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[_ Old Earth _] The face of change

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reznwerks

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Time changes modern human's face
By Rebecca Morelle
BBC News science reporter



Our ancestors had more prominent features but lower foreheads
Researchers have found that the shape of the human skull has changed significantly over the past 650 years. "

I guess God wasn't satisfied with the original.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4643312.stm
 
No person denies that minor changes take place in living things. At least nobody I know.
 
the point is, God is perfect, Why would he make something flawed?
 
peace4all said:
the point is, God is perfect, Why would he make something flawed?

The Biblical view is that God created a perfect world and man wrecked it by disobeying His command.

The effects of sin are everywhere. The climate has drastically altered because of the flood during the days of Noah.

Every living thing has had to adapt to survive.

Humans are no different.
 
Can I ask a question? Do any of you believe a single man (and his family maybe, im rusty on the old bible stories since i renounced my faith at the age of about 10 when I managed to be strong enough to stop taking in everything my parents where trying to make me believe) managed to make a wooden boat large enough to take every species on the planet?

Seeming as evolution is not compatible in many peoples minds, it would mean that every species in existance today would have existed back then and so every species that lives on this earth today would have to be fitted onto one gigantic wooden boat, built by a man while in the time it started to rain until flooding began to affect things in his life time alone. Does it really make sense that Noah managed to get TWO of EVERY species on the planet (which is in countless numbers...one cannot imagine fitting them all on the biggest aircraft carrier or oiltanker today which are built by hundreds of people with machine tools)? What did he do to stop the lions for example ripping anything smaller than themselves to pieces? What did he feed the predatory animals? It would have to be meat, and for a long time floating...live meat slaughtered at some point aboard otherwise it would have spoilt. Which means he took more than two of every animal of for example pigs...two to reproduce the species after the flood and more for feeding the lions!

And what was to stop the pigs mating onboard so that there was then MORE than "two" species on board (the numbers would swell to uncontrolable numbers..imagine every one of the world's species reproducing in a wooden boat...carnage). And what about animals that do not have long lifespans....like butterflies that live only a matter of days...not weeks/months/years/whatever that the flood lasted? And for that matter what did noah himself eat?! im guessing to save all the plant species he would have to have them aboard too. How do u fit every type tree in the world and keep it alive in a boat?

Then what did he do after the flood? Personally "drop" every plant and animal off at its location in the world? Many species have never encounted each other ever before or existed in certain parts of the world, so cannot be all dumped at the first shore Noah came to.

Then the issue of recreating the human race. Surely it was incest the way Noah recreated the human race? Just him and his family....Nice.

There cannot be enough water on this planet to fill it with water over the tops of the highest mountains (I remember from the story that the sign the flood was over was Noah seeing some doves around a mountain or something). You may say "what about the polar icecaps?" I say "water expands when frozen so would get smaller in area covered when melted".

Surely thinking about this, countless common sense issues arise..fitting two of every species into a boat without them ripping each other to pieces (and catching them all in the first place) let alone physically fitting them all in there! Think about it...
 
UKholylady said:
Can I ask a question? Do any of you believe a single man (and his family maybe, im rusty on the old bible stories since i renounced my faith at the age of about 10 when I managed to be strong enough to stop taking in everything my parents where trying to make me believe) managed to make a wooden boat large enough to take every species on the planet?

The story of Noah is a great story! There are answers out there to all of your questions. Anything we say will probably be rejected in your mind even before we say it, so I almost say to myself "why bother?"

But for your sake . . . . :)

There are today hundreds of different varietys of dogs. But back 4,500 years ago, Noah would only have had to take two dogs. The dogs you see today are descendants of those two dogs.

And Noah took more than just two of the clean animals. :)

How big was the boat? It was over 450 feet long. Noah had 4 people working on it for over 100 years probably.
 
Still not convincing. I would not trust that awful website either ive read it before..they have a branch devoted to converting everyone of other faiths to their own brand of fundemental christianity. Not very moral.

The "model" (justified by ropey science...which isnt going to be reliable being taken from a evangelist website which will be naturally biased to fit its own views for fear of disproving all it is made for) still doesnt take into account the vast amounts of food and freshwater (Which would be a MAJOR logistical problem...even as recently as in the 19th century for a compliment of 250 men....ever seen how much a horse drinks?) needed to feed "50000 species"?

