[_ Old Earth _] The fallacy of evolution

[dad]

..
Of course you can for the exact reasons I stated. If the spiritual world doesn't effect our physical world then it is true you cannot test for it, but the claims are always that there is interaction between our world and other planes of existance. This interaction can be tested, can be proven or disproven as the case maybe.

Oh really?! So you think you are a ghostbuster? You wouldn't see an angel if it didn't want you to see it! If you did see one, you likely wouldn't recognize it! You couldn't test your way out of a paper bag! (When it comes to the spiritual)


[quote:400bb]It is not me who has clouded the issue. If it was as clearcut as you believe there would be no debate between Christians, no disagreement between churches and simply one Christian church. It obviously is not clear.

The issue of creation according to the bible, and it's timetable is not the central issue in being a christian. If religious people were perfect and harmonious, they would not have killed Jesus. I have a simple faith in the bible, and God, not a simple faith in religions. Where they miss the simple creation story, or do or don't believe it is not my concern. But it is clearcut.

And we could wear crash helmets and knee pads while walking down the street. Its not the threat or likelyhood of violence or injury that pull true fans to any sport.

Be honest, who would watch a high wire act that was only 6 inches off the ground? Who would go to races, where the cars were regulated to a max of 30 kph? Who would go to touch football, that started and ended with a group hug? Who would go to a wrestling match, that involved laying on the mat, and just armwrestling, and giving the cup to the loser for good measure, instead of the loser? Who would go to a hockey game with no body contact, no checking, and a hollow plastic puck that was nice and soft? And where the proceeds were donated to missionaries?

Any fighting in sports is quickly stopped and people sin binned.

Oh, I see, i missed the rule changes there for martial arts contests, boxing, wrestling, ans kickboxing, etc!

There is still no link between the evil of a bloody gladitorial fight, and a good clean skillful game of footy. Times have definately changed.

[/quote:400bb]
More people die in present sports I would guess, than in the Greek or Roman ones. I don't think abortion was considered all that sporting then either? You could say the ancient Egyptians were bad for throwing maybe hundreds of babies to crocodiles. I say, the clean, modern abortion clinics that have killed millions of babies are far more evil.
You can say ancient warfare was barbaric, and cruel. I say dropping atom bombs killing millions are much worse. Yes, times have changed.

 

[dad]

..
Of course you can for the exact reasons I stated. If the spiritual world doesn't effect our physical world then it is true you cannot test for it, but the claims are always that there is interaction between our world and other planes of existance. This interaction can be tested, can be proven or disproven as the case maybe.

Oh really?! So you think you are a ghostbuster? You wouldn't see an angel if it didn't want you to see it! If you did see one, you likely wouldn't recognize it! You couldn't test your way out of a paper bag! (When it comes to the spiritual)

It is not me who has clouded the issue. If it was as clearcut as you believe there would be no debate between Christians, no disagreement between churches and simply one Christian church. It obviously is not clear.

The issue of creation according to the bible, and it's timetable is not the central issue in being a christian. If religious people were perfect and harmonious, they would not have killed Jesus. I have a simple faith in the bible, and God, not a simple faith in religions. Where they miss the simple creation story, or do or don't believe it is not my concern. But it is clearcut.

And we could wear crash helmets and knee pads while walking down the street. Its not the threat or likelyhood of violence or injury that pull true fans to any sport.

Be honest, who would watch a high wire act that was only 6 inches off the ground? Who would go to races, where the cars were regulated to a max of 30 kph? Who would go to touch football, that started and ended with a group hug? Who would go to a wrestling match, that involved laying on the mat, and just armwrestling, and giving the cup to the loser for good measure, instead of the loser? Who would go to a hockey game with no body contact, no checking, and a hollow plastic puck that was nice and soft? And where the proceeds were donated to missionaries?

Any fighting in sports is quickly stopped and people sin binned.

Oh, I see, i missed the rule changes there for martial arts contests, boxing, wrestling, ans kickboxing, etc!

There is still no link between the evil of a bloody gladitorial fight, and a good clean skillful game of footy. Times have definately changed.

More people die in present sports I would guess, than in the Greek or Roman ones. I don't think abortion was considered all that sporting then either? You could say the ancient Egyptians were bad for throwing maybe hundreds of babies to crocodiles. I say, the clean, modern abortion clinics that have killed millions of babies are far more evil.
You can say ancient warfare was barbaric, and cruel. I say dropping atom bombs killing millions are much worse. Yes, times have changed.

