[_ Old Earth _] The fallacy of evolution

[Solo]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

God created the heavens and the earth in 6 and all that is in them in 6 days. They didn't evolve... 8-)

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I trust the bible not my own understanding... :D

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created man to have dominion over every living creature on the earth. Man didn't evolve.

Only people who lean on their own understanding have a problem with that. ;-)

The bible couldn't be any plainer... :angel:

All of the Christians that I know and all of those that I have read recognize evolution is a lie, and only those that are deceived by the devil have sucked up to the false science as equal to the Word of God. What amazes me is their claim to being Christian, especially when they distort the Word of God to back up their temporary worldly understanding.

I do understand that not all that claim to be Christian are truly Christian. The Word says that many false teachers will claim Jesus as Christ. The Word is truth, and the Christians that are guided by the Holy Spirit know the truth, and there is unity among the brethren.

 

[Quid]

All of the Christians that I know and all of those that I have read recognize creationism is a lie, and only those that are deceived by the devil have sucked up to the false science as equal to the Word of God. What amazes me is their claim to being Christian, especially when they distort the Word of God to back up their temporary worldly understanding.

 

[Quid]

The key phrase in that is "in Righteousness". Doctorine in righteousness, reproof in righteousness, and correction in righteousness, and instruction in righteousness.

The misinterpetation of this phase, and its meaning is an egregious fault in the learnings of a man. The bible is not a guide for how the world was formed, the bible is not a guide for how physics work, the bible is a guide for righteousness, a guide to live well in the presense of God.

The Bible never was, is, or will be a reference to the workings of the word, only the workings of the life. If you, or any other man, wish to use the bible as a grounds to further useless discussions on what the bible does not cover, then you are no better than the pharasees admonished by Jesus. What does it matter if Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt? Nothing, it is a parable. Just like the creation story, a guide to live life.

Are we to ignore Proverbs 23? Which not only is the truth in the bible, but we are exhorted to follow by Timothy? That we are to use as our reference to doctorine, repro0f, correctness, and instruction in righteousness? Ill quote the relevent sections for you, with bolding.

23:23 Acquire truth and do not sell it –
wisdom, and discipline, and understanding.
23:24 The father of a righteous person will rejoice greatly;
whoever fathers a wise child will have joy in him.
23:25 May your father and your mother have joy;
may she who bore you rejoice.
23:26 Give me your heart, my son,
and let your eyes observe my ways;
23:27 for a prostitute is like a deep pit;
a harlot is like a narrow well.
23:28 Indeed, she lies in wait like a robber,
and increases the unfaithful among men.
23:29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has contentions? Who has complaints?
Who has wounds without cause? Who has dullness of the eyes?
23:30 Those who linger over wine,
those who go looking for mixed wine.
23:31 Do not look on the wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly.
23:32 Afterward it bites like a snake,
and stings like a viper.
23:33 Your eyes will see strange things,
and your mind will speak perverse things.
23:34 And you will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
and like one who lies down on the top of the rigging.
23:35 You will say, “They have struck me, but I am not harmed!
They beat me, but I did not know it!
When will I awake? I will look for another drink"

This is the divine ehortation of God, and God is commanding you to use your eyes, your eyes unclouded by those things that would subsume logic and understanding. You who have chosen to ignore Gods commandment to use your senses to observe the world in order to seek the truth of it, have not only commited a sin against man, but a sin against yourself, and a sin agaisnt God. You are clouding the important work that should be going on increasing our understanding of this world, you are hamping your own understanding of the scriptures and the world, and you are disobeying the commands of God, bringing shame upon your Father.

This is no light charge i level, but this is no light sin that has been commited. We should laud the men who observe Gods ways with their eyes, for they are making their Father proud.

If, for reference, you want to know what the creation story is all about, I suggest you look at our week, for the creation story is telling us that we should live like God. We should work for six days and then rest for one. And this will benefit us, and unspurisingly, it does.

Now go and make your father proud.

 

[bibleberean]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/ar ... batten.asp

Don Batten, agricultural science
First published in
In Six Days
Religion and origins testimony #25

Edited by John F. Ashton

"Dr. Batten is a research scientist for Answers in Genesis in Australia. He holds a B.Sc.Agr. with first-class honors from the University of Sydney and a Ph.D. in plant physiology from the University of Sydney. Dr. Batten worked for 18 years as a research scientist with the New South Wales Department of Agriculture, studying the floral biology, environmental adaptation, and breeding of sub-tropical tropical fruit tree species such as the lychee, custard apple, and mango."