The "flood" would have destroyed ever land plant on the planet...without their suitable habitats...none of the animals could have survived after the flood (after the miracle of keeping them all alive for 371 days on a boat). Is someone suggesting Noah took every plant on the planet as well on the ship which would have to be taken in large quantities to sustain the plant species through the journey...kept them alive on a boat...and terraformed the entire planet in his lifetime, somewhere multiplying the samples of plants on the boat enough to cover the entire globe? Did Noah have a giant greenhouse with a mix of every forest and field in?

"569 railroad stockcars" ...about the same size as a shipping container...small container ships can take 2900 and can you imagine even one of those containing 50000 live different species from elephants to giraffes! One railway container alone would barely be enough room to keep 2 goats healthily in (remember these individuals are going to have to be at full strength to repopulate the earth's goats!) let alone 2 tigers or gorrillas...have you ever been to a zoo and seen how large a tiger pen is? You could fit several "railroad stock cars" in a single pen.

And what about all the food they are going to eat, I take it you wernt impressed by my idea of having more than just two pigs to slaughter for the lions...so Noah managed to beat modern engineering and invent the heat exchange pump thousands of years ago and made a GIGANTIC freezer. 200 years ago even salting or pickling meat would not last out a year...a relatively modern expedition like that would require the crew to visit a port for supplies several times through the year.

Have you ever heard of the troubles mating pandas to keep them back from the brink of extinction? What happens if the two creatures didnt produce sucessful offspring...bye bye species. In squalid conditions with EVERY species in the world in one boat...disease would be very rife, picking off plenty of animals...and only one of the two remainders of the species has to die so that the species is then doomed.

The "dormant" theory is bad....ever seen a cat go dormant around a mouse or a dog? And the thing is it still has to go on to say how "supernatural powers" or something made things dormant. Wheres the proof in that. Every species crammed into the space of 569 containers? (It is beyond belief how anyone could reach that figure...an elephant would take up one without room to move) They would all be going beserk, the lions smelling the zebras across the hold...mmmmm.

And that "factual rendering" of Noah's ark against the house...not that much bigger than a US super carrier really. Not that I can imagine every species in the world along with the entire worlds rainforest on the flight deck and hanger of the USS Nimitz. How can anyone believe Noah alone or even just his family of 8 members built that in their life time?! And a ship built of wood that size...hard to imagine being structurally stable.

Highly comical is the little bit about dinosaurs going on the ark!!! It is proven FACT that dinosaurs predated humans by millions of years. Mammals which humans happen to be were an insignificant group 65 million years ago (when dinosaur fossils are dated through) and were no moe advanced than small rodents. So what if "job" saw a behemoth. Education wasn't exactly great thousands of years ago...a behemoth could have been anything...an elephant charging at him. How can you possibly jump to the conclusion that the behemoth was a dinosaur just because he saw something "scary". When dinosaurs existed they were everywhere...not living in some cave alone jumping out to scare job. They are far too large to live in an isolated population and remain alive. The whole dinosaur thing is just ridiculous....even a two year old can see the craziness in this.

That website is extremely arrogant...promoting blind faith as fact. "the ark had plenty of space". Yeah you lived thousands of years ago, you knew. The whole attempt to pass off the flood scenario and Noah's magic animal journey scientifically as if it is proven fact on christiananswers.net is laughable and absurd. I'd like to see NATO or the UN with the collobaration of every western government undertake the same task...impossibly. The fact they cant do it with the man power of millions and modern technology is proof in its self it is impossible. We can barely save one species from extinction....

*note* it is quoted it took Noah about 120 years to build. Very believable... Today humans live around 80 on average if that. And thats with modern medical care. Thousands of years ago disease would have picked off many in their early lives. If it wasnt for the plethora of pills and restful lives of the modern elderly they would not reach 70. Ever hear about the very sad stories of the elderly people who do not have adequate heating in their house and pass away as a result? Don't think there were any central heating systems back then. In recent past centuries the average life expectancy was around 45. Barely anyone lives to 120 and noone would be fit enough to captain such a voyage on completion of the vessel and muck in to look after 50000 species out of a compliment of 8 people...then recreate the human race as a virile 120 year old on the prowl ;)
 
UKholylady said:
Still not convincing. I would not trust that awful website either ive read it before..

What kind of proof would you accept? I don't mean this to sound abrasive, but do you really want to know the teachings of the subject? If you truly want to find God, you need to search with your heart, not your mind.

Knowing all of the details of creation and the fall/flood are secondary to having a personal relationship with Jesus.
 