 

[Wertbag]

Oh really?! So you think you are a ghostbuster? You wouldn't see an angel if it didn't want you to see it! If you did see one, you likely wouldn't recognize it! You couldn't test your way out of a paper bag! (When it comes to the spiritual)

Amazing, completely ignore what I say and turn it into a personal attack. Do try and at least talk about the point I've raised rather than going off on tangents. As I said you cannot test the spiritual, you can only test any physical interaction claimed by the spiritual world. For example if a medium says he can talk to dead people and thereby find out facts about our lives, that is an easily testable claim. If a tarot reader says through her connection with the spirit world she can accurately tell the future, that is a testifiable claim. It is these claims that we would look for, and not simply trying to point out angels or ghosts which I've already said is not possible.

Be honest, who would watch a high wire act that was only 6 inches off the ground? Who would go to races, where the cars were regulated to a max of 30 kph? Who would go to touch football, that started and ended with a group hug? Who would go to a wrestling match, that involved laying on the mat, and just armwrestling, and giving the cup to the loser for good measure, instead of the loser?

Of course not, the things you are stating are not improving the game, simply taking away the skill. You go to watch a high wire act to see the great balance and skill of the performer, you don't go expecting to see a fall and carnage. You go to car races to see drivers lightning reflexes at high speeds and the skill displayed, not to see crashes.
If your theory that it is only violence that fills stands was true we would see no crowds at golf, tennis, netball, snooker, or cricket, obviously this is not the case.

Any fighting in sports is quickly stopped and people sin binned.

Oh, I see, i missed the rule changes there for martial arts contests, boxing, wrestling, ans kickboxing, etc!

Obviously I was referring to almost every team sport. Violence in these games is not tolerated, is not rewarded and quickly punished.

More people die in present sports I would guess, than in the Greek or Roman ones. You could say the ancient Egyptians were bad for throwing maybe hundreds of babies to crocodiles. I say, the clean, modern abortion clinics that have killed millions of babies are far more evil.
You can say ancient warfare was barbaric, and cruel. I say dropping atom bombs killing millions are much worse. Yes, times have changed.

Nice to see guess work comes into it...
The main point here is the whole intent is different. Gladiators went to kill or be killed, it was all about blood and death, and society not only allowed it but fully supported it. No modern sport has that intent, and society now teaches that such bloody ideas are evil. Good and evil are defined by society.
You believe abortion clinics are evil, but society teaches they are not. I'm not talking about my personal views on that matter as thats not the point, again this is showing that it is society that defines what is good and what is evil, not any inbuilt good'ometer.
Another example would be stoning people as a form of execution. In the middle east there are still countries who use this practice. They are taught that it is right and just to execute in this fashion, and society supports this. Our western society considers it horrific and evil, and due to the different way we are taught, we hold the same act as evil. It is what society teaches that shapes our values.

 

[Ignatz]

the Barbarian wrote:

I'd certainly like to see where Jesus said that Genesis was entirely literal, or specifically where He said the flood was literal.

Solo wrote:

You wouldn't believe it, even if Jesus was telling you face to face in your own living room. You are like the rich young man that would have to sell all that he had and follow Jesus; you would lose too much in your temporal existance to believe the Word of God in its entirety.

The reason that many people, including many Christians, don't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis is because all of the evidence we have points to a history different than what is described in Genesis. Therefore, many of us believe that the Genesis account of creation is allegorical, not literal. It describes Gods relationship with his creation from the beginning, lays the foundation for mankinds relationship with Him, and tells us, in PRE-SCIENTIFIC language, that God is the source of all things. It does not, however, LITERALLY describe the physical processes that allow life and the universe to exist as they do. That's fine. God also didn't use the Bible to tell us anything about Quantum field theory, how to build the internal combustion engine or how to develop life-saving vaccines. Instead, he ALLOWS us to figure this stuff out for ourselves.

The Bible is a RELIGIOUS text that addresses our SPIRITUAL nature and our SPIRITUAL relationship with God. It is not a SCIENTIFIC text that addresses allele frequency changes in GROUPS of organisms over time.

