believe two very different things. We do indeed believe two different gospels.

Two different gospels? That's a pretty heavy statement.

Perhaps you'd care to tell me how our Gospels differ.
I believe in the Gospel as written in the Word...are you preaching another one?

Yes its heavy , but I am not going to take this any further brother. We both know that we differ. If we do not agree, then we both have separate views. If separate views, then separate gospels. Surely that is logical.

blessings
C

I would hope that logic doesn't separate the body of Chirst.
Not agreeing on non-essentials does not make two different Gospels. If it did we would have two or more bodies of Christ and that can be nothing but error, for Christ has but one body.

 

[Rick W]

Most likely a difference in interpretation.

If nobody has anything else to add to the topic then perhaps this thread has run it's course?

 

[Dude named Louis]

Most likely a difference in interpretation.

If nobody has anything else to add to the topic then perhaps this thread has run it's course?

I know I'm new around here but I'd vote "Aye", it's run its course.

 

[D4Christ]

I hope this thread has not run its course. Personal differences aside, I still am not sure why some trinity beleivers are so eager to base their entire trinity philosophy on a few verses..some albeit good....but mostly abstract roundabout scriptures to prove the trinity.

I know many do not agree, but I have provided some solid scriptures that show Christ has a relationship with the Father as in....you guessed it...a father to a son. Christ explicity states in scripture he is not greater than his Father and continues to show this respect even after he is resurrected. So if trinity still means, that Christ is coequal to his Father, I guess the bigger question becomes why are so many willing to ignore what He said about himself just to adopt a theory that was created after the bible was????

 

[glorydaz]

I hope this thread has not run its course. Personal differences aside, I still am not sure why some trinity beleivers are so eager to base their entire trinity philosophy on a few verses..some albeit good....but mostly abstract roundabout scriptures to prove the trinity.

I know many do not agree, but I have provided some solid scriptures that show Christ has a relationship with the Father as in....you guessed it...a father to a son. Christ explicity states in scripture he is not greater than his Father and continues to show this respect even after he is resurrected. So if trinity still means, that Christ is coequal to his Father, I guess the bigger question becomes why are so many willing to ignore what He said about himself just to adopt a theory that was created after the bible was????

Jesus was speaking as a man when He said all those things you talk about.
He was only a man for thirty some odd years, and while He was here He willingly took on human characteristics. He spoke as a man...not in His divine capacity. He shows His respect to the Father because he was a man, and man should respect God.

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[D4Christ]

Jesus was speaking as a man when He said all those things you talk about.
He was only a man for thirty some odd years, and while He was here He willingly took on human characteristics. He spoke as a man...not in His divine capacity. He shows His respect to the Father because he was a man, and man should respect God.

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So what was he speaking as in these verses...a disembodied voice?

Rev 2

28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!

Rev 3

2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God.

12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.

20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

These messages came to John well after the resurrection of Christ. And yet, He still refers to God as ‘my Father’ and ‘my God.’ Christ is consistent and has not changed how He sees himself in relation to His Father. Your ‘he only said those things because he was in human form’ theory does not hold water to these verses, which show Christ using the same language even as the resurrected Savior who sits at the right hand of His Father.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus was speaking as a man when He said all those things you talk about.
He was only a man for thirty some odd years, and while He was here He willingly took on human characteristics. He spoke as a man...not in His divine capacity. He shows His respect to the Father because he was a man, and man should respect God.

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So what was he speaking as in these verses...a disembodied voice?

Rev 2

28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!

Rev 3
[quote:60svubge]2 Wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is almost dead. I find that your actions do not meet the requirements of my God.

12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.

20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

These messages came to John well after the resurrection of Christ. And yet, He still refers to God as ‘my Father’ and ‘my God.’ Christ is consistent and has not changed how He sees himself in relation to His Father. Your ‘he only said those things because he was in human form’ theory does not hold water to these verses, which show Christ using the same language even as the resurrected Savior who sits at the right hand of His Father.[/quote:60svubge]

In the first place...it isn't my "theory".
It's simply a matter of believing what the Word has made clear to me.
You' wanted to discuss it...so I am. If you prefer to make jabs, I'll bow out.

Jesus is referring to his work on the cross.
He is still referred to as the Lamb...does that mean He still hangs on the cross?
You're quoting a book that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ...it includes His works from the beginning to the end...the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Lamb and the Almighty God. His work goes from creation to His second coming.

Here's the risen Lord John saw when he was called to record his visions.
Jesus has returned to glory as God, but He still speaks of His work as the Lamb of God.

His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

 

[D4Christ]

In the first place...it isn't my "theory".
It's simply a matter of believing what the Word has made clear to me.
You' wanted to discuss it...so I am. If you prefer to make jabs, I'll bow out.

Jabs…because I said ‘your theory’…ummm…not really sure how to respond to that one, except to say that no hostility was intended. My point is for anyone out there who can explain the trinity to me:

The Son has existed with His Father from the beginning. We know he was sent to earth in the form of flesh, and we know he died and was resurrected, which was well documented because he appeared to many before ascending back to His Father.

While many scholars disagree on which “John†wrote Revelation, it is agreed that the book was written well after Christ died and resurrected. Therefore, if the resurrected Christ is giving John his visions then we have to conclude that even in his resurrected state He continues to show deference to His Father.

Jesus is referring to his work on the cross.
He is still referred to as the Lamb...does that mean He still hangs on the cross?
You're quoting a book that is the Revelation of Jesus Christ...it includes His works from the beginning to the end...the Alpha and the Omega. He is the Lamb and the Almighty God. His work goes from creation to His second coming.

Christ being referred to as the Lamb is an accurate description of what His role was for God’s children….to serve as our High Priest…the final ultimate sacrifice…his whole reason from coming to earth in flesh in the 1st place. Scriptures state that he ascended to heaven to appear before God on our behalf…demonstrating that as long as we are down here and apart from our Savior, his role to intercede for us will continue until we are all present and together with Him.

It is should also be noted that Revelation is not a story of the world’s beginning and Christ’s life on earth. Its main function is to address the state of the churches and things to come in the end of days. Christ will operate in the name of His Father until he humbles all enemies beneath his feet. So, it is not strange that among other things he is referred to with names that belong to the Father. Christ also tells us in Revelation though he will get a new name.

Here's the risen Lord John saw when he was called to record his visions.
Jesus has returned to glory as God, but He still speaks of His work as the Lamb of God.

Is He supposed to be speaking of some new work? Most scriptures I have come across speak of Christ as our High Priest and Lord, who takes care of the children God gave Him. One scripture says He is in charge of God’s house….and God’s house are His children…ie us. Christ is even described in New Jerusalem as the Lamb. Try as I might, I have not come across any scriptures that state Christ has a different role or task after he re-entered heaven, aside from the ones I’ve probably mentioned in past posts. So I am not sure how, what He said and continued to say after His resurrection would change once in Heaven.

Anyway….it’s been an interesting study for me over this past week as the Holy Spirit has revealed scriptures I had never noticed before. I am thankful for those Trinitarians who responded as it forced me to dig deeper into the scriptures.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[glorydaz]

Personally, I think using the term "persons" is what has messed up many people from the get-go.

There is only One God.....He manifests Himself in many ways.
Course, when I say that I usually get jumped on from both sides.
But I'm feeling frisky tonight, so I'll just say it, anyway. :biglaugh

He's the Father because He came in the flesh and we call that coming the Son.
It's easier than saying God and human/God and spirit/God.
He named his jobs and we think that makes three different "people".

We also have the Arm of God, the right hand of God, the Word of God....and on.

I see one God...so, naturally, I see Jesus as God and equal with God because He is God.