Feasible and sensible proof would be acceptable. Not 50000 (all) of the species of the earth were rounded into a single both made out of wood by a man who lived to be 120 with no archaelogical proof other than a load of people thinking through cultural influences and a book that it did. I could just as easily say 2000 years ago the Romans made a spacecraft and took the population of Rome to the moon for a day out, which is obviously absurd...but in relative terms not that different, yet just because I say its true it doesnt mean it isnt, nobody has been able to prove it. And say this was a bedtime story that I were to tell my children that I make up on a whim to entertain my children, and then they remember the story as parents and tell it to their children and the chain continues until the version gets so twisted that its not the original story or what was obviously a tall tale made up by a childs parents has been twisted into a belief that it is true twisted by the generations. Its like chinese whispers.

Find the ark archaelogically, or challenge the US goverment to peform an experiment where the entire armed forces have to build a ship capable of containing every single species on earth, stay afloat with them for a year and colonise a barerock island with them to create a diverse paradise, using the US government's vast resources. Or more relelvant, just get 8 ordinary people, give them 80 years or so to create a wooden vessel to perform the same task and see if it works. If it does, then i'll believe there could possibly be an element of truth in the story.

Plus it would be great reality TV
 
It's not surprising that you're an atheist and you're from the UK. That's the melting pot of atheism:

Can I ask a question? Do any of you believe a single man (and his family maybe, im rusty on the old bible stories since i renounced my faith at the age of about 10 when I managed to be strong enough to stop taking in everything my parents where trying to make me believe) managed to make a wooden boat large enough to take every species on the planet?

The wooden boat was a few football fields long, wide and tall, with 3 stories. He got every living thing that creepeth on the earth of its kind, and all the fouls of the air. That is to say, he only got each species with its number of chromosomes.

Seeming as evolution is not compatible in many peoples minds, it would mean that every species in existance today would have existed back then and so every species that lives on this earth today would have to be fitted onto one gigantic wooden boat, built by a man while in the time it started to rain until flooding began to affect things in his life time alone. Does it really make sense that Noah managed to get TWO of EVERY species on the planet (which is in countless numbers...one cannot imagine fitting them all on the biggest aircraft carrier or oiltanker today which are built by hundreds of people with machine tools)?

All these species on earth have speciated from one single species (note: not evolved). That is to say, all the dogs on this earth speciated from one kind of dog, and Noah fitted only that pair of dogs.

What did he do to stop the lions for example ripping anything smaller than themselves to pieces?

lions speciated from the cat family, so he only had to bring a cat onboard.

What did he feed the predatory animals? It would have to be meat, and for a long time floating...live meat slaughtered at some point aboard otherwise it would have spoilt. Which means he took more than two of every animal of for example pigs...two to reproduce the species after the flood and more for feeding the lions!

Noah's ark only floated in the water for 150 days. This isn't enough time for anything to have offspring. You're confusing the current predatory animals with having been around since the time of creation. These animals speciated from a non-predatory animal. Lions speciated from cats.

And what was to stop the pigs mating onboard so that there was then MORE than "two" species on board (the numbers would swell to uncontrolable numbers..imagine every one of the world's species reproducing in a wooden boat...carnage).

150 days isn't enough for pigs or any other animal to have offspring. Plus: Genesis 6:21-"And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them."

And what about animals that do not have long lifespans....like butterflies that live only a matter of days...not weeks/months/years/whatever that the flood lasted?

Butterflies weren't taken on board. They speciated from insects that obviously survived the ride.

And for that matter what did noah himself eat?! im guessing to save all the plant species he would have to have them aboard too.

Gen.6:21

How do u fit every type tree in the world and keep it alive in a boat?

ever heard of a seed?

Then what did he do after the flood? Personally "drop" every plant and animal off at its location in the world? Many species have never encounted each other ever before or existed in certain parts of the world, so cannot be all dumped at the first shore Noah came to.

The plants were relocated by migrating peoples. As for the animals, they speciated.

Then the issue of recreating the human race. Surely it was incest the way Noah recreated the human race? Just him and his family....Nice.

Incest wasn't condemned by God until Moses came. This is why Adam and Eve's sons and daughters married each other, Noah's grandchildren, and Lot's daughters with Lot.

There cannot be enough water on this planet to fill it with water over the tops of the highest mountains (I remember from the story that the sign the flood was over was Noah seeing some doves around a mountain or something). You may say "what about the polar icecaps?" I say "water expands when frozen so would get smaller in area covered when melted".

water expands when frozen, but it starts to begin to expand after 4 degrees Celsius again. This is why water vapor has less density than water.