 

[Heidi]

the Barbarian wrote:

I'd certainly like to see where Jesus said that Genesis was entirely literal, or specifically where He said the flood was literal.

Solo wrote:[quote:4abbc]You wouldn't believe it, even if Jesus was telling you face to face in your own living room. You are like the rich young man that would have to sell all that he had and follow Jesus; you would lose too much in your temporal existance to believe the Word of God in its entirety.

The reason that many people, including many Christians, don't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis is because all of the evidence we have points to a history different than what is described in Genesis. Therefore, many of us believe that the Genesis account of creation is allegorical, not literal. It describes Gods relationship with his creation from the beginning, lays the foundation for mankinds relationship with Him, and tells us, in PRE-SCIENTIFIC language, that God is the source of all things. It does not, however, LITERALLY describe the physical processes that allow life and the universe to exist as they do. That's fine. God also didn't use the Bible to tell us anything about Quantum field theory, how to build the internal combustion engine or how to develop life-saving vaccines. Instead, he ALLOWS us to figure this stuff out for ourselves.

The Bible is a RELIGIOUS text that addresses our SPIRITUAL nature and our SPIRITUAL relationship with God. It is not a SCIENTIFIC text that addresses allele frequency changes in GROUPS of organisms over time.[/quote:4abbc]

Your poss is a lie and I'll show you why. It also shows that you have not read Gensis in detail. You simply like to make statements that you cannot back up.

Firt of all, the biblical account of Genesis describes reality perfectly! Each animal breeds its own kind and humans rule over the animals. The bible also tells us to multiply and that the number of people on the earth for all time will number the sand on the seashore if they could be counted.

Genesis also says that the sun and moon will beused as light for the day and night and that the stars, moon and sun will be used by us to mark the seasons, days, weeks, months, and spiritual landmarks like Christ's birth. And that is what we use the stars moon and sun for today.

Genesis also says that God separated water from water by the sky. And scientists now estimate that ther are; 4, 600,000,000,000 tons of water in the air! And our human body is composed of 91% water.

Genesis also describes the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Abraham who are still feuding with each other today and have been ever since they were born. The Muslims freely admit they're the sons of Ishmael.

All of the cities, kingoms, wars, people, and kings in the bible can be documented by outside soursces. All ytou have to do is be able to pick up a book to see where.

Amd most importantly, you haven't a clue how each sentence in the NT not only can never be proven a lie, but verifies the OT perfectly and they were written thousands of years apart. Everyday I'm seeing more correlations that are virtually impossible for the human mind to make up and not contradict.

But if you want to put your faith in the fallible human mind, all you'll get is fallibility my friend. I know that many people want to play God which is why they want to figure things out for themsleves. But the fact of the matter is that none of us is omnicsitnet except for God whose Holy Spirit wrote the word. And if you first read and research it before you foolishly declare it isn't true, then you will see that no fallible human being could verify reality like the bible says. Only fallible human beings will assert that animals breed human beings! That only shows we're in a state of decay!

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian points out that Jesus never said Genesis was literal)

You wouldn't believe it, even if Jesus was telling you face to face in your own living room.

More to the point, I believe what He's telling me now, while you feel the need to add to it, to make it acceptable to you.

You are like the rich young man that would have to sell all that he had and follow Jesus; you would lose too much in your temporal existance to believe the Word of God in its entirety.

Rather, I have no need to add to it. Take God's word as it is, not as you'd like it to be.

 

[Solo]

(Barbarian points out that Jesus never said Genesis was literal)

You wouldn't believe it, even if Jesus was telling you face to face in your own living room.

More to the point, I believe what He's telling me now, while you feel the need to add to it, to make it acceptable to you.

[quote:8185a]You are like the rich young man that would have to sell all that he had and follow Jesus; you would lose too much in your temporal existance to believe the Word of God in its entirety.

Rather, I have no need to add to it. Take God's word as it is, not as you'd like it to be.[/quote:8185a]
You are discounting God's word and subtracting from it. Genesis describes that each plant and animal reproduces after its own kind, but your understanding does not allow for that truth so you consider Genesis non-literal. The unbelief of God's Word is common today, and the theory of evolution has allowed millions to doubt the truth contained in the Word of God by establishing a faith in something entirely different than truth.