The reason for Jesus’ death and resurrection rests upon the historicity of what happened back in Genesisâ€â€that the rebellion of Adam and Eve brought the curse of death and suffering upon the world. Each of us has sinned, so we all deserve God’s wrath (Rom. 5:12). Jesus took that curse of death upon himself on the cross so that we who trust God for salvation will be free from death for all eternity (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:21–22). If evolution were true, death and suffering were always here; they were not the result of sin. So what meaning has Jesus’ death?

When I was trying to believe in evolution, without thinking about it much, I tried to explain the curse on Adam as spiritual death. Why? Because, if evolution were true, death was already here when Adam sinned. But the curse was fundamentally physical death (“to dust you shall return†Gen. 3:19) that’s why Jesus died bodily on the cross, as we remember at the communion table (1 Cor. 11:23–26). And that’s why he rose bodily from the dead, conquering sin and death. So we who are in Christ look forward to a bodily resurrection (1 Cor. 15).

Futhermore, the OT contains the Law, which the New Testament calls the schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24). How can people respond to the Savior, Jesus Christ, unless they know they need to be saved? And how can they know they need to be saved unless they know that they have rebelled against their Creator in not keeping His standards of righteousness, that they are lost, that they deserve the condemnation of God, and will suffer His wrath at Judgment? The Law helps us to see that we are indeed lost without God’s provision of salvation in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

 

[Quid]

Do you realize that the last part you quoted is an exhortation to ignore views in opposite of Christs teachings, and says nothing, in any reasonable translation about science, or about any other piece of the bible?

The removal of context from the bible is one of the worst affronts to its interpetation.

 

[bibleberean]

How did God create the first woman?


Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Genesis 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh...

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.


So God took the first woman from the body of the first man and all living people came from Eve....

Either evolution is true or the bible is true.

I choose to believe the bible. Evolution is a lie. :-D

I reject the "profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:" 1 Timothy 6:20 ;-)

 

[Heidi]

Do you realize that the last part you quoted is an exhortation to ignore views in opposite of Christs teachings, and says nothing, in any reasonable translation about science, or about any other piece of the bible?

The removal of context from the bible is one of the worst affronts to its interpetation.

When science agrees with God, it is always right. When it disagrees with God, it is always wrong. End of story. :wink:

 

[Frost Giant]

That's fine, you can believe whatever you want. Just don't try to get valid scientific theories taken out of school simply because your religion disagrees with them.

 

[bibleberean]

Punkorama check your messages"pm's".

bibleberean

 

[cubedbee]

Do you realize that the last part you quoted is an exhortation to ignore views in opposite of Christs teachings, and says nothing, in any reasonable translation about science, or about any other piece of the bible?

The removal of context from the bible is one of the worst affronts to its interpetation.

When science agrees with God, it is always right. When it disagrees with God, it is always wrong. End of story. :wink:

Yes, and science always agrees with God, so those Christians who mis-interpret the Bible so that it disagree with science are always wrong. End of Story.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

I started off to read this whole thread, but I am powering out and need sleep soon.

I noticed some serious problems with some understanding of 'evolution' early in the thread. Some around here still feel that humans 'evolved' from apes...wrong, that isn't what evolution says at all. Some feel that because a cat has two eyes and a human has two eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!well, as far as I remember from studies(too many years ago) man is separated from it's closest family members because they can communicate symbolically and have opposing thumbs. That is a much finer defination than an eye and leg count.

The simple truth is that evolution is out there and evolution does exist, will exist and always has existed. That is not an arguable point. That dandilion plant in your back yard is different than it was a mere 50 years ago. It is now resistant to certain herbicides. That is what evolution is, a very gradual adaption to habitant and present environment. Changes that take place over thousands of years. Evolution still occurs today. Presently another island is being formed in the Hawaian chain exactly the same way the others got there. The argument that the island example is something other than evolution is hogwash. It doesn't fit with the ficticious defination creationists apply to the word but it IS evolution.

The world was created in 6 days.......I do not have a problem with that. The first 'day' or time God worked on this project, He put in place the evolutionary criteria which would, over time, create the heaven and earth of His intentions. What's so hard about this? The second day He worked on the project He put the evolutionary ...and so on, over billions of years.

People, light travels at 186 000 miles a second and stars are light years away...do the math. Homo erectus was one of our ancestors, a primate who was tall and a speedy runner. Go have a look at the skelatal remains of one of this ancient fellas and then come back on here and say there is no evolution.