Surely thinking about this, countless common sense issues arise..fitting two of every species into a boat without them ripping each other to pieces (and catching them all in the first place) let alone physically fitting them all in there! Think about it...

Countless common sense issues arise with countless common sense answers with Scriptural support. Obviously all the species that were from creation aren't the same as now due to speciation, and Noah collected the one in his region because that's all the different types there were.
 
UKholylady said:
Feasible and sensible proof would be acceptable. Not 50000 (all) of the species of the earth were rounded into a single both made out of wood by a man who lived to be 120 with no archaelogical proof other than a load of people thinking through cultural influences and a book that it did. I could just as easily say 2000 years ago the Romans made a spacecraft and took the population of Rome to the moon for a day out, which is obviously absurd...but in relative terms not that different, yet just because I say its true it doesnt mean it isnt, nobody has been able to prove it. And say this was a bedtime story that I were to tell my children that I make up on a whim to entertain my children, and then they remember the story as parents and tell it to their children and the chain continues until the version gets so twisted that its not the original story or what was obviously a tall tale made up by a childs parents has been twisted into a belief that it is true twisted by the generations. Its like chinese whispers.

Find the ark archaelogically, or challenge the US goverment to peform an experiment where the entire armed forces have to build a ship capable of containing every single species on earth, stay afloat with them for a year and colonise a barerock island with them to create a diverse paradise, using the US government's vast resources. Or more relelvant, just get 8 ordinary people, give them 80 years or so to create a wooden vessel to perform the same task and see if it works. If it does, then i'll believe there could possibly be an element of truth in the story.

Plus it would be great reality TV

If the Romans had claimed they had built a spacecraft it would have been written in one of their books. As for evidence of a flood, take a look at this:

http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp

http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/fossils.asp
 
Then what did he do after the flood? Personally "drop" every plant and animal off at its location in the world? Many species have never encounted each other ever before or existed in certain parts of the world, so cannot be all dumped at the first shore Noah came to.

>>>The plants were relocated by migrating peoples. As for the animals, they speciated.


You mean to say that the amazon rainforests are there because people migrated to south america and put them there....along with every blade of grass in all the barely inhabited parts of the world?

How are you sure of those dimensions? because the bible says so? As a history student as well as science we are taught not to just trust one source. People have different accounts in history and as they are passed down the ages change.

Speciation IS a form of evolution, evolution is a change in the frequency of alleles in a population...maybe the United Kingdom is merely a third world backwater in the view of some now but that is the accepted academic definition of evolution by the academic authorities such as exam boards and educational publications (which are tied to the power structure of government), and when speciation occurs, the frequency of alleles in the breakaway part of the population changes... magically... evolution.

Admittely the seed idea is viable...however it would be a mammoth task for man to reterraform the entire earth, it is the stuff of science fiction. It wouldnt be possible today and we have the largest population ever present on this earth currently as well as the obvious technological advantages, I mean we cant even stop polluting the planet let alone make one....(hitchhikers guide to the galaxyesque)

The thought of all the animals coming out of the ark on completion of the journey is ecological chaos...say Noah docked in a small Japanese harbour, all these animals would be released into the same area, when many species have never ever encounted each other and evolved on opposite sides of the earth. The ecological balance would be tipped and some species would die out very easily from shock from their new habitat and also would be predated by other animals for which they do not usually encouter naturally and very vunerable. Only one of the pair has to be killed (also by disease, all animals, including humans- we are just very apt these days at curing ourselves, are prone to the devastating effects of hostile microorganisms) and that species is extinct. In the backwater that is the UK we have a problem with the native red squirrel being completely wiped out by the American Grey squirrel which was imported here by accident. And this is just an interspecies competition issue, they do not predate each other...this problem would be ten fold worse with two competing species one for which had a taste for the other suddenly introduced into the same area (anyway it has been proven that modern species evolved/speciated - both are fairly interchangable- from ancestors in different areas of the globe)

Insects would have been able to have had offspring during the 150 day period easily as well as some small mammals, birds and reptiles. The butterfly very likely predates human existance by millions of years, as do all insects in existance

I am pretty sure I have read somewhere that the small domestic like cat evolved from the great cats of Africa like the lion, travelling northwards into the desert where they adapted for the dry conditions such as being smaller to retain heat at night and decrease water consumption. I am pretty sure (although feel free to check, Im sure u'll find its true) that lions predate humans by a very long way so would not have speciated especially within historical literary memory (eg. the bible) as speciation/evolution takes a very very long time of countless chance mutations, with ones randomly to a organisms advantage allowing it to prevail over others and form a new species. Lions = very much older than human race. Infact your not going to find many animal species of any distinction from the creature you think they speciated from will have speciated at all during the existance of humans.... I think you will find we were all apes at the time :roll:

*Note* As for those links.....do you think you can find a reference to your ideas from a non-religious neutral site?
 