You do have need to add to the Word of God, otherwise you wouldn't believe in the deception laid out for you. The devil doesn't make you or I sin or believe a lie. We do so based on our own desires. My desire is to know the truth of God and all that he has to offer. That is somewhat different than you, as you debate solely on the issue of evolution, touting that you are a believer, but never do I read any scripture from you, nor do I see you post in any other thread teaching others the Word of God.

I know why, do you?

 

[Drew]

You do have need to add to the Word of God, otherwise you wouldn't believe in the deception laid out for you. The devil doesn't make you or I sin or believe a lie. We do so based on our own desires. My desire is to know the truth of God and all that he has to offer. That is somewhat different than you, as you debate solely on the issue of evolution, touting that you are a believer, but never do I read any scripture from you, nor do I see you post in any other thread teaching others the Word of God.

I know why, do you?

This kind of "don't discuss the issue, but instead attack the character of your opponent" is a favourite tactic of all too many Christians on this board. Again, I appeal to your sense of decency as well as to the need for we Christians to appear as credible advocates for the faith. There are non-believers reading these words who have the intellectual sophistication to see it for what it is.

Man, if I read one more "You're just plain wrong and you will learn the truth on judgement day", so help me, I will eat my young....(which may or may not be some form of monkey)

 

[Solo]

Man, if I read one more "You're just plain wrong and you will learn the truth on judgement day", so help me, I will eat my young....(which may or may not be some form of monkey)

Well don't read your own post then because your monkey young will be inside you with all of the other mumbo jumbo. If you want to stand up for the lie of evolution, help yourself, but I will not stand for the deception that satan has puked into the institution of academia, nor will I stand for someone describing the creation portion of the Bible as figurative, allegorical, non-literal when they are totally wrong. You may believe in an old earth and monkey ancestry, but it is not what the Word of God says.

You should be more angry at those who call themselves Christians and distort the truth of the Word of God.

 

[Barbarian]

You are discounting God's word and subtracting from it. Genesis describes that each plant and animal reproduces after its own kind,

Hmmm... I would like to see that verse or verses. Tell us about them. They seem to be missing from my copy of the creation story. Genesis says that God created organisms after their kind, (not kinds) but says nothing about them reproducing after their kind.

but your understanding does not allow for that truth so you consider Genesis non-literal.

Most Christians accept that Genesis is not literal and that you should not add things like that to Scripture. I'm one of them.

The unbelief of God's Word is common today, and the theory of evolution has allowed millions to doubt the truth contained in the Word of God by establishing a faith in something entirely different than truth.

As you see, your inclinations have led you to alter God's Word to suit your preferences. This cannot be good.

You do have need to add to the Word of God, otherwise you wouldn't believe in the deception laid out for you. The devil doesn't make you or I sin or believe a lie. We do so based on our own desires. My desire is to know the truth of God and all that he has to offer.

If so, why do you add to His word? Shouldn't it be good enough as it is?

That is somewhat different than you, as you debate solely on the issue of evolution, touting that you are a believer, but never do I read any scripture from you, nor do I see you post in any other thread teaching others the Word of God.

I just pointed out God's Scripture to you, and suggested that you not modify it in any way.

I know why, do you?

I can only conclude that Genesis, as it is written, is not acceptable to you. Why else add anything?

Let God be God, and accept what He has given us.

 

[Solo]

You are discounting God's word and subtracting from it. Genesis describes that each plant and animal reproduces after its own kind,

Hmmm... I would like to see that verse or verses. Tell us about them. They seem to be missing from my copy of the creation story. Genesis says that God created organisms after their kind, (not kinds) but says nothing about them reproducing after their kind.

Since your scripture is missing I have posted the history of the creation as recorded in Genesis 1. I will point out to you the areas where you have subtracted from the Word of God or have a record of the Word that is lacking.

First, notice in Genesis 1:11-12 God created plants and he describes the plants as having "seed after his kind". He describes "the tree yielding fruit whose seed was in itself, after his kind". This was accomplished on the third day, one day before God created the sun and moon and stars. Imagine if evolution had tried to get started before the sun was created how miserable the plant life would have been after a couple of days.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:11-12

Genesis 1:20-23 records how God created the creatures of the sea and the creatures of the air. Each of these creatures were "brought forth abundantly, after their kind", and "God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let the fowl multiply in the earth". This was all accomplished on the fifth day. Notice that each creature was created "after their kind", and God blessed each kind and told them to "multiply".