Remember this ..homo erectus is no longer on planet earth, but man is, along with the ape. Think about it.

noble6

 

[Solo]

Hi Forum,

I started off to read this whole thread, but I am powering out and need sleep soon.

I noticed some serious problems with some understanding of 'evolution' early in the thread. Some around here still feel that humans 'evolved' from apes...wrong, that isn't what evolution says at all. Some feel that because a cat has two eyes and a human has two eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!well, as far as I remember from studies(too many years ago) man is separated from it's closest family members because they can communicate symbolically and have opposing thumbs. That is a much finer defination than an eye and leg count.

The simple truth is that evolution is out there and evolution does exist, will exist and always has existed. That is not an arguable point. That dandilion plant in your back yard is different than it was a mere 50 years ago. It is now resistant to certain herbicides. That is what evolution is, a very gradual adaption to habitant and present environment. Changes that take place over thousands of years. Evolution still occurs today. Presently another island is being formed in the Hawaian chain exactly the same way the others got there. The argument that the island example is something other than evolution is hogwash. It doesn't fit with the ficticious defination creationists apply to the word but it IS evolution.

The world was created in 6 days.......I do not have a problem with that. The first 'day' or time God worked on this project, He put in place the evolutionary criteria which would, over time, create the heaven and earth of His intentions. What's so hard about this? The second day He worked on the project He put the evolutionary ...and so on, over billions of years.

People, light travels at 186 000 miles a second and stars are light years away...do the math. Homo erectus was one of our ancestors, a primate who was tall and a speedy runner. Go have a look at the skelatal remains of one of this ancient fellas and then come back on here and say there is no evolution.

Remember this ..homo erectus is no longer on planet earth, but man is, along with the ape. Think about it.

noble6

Man was created on day one, and man is still here today. Man was better off on day one than he is today. Evolution is a lie and deception from devil himself, and a dandelion fifty years ago is still a dandylion today. Do not mix microevolution within a kind to macroevolution outside of creation, otherwise you will be found lacking when the truth of God is revealed in the fulness of time.

Remember, death was not present on earth until man disobeyed his creator. Anything other than this simple truth is a fabrication from man's imagination apart from the truth of God.

 

[noblej6]

HI solo,

You're wrong on a couple counts as I see it, I'll try to explain the other angle.

Evolution is a lie and deception from devil himself, and a dandelion fifty years ago is still a dandylion today. Do not mix microevolution within a kind to macroevolution outside of creation

There's one problem right there. If you want to fabricate definition for evolution and make it so science don't fit you can argue away all day, BUT what has been repeated monotonously on these threads is that evolution is a process over hundreds or thousands of years which means micro evolution(whatever that is) is justified.

I spray chemical on thousands of dandilions and wild mustard every crop year and I remember how these weeds drooped over 30 years ago and make no doubt about it weeds have acquired herbicide resistance. Whether you like it or not that is as much a part of evolution as a mutation or an adaption to habitat.

Here's the second problem as I read the book.

Remember, death was not present on earth until man disobeyed his creator.

The second death was not going to affect man until the sin, but physical death was always present.

noble6

 

[Loren Michael]

Hi Forum,

I started off to read this whole thread, but I am powering out and need sleep soon.

I noticed some serious problems with some understanding of 'evolution' early in the thread. Some around here still feel that humans 'evolved' from apes...wrong, that isn't what evolution says at all. Some feel that because a cat has two eyes and a human has two eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!well, as far as I remember from studies(too many years ago) man is separated from it's closest family members because they can communicate symbolically and have opposing thumbs. That is a much finer defination than an eye and leg count.

The simple truth is that evolution is out there and evolution does exist, will exist and always has existed. That is not an arguable point. That dandilion plant in your back yard is different than it was a mere 50 years ago. It is now resistant to certain herbicides. That is what evolution is, a very gradual adaption to habitant and present environment. Changes that take place over thousands of years. Evolution still occurs today. Presently another island is being formed in the Hawaian chain exactly the same way the others got there. The argument that the island example is something other than evolution is hogwash. It doesn't fit with the ficticious defination creationists apply to the word but it IS evolution.

The world was created in 6 days.......I do not have a problem with that. The first 'day' or time God worked on this project, He put in place the evolutionary criteria which would, over time, create the heaven and earth of His intentions. What's so hard about this? The second day He worked on the project He put the evolutionary ...and so on, over billions of years.