I always found it unusual that people would deny evolution in one breath then in the next claim hyper-evolution happened after the flood. Won't accept that creatures can evolve into new forms, but are willing to accept super creatures with more genetic material than needed splitting into the thousands of species in only a few thousand years.

Theres some simple maths that makes the Ark quite impossible. For example 50,000 animals drinking an average of 2 litres of water each per day, works out to 37 million litres over the 371 days. The water outside was full of dead bodies and rotting vegetation so the need to carry this amount would be apparent.
How about the meat requirements? Lets say 5% of the animals were carnivores, thats 2500 animals, even if we say only 1kg of meat each per day thats 927 meteric tons of meat. All this to be stored by a bronze age man with no modern refrigeration, air conditioning or transportation.

The illogical idea of everyone in the world being beyond saving (surely it is taught there is hope for every man to come to know God?), of the speed of regrowth, of the tiny population inbreeding without the genetic problems we know this causes, of the civilisations that existed during and after the flood without break, of the fossil record not matching a huge jumble as a flood would create, the building of a giant boat by farmers, of peoples ages being many hundreds of years... the list of reasons why the story does not make sense is quite long and unfortunately the usual answers and adding additional miracles that are not scriptually supported (all animals hibernating, special genetics, super growth etc).

A local flood fixes the vast majority of the problems, matches science, and does not require any additional miracles added. Whether it matches the exact wording of the bible is widely debated, but then whether the bible should be read word for word literally is heavily debated too.
 
peace4all said:
the point is, God is perfect, Why would he make something flawed?

I understand and accept Evolution for what it is, the best scientific explanation regarding the diversification of life on Earth, and a recent agnostic, but this is a horrible argument.

It is impossible to adequitely define "perfect". We feel powerful emotions, write beautiful poetry, wage horrible wars, maybe we are "perfect".
 
UKholylady said:
*Note* As for those links.....do you think you can find a reference to your ideas from a non-religious neutral site?

You will be hard pressed to find any person on either side of this debate who has a completely "neutral" viewpoint.

Both sides have a bias. One is biased on the side of God (Creation) and the other is biased on the side of man (evolution).
 
concept

Grengor said:
peace4all said:
the point is, God is perfect, Why would he make something flawed?

I understand and accept Evolution for what it is, the best scientific explanation regarding the diversification of life on Earth, and a recent agnostic, but this is a horrible argument.

It is impossible to adequitely define "perfect". We feel powerful emotions, write beautiful poetry, wage horrible wars, maybe we are "perfect".
If it is impossible to define "perfect" then why do Christians constantly use it to define the creator and all he has supposedly done? As to man writing beatiful poetry etc all(everything) that man puts a label on is HIS own interpretation and nothing more.
 
srry, but this thread was all answered in like the 4th post

The story of Noah is a great story!

Its just that, A story. It is like any other story, it is meant to have underlying meanings to describe hardships, problems etc. It is a huge metaphor. It is proven, that It could'nt possibly happen, for thousands of diffrent reasons (unless you use the implicit "God made it happen", which basically means that everyone refuses to accept science, and reasoning)
 
answers

Khristeeanos said:
[

The story of Noah is a great story! There are answers out there to all of your questions. Anything we say will probably be rejected in your mind even before we say it, so I almost say to myself "why bother?"

.
Perhaps you can offer some believable answers to ALL the questions posed at the following link? I can assure you no one will dismiss a believable answer especially where there is evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
 
Re: answers

reznwerks said:
Perhaps you can offer some believable answers to ALL the questions posed at the following link? I can assure you no one will dismiss a believable answer especially where there is evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

This line, in particular, is rather awesome:

A thousand kilometers' length of arctic coastal plain, according to experts in Leningrad, contains about 500,000 tons of tusks. Even assuming that the entire population was preserved, you seem to be saying that Russia had wall-to-wall mammoths before this "event."

I think that article pretty much buries the flood myth, so to speak.
 
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