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Genesis 1:20-23

In Genesis 1:24-25, it is recorded where God created the land creatures. Each creature that God created was created "after his kind".

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:24-25

God made man next in his image. Jesus, the Word, was at the creation and nothing was created without him. Notice that God gave man dominion over the rest of his creation, and not only did God create man, but he created man in His image. God blessed man and woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply, and man has done exactly that from the sixth day on.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:26-28

but your understanding does not allow for that truth so you consider Genesis non-literal.

Most Christians accept that Genesis is not literal and that you should not add things like that to Scripture. I'm one of them.

Most non-Christians believe that Genesis is not literal, and some who go by the name of Christian accept that Genesis is not literal. I find no where in Genesis where an allagorical stance is taken to explain the creation as God uses in prophecy where events are not understandable to all generations. It is pretty simple to explain the events of creation, and that is exactly how it is done.

The unbelief of God's Word is common today, and the theory of evolution has allowed millions to doubt the truth contained in the Word of God by establishing a faith in something entirely different than truth.

As you see, your inclinations have led you to alter God's Word to suit your preferences. This cannot be good.

I do not alter God's literal record of creation as you have done. I do not swallow the lie of evolution to the point that you have. To swallow evolution over the truth recorded in Genesis is quite interesting, and for the life of me, not understandable as to why one would do that, unless they were riding on the cycle of unbelief.

You do have need to add to the Word of God, otherwise you wouldn't believe in the deception laid out for you. The devil doesn't make you or I sin or believe a lie. We do so based on our own desires. My desire is to know the truth of God and all that he has to offer.

If so, why do you add to His word? Shouldn't it be good enough as it is?

God's word is plenty enough, therefore it doesn't need added to, or subtracted from. When the Word of God is read with the Holy Spirit's guidence, it can not be misinterpreted. Try it sometime.

That is somewhat different than you, as you debate solely on the issue of evolution, touting that you are a believer, but never do I read any scripture from you, nor do I see you post in any other thread teaching others the Word of God.

I just pointed out God's Scripture to you, and suggested that you not modify it in any way.

I do not modify God's Word to accomplish my own personal purposes as some do, therefore I have posted the entire first chapter of Genesis, so that you may read exactly what I read.

I know why, do you?

I can only conclude that Genesis, as it is written, is not acceptable to you. Why else add anything?

Let God be God, and accept what He has given us.

Exactly, and if you can follow your own advice, you will come to the same conclusion that the Holy Spirit has taught millions of believers.

Here is the literal creation as recorded in the Word of God. Please read word for word with the correct definition and understanding of each one.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Barbarian]

In other words, it doesn't actually say that they reproduce according to kind, but you'd like it to be so, so you add that.

This is what I was telling you was a bad idea.

Most non-Christians believe that Genesis is not literal

Nope. Most atheists I know, for example, agree with you on whether or not it was intended to be literal. Most Christians disagree with them.

And that's not a recent development. As you see, even the earliest Christians realized this. In order to make Genesis acceptable to you, you added "reproduce according to kind" which is not in Genesis.

Let God be God, and accept it His way.

 

[dad]

Amazing, completely ignore what I say and turn it into a personal attack.

I don't know you, or even most of your posts here, so it wasn't personal. I thought I addressed a point, but if you didn't mean something, hopefully it will get cleared up.
[quote:3bc6a]Do try and at least talk about the point I've raised rather than going off on tangents. As I said you cannot test the spiritual, you can only test any physical interaction claimed by the spiritual world.

Occasionally, maybe, not usually. God doesn't usually perform for the satisfaction of lab monkeys.

For example if a medium says he can talk to dead people and thereby find out facts about our lives, that is an easily testable claim.

Houdini had such an experience where his mother saved his life on time, in a trick gone bad. He explored mediums and psycics, and found a lot of fakes, and exposed them. The fact that there was a real spiritual experience had nothing to do with that. Being at the right place, to try to evidence a genuine spiritual experience, which most men on earth acknowledge are real, by the way, doesn't fit your description. When it does, it is denied anyhow, such as the ressurection, that was well witnessed!

If a tarot reader says through her connection with the spirit world she can accurately tell the future, that is a testifiable claim. It is these claims that we would look for, and not simply trying to point out angels or ghosts which I've already said is not possible.