People, light travels at 186 000 miles a second and stars are light years away...do the math. Homo erectus was one of our ancestors, a primate who was tall and a speedy runner. Go have a look at the skelatal remains of one of this ancient fellas and then come back on here and say there is no evolution.

Remember this ..homo erectus is no longer on planet earth, but man is, along with the ape. Think about it.

noble6

Man was created on day one, and man is still here today. Man was better off on day one than he is today. Evolution is a lie and deception from devil himself, and a dandelion fifty years ago is still a dandylion today. Do not mix microevolution within a kind to macroevolution outside of creation, otherwise you will be found lacking when the truth of God is revealed in the fulness of time.

Remember, death was not present on earth until man disobeyed his creator. Anything other than this simple truth is a fabrication from man's imagination apart from the truth of God.

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.

minor point, but death had to be there prior to the fall. otherwise, the above would be a meaningless statement.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Michael,

minor point, but death had to be there prior to the fall. otherwise, the above would be a meaningless statement.

I thought that for a while too, but for many years now, I think it goes like this.

Adam didn't physically die on the day he ate the fruit. Next in Daniel 12:1-3 we see that many sleep in the dust. This is physical death. The second death is being raised to be condemned.

People no longer have to sleep when Jesus comes on the clouds (parousia.)1 cor 15:51. Jesus gave back what Adam lost for us by restoring the afterlife promised from the beginning. The heavenly spiritual existance after physical death. 2 Cor 5:1.

noble6

 

[Solo]

HI solo,

You're wrong on a couple counts as I see it, I'll try to explain the other angle.

Evolution is a lie and deception from devil himself, and a dandelion fifty years ago is still a dandylion today. Do not mix microevolution within a kind to macroevolution outside of creation

There's one problem right there. If you want to fabricate definition for evolution and make it so science don't fit you can argue away all day, BUT what has been repeated monotonously on these threads is that evolution is a process over hundreds or thousands of years which means micro evolution(whatever that is) is justified.

I spray chemical on thousands of dandilions and wild mustard every crop year and I remember how these weeds drooped over 30 years ago and make no doubt about it weeds have acquired herbicide resistance. Whether you like it or not that is as much a part of evolution as a mutation or an adaption to habitat.

Here's the second problem as I read the book.
[quote:afa75]
Remember, death was not present on earth until man disobeyed his creator.

The second death was not going to affect man until the sin, but physical death was always present.

noble6[/quote:afa75]

I am not wrong in my assessment of the truth as revealed in the Word of God. Evolution is a lie because it contradicts the Word of God. The earth is not over 10,000 years old therefore the timeframe necessary for evolution to be true is not historically accurate as indicated in the scriptures. You may have sprayed weeds over the years but you have never created another kind from your spraying, nor have you ever seen a plant that was a different kind than was created on day one. You may have developed hybrids, but only after each kind were they reproduced.

Death entered the earth through Adam's sin, not before. Spiritual death and Physical death. At the time that Adam sinned, his physical body began to die.

Of course your unbelief of God's Word is not the first on record, and I expect that millions more are on your same path. Hopefully you will come to understand the Word of God in a more fulfilling way so that His truth will be proclaimed instead of your opinions.

 

[Barbarian]

Here's an easy way to test the idea that the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old:

In the Pacific Ocean, there are atolls. These ring-shaped islands are based on sunken volcanoes. As the volcano sinks, the fringing coral reef continues to grow, and if the sinking is slow enough,the reef can stay in shallow water and continue to grow indefinitely (we have some failed reefs where the subsidence was too rapid)

As the ages pass, layer after layer of structured reef coral are added. At Enitiwok atoll, Navy engineers drilled cores, and went nearly a mile down before hitting volcanic rock.

Reef coral, in optimum conditions, grows a bit more than a quarter-inch a year. If the volcano sank at exactly the rate of growth, then that could tell you exactly how old the reef is. (If the volcano sunk more slowly, the reef would be more ancient)

Assume ideal conditions and rate of subsidence, to find the minimum time the reef has been growing at Enitiwok.

A: 240,000 years.

Remember, this isn't the age of the Earth. It's just the age of Enitiwok atoll.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Barbarian,

Yes, very good example. My curiosity in all of this is why is the age of the planet and life on it so threatning to bible readers. This evolution - creation discussion doesn't require an either/or approach.
Evolution exists, there is no way to deny that without looking a bit naive. If it is there and

noble6Jesus created everything, who created evolution?

What's the problem?

 

[noblej6]

Hi solo,

You may have sprayed weeds over the years but you have never created another kind from your spraying, nor have you ever seen a plant that was a different kind than was created on day one.

You see, this illustrates the mis-understanding of the whole thing right here.
No, I have never seen any plant that looks different now than when I was a kid. EVOLUTION TAKES PLACE OVER HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. However, those plants are genetically different. You may have heard of Canola, a plant whose seeds make cooking oil, has been genetically altered in labs to resist chemicals entirely. That doesn't change the appearance of a canola plant today, but 500 years from now as these plants aquire characteristics from this alteration, they may indeed be different.

Tell me where the new strains of bacterial infections come from in hospitals today. In Jesus day, where was the virus that causes bird flu. Theses things have evolved maybe in the last hundred years.

Where is the sabre tooth tiger of the past and why do we not see ancient skelatal remains of cougars as they exist today?

Why did that tall runner called homo erectus die off and disappear?

Most of all tell me why..............
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


...............doesn't mean exactly what evolution intends. The first cell developed from water and soil and over millions of years multi cell organisms developed from the origonal dust until man arrived at the point he is today.

Why is that verse stone cold literal and this verse is not.............

34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

You may have developed hybrids, but only after each kind were they reproduced.

Hybids are nowhere close to what we are talking about in evolution. A hybrid is a instant alteration of characteristic.....one more time we can say ...evolution takes place over hundreds or thousands of years, generally speaking.

Death entered the earth through Adam's sin, not before. Spiritual death and Physical death. At the time that Adam sinned, his physical body began to die.

No, it didn't 'started to die' it would have DIED because God said it would.

Genesis 2
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Adam ate it, Adam lived on physically. What does that leave?

Of course your unbelief of God's Word is not the first on record, and I expect that millions more are on your same path.

I do not dis-believe God's word, I only see God's word as saying something different than you do. I would gladly discuss with you at great length , which of us is right, if you wish.

noble6

 

[Solo]

Hi solo,

You may have sprayed weeds over the years but you have never created another kind from your spraying, nor have you ever seen a plant that was a different kind than was created on day one.

You see, this illustrates the mis-understanding of the whole thing right here.
No, I have never seen any plant that looks different now than when I was a kid. EVOLUTION TAKES PLACE OVER HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. However, those plants are genetically different. You may have heard of Canola, a plant whose seeds make cooking oil, has been genetically altered in labs to resist chemicals entirely. That doesn't change the appearance of a canola plant today, but 500 years from now as these plants aquire characteristics from this alteration, they may indeed be different.

Tell me where the new strains of bacterial infections come from in hospitals today. In Jesus day, where was the virus that causes bird flu. Theses things have evolved maybe in the last hundred years.

Where is the sabre tooth tiger of the past and why do we not see ancient skelatal remains of cougars as they exist today?

Why did that tall runner called homo erectus die off and disappear?

Most of all tell me why..............
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


...............doesn't mean exactly what evolution intends. The first cell developed from water and soil and over millions of years multi cell organisms developed from the origonal dust until man arrived at the point he is today.

Why is that verse stone cold literal and this verse is not.............

34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

[quote:25b69]You may have developed hybrids, but only after each kind were they reproduced.

Hybids are nowhere close to what we are talking about in evolution. A hybrid is a instant alteration of characteristic.....one more time we can say ...evolution takes place over hundreds or thousands of years, generally speaking.

Death entered the earth through Adam's sin, not before. Spiritual death and Physical death. At the time that Adam sinned, his physical body began to die.

No, it didn't 'started to die' it would have DIED because God said it would.

Genesis 2
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Adam ate it, Adam lived on physically. What does that leave?

Of course your unbelief of God's Word is not the first on record, and I expect that millions more are on your same path.

I do not dis-believe God's word, I only see God's word as saying something different than you do. I would gladly discuss with you at great length , which of us is right, if you wish.

noble6[/quote:25b69]
God created man from the dust of the earth in one day, and he created woman from man's rib in one day. It is obvious that you believe God's word as long as you can twist into meaning that which is a worldly interpretation. God created each plant, animal, and man after its own kind with each creation having it's own seed for reproduction after each kind. God did this in six literal morning and evenings (24 hour days).

You can be right only if you are in agreement with God's Word. God's Word explicitly defines creation, and one can only interpret the creation into evolution by twisting and ignoring God's Word.

Man's observations and hypothesis in the scientific community can only be true if they align with the Word of God. Science is a great tool of observing God's creation as long as God is acknowledged during the process, otherwise the enemy will warp the observations as he has done in the field of observing the origins of God's creatures.