Most of the looking is looking at phonies, to justify a pre determined belief that it is all false. Aimee Semple MacPherson prayed for tens of thousands, and many were healed.

Of course not, the things you are stating are not improving the game, simply taking away the skill.

Taking away people dying and getting wounded doesn't have to affect skill. People could still be a good shot, or fast runner, etc, without the built in thrill of the risk of death. Like a daredevil, if there was no danger, there would be no devils! Sports and war are about pride, Wars have been started, as you must know over these things. The destruction of other men, for self preservation, and glorification of the flesh. Look how smart we are, how fast and strong we are, etc. They ststion I think it is usually 2 ambulances at football games, and more often than not they are needed for broken bones, fractures, or worse! At least in my limited experience.

You go to watch a high wire act to see the great balance and skill of the performer, you don't go expecting to see a fall and carnage. You go to car races to see drivers lightning reflexes at high speeds and the skill displayed, not to see crashes.

If this were true, the skill of walking on a wire could be displayed in a wire that was only 2 feet off the ground, or other such safety features. People come for blood, really, and a hockey game without fights many find boring.

If your theory that it is only violence that fills stands was true we would see no crowds at golf, tennis, netball, snooker, or cricket, obviously this is not the case.

I don't say it is just that in all cases. I have no such theory. But you likely will find the pride most places, that haunts the event.

Obviously I was referring to almost every team sport. Violence in these games is not tolerated, is not rewarded and quickly punished.

How about wrestling tag teams? Football teams, or hockey? Violence is built in, and without it there could be no sport in many cases. It would fade and die.

The main point here is the whole intent is different. Gladiators went to kill or be killed, it was all about blood and death, and society not only allowed it but fully supported it.

The US supports, for example, killing civilians as a casualty of the sport of war. More civies are killed than soldiers I think. Many countries support killing, oe being killed in the areana of war, and even accept death in sport, and violence is on the increase in every way, like video games. The beast just has new clothes.

No modern sport has that intent, and society now teaches that such bloody ideas are evil. Good and evil are defined by society.

Killing millions and millions, boatloads of unborn children is fine with the world these days, weapons of mass destruction exist in Britian, and many other places, and they won't get rid of them. Very bloody ideas indeed. Sports is quite bloody as well, and getting more so. They never had exterme fighting, and kickboxing, etc. for all that long, or on the scale of today. The road to the end of the world has had an increase in the speed limit.

You believe abortion clinics are evil, but society teaches they are not. I'm not talking about my personal views on that matter as thats not the point, again this is showing that it is society that defines what is good and what is evil, not any inbuilt good'ometer.

They define no good and evil, they just justify evil as is seen fit. Their laws have little to do with good and evil in many cases!

Another example would be stoning people as a form of execution. In the middle east there are still countries who use this practice.

Not as barbaric as letting thousands of molesters out of jail, who often torture and rape people. Stoning some of these guys would be a service to humanity.

They are taught that it is right and just to execute in this fashion, and society supports this.

I'd let my kids walk there, rather than in say, New Orleans, or LA.

Our western society considers it horrific and evil, and due to the different way we are taught, we hold the same act as evil. It is what society teaches that shapes our values.

[/quote:3bc6a]
Doesn't shape mine as much as some apparently. I look to better things to shape for values than that.

 

[Wertbag]

Occasionally, maybe, not usually. God doesn't usually perform for the satisfaction of lab monkeys.

Why doesn't God make himself known to everyone directly?

Being at the right place, to try to evidence a genuine spiritual experience, which most men on earth acknowledge are real, by the way, doesn't fit your description. When it does, it is denied anyhow, such as the ressurection, that was well witnessed!

Most people on earth are religious, but not of the same beliefs (the old saying, regardless of which religion if any is correct the majority of the worlds population is wrong). The trick is that Muslims claim miracles occur when they pray to Allah, yet if their religion is fake they must be incorrect. Its not a simple statement that spiritual is true or not, its what exactly spiritual is claimed and whether or not each individual believes it.
Each religion believes they are correct and the others are wrong, each claim supernatural events occur to them, and each fail to convince the others that they are correct.

How about wrestling tag teams? Football teams, or hockey? Violence is built in, and without it there could be no sport in many cases. It would fade and die.

Professional Wrestling is all about acting. If they are skilled then no injury occurs, they simply put on a good show.
Football depends on which version; soccer is the biggest sport in the world, and the is hardly any physical contact, rugby or rugby league have tackling and scrums, but players walk away from a game with brusing being the worse of their worries more often than not. Grid iron/american football has blocking and tackles, but with the helmets and heavy padding injury is minimalised. Again fighting in any of these sports is not tolerated, is not rewarded and quickly punished.

Sports is quite bloody as well, and getting more so. They never had exterme fighting, and kickboxing, etc. for all that long, or on the scale of today. The road to the end of the world has had an increase in the speed limit.

Never had kickboxing? Mauy Thai is a martial art that pre-dates Christ. For over 2000 years Thailand have had tournaments and competitions, and due to the rules back then (wrapped hands rather than gloves, no doctors, no round times etc) there were frequent deaths. Now days with the changes made to the sport death is an incredibly rare thing. Its been tamed down to reduce the risks.
Boxing and wrestling are both olympic events that have been sports for thousands of years. Records of boxing as a sport date back over 5,000 year to ancient Mesopotamia. Boxing first appeared as an Olympic event in the 7th century B.C.
The difference in all these cases is that with modern gloves, padding, rules and timing the risk to the combatants has been greatly reduced.

I'd let my kids walk there, rather than in say, New Orleans, or LA.

I'd let my kids walk practically anywhere in New Zealand. Violent crime is a rare thing here.

 

[dad]

Why doesn't God make himself known to everyone directly?

He did, long ago. He used to walk and talk with men. It is by our invitation only now, since we departed from His waus, and His will.

[quote:563d2]Most people on earth are religious, but not of the same beliefs (the old saying, regardless of which religion if any is correct the majority of the worlds population is wrong). The trick is that Muslims claim miracles occur when they pray to Allah, yet if their religion is fake they must be incorrect.

They do the best they can with what they know, and He has to operate accordingly. When a muslim gets saved, and prays to Jesus, they realize that all that used to go on was they didn't really know Him that well, and His name.

Its not a simple statement that spiritual is true or not, its what exactly spiritual is claimed and whether or not each individual believes it.

The majority know some spiritual exists of some kind, whether your ghostbusting equiptment works or not.

Each religion believes they are correct and the others are wrong, each claim supernatural events occur to them, and each fail to convince the others that they are correct.

I was not talking about religion, but the spiritual. If we take the christian belief, Jesus is the name of the game. Doesn't matter what else they may have skewed up.

Professional Wrestling is all about acting. If they are skilled then no injury occurs, they simply put on a good show.

And yet wrestlers die. The show is designed fot the bloodthirsty as well.

Football depends on which version; soccer is the biggest sport in the world, and the is hardly any physical contact,

Yet, with the pride involved, I hear it was the spark of some south american wars. The bloodshed manifested itself in other ways. Look at the soccer punks they call 'hooligans'!

rugby or rugby league have tackling and scrums, but players walk away from a game with brusing being the worse of their worries more often than not.

But often much worse as well.

Grid iron/american football has blocking and tackles, but with the helmets and heavy padding injury is minimalised.

The violence is lessened, to the extent the multiple, and routine injuries are less than they would be if some had their way.

Again fighting in any of these sports is not tolerated, is not rewarded and quickly punished.

Hockey fights are not tolerated? Seems to me the old wink and nod are the rule there. Without fights and checking, even sticking, hockey would likely die a swift death!

Never had kickboxing? Mauy Thai is a martial art that pre-dates Christ. For over 2000 years Thailand have had tournaments and competitions, and due to the rules back then (wrapped hands rather than gloves, no doctors, no round times etc) there were frequent deaths. Now days with the changes made to the sport death is an incredibly rare thing. Its been tamed down to reduce the risks.

It is dressed in more respectable modern clothing, same beast underneath.

Boxing and wrestling are both olympic events that have been sports for thousands of years. Records of boxing as a sport date back over 5,000 year to ancient Mesopotamia. Boxing first appeared as an Olympic event in the 7th century B.C.

Yes, many things have a history. This doesn't mean men are not getting more violent these days. Did they used to bite off the opponents ear?

The difference in all these cases is that with modern gloves, padding, rules and timing the risk to the combatants has been greatly reduced.

Not in war, man's favorite sport! If you think violence is on the wane look at some movies, and video games. Look at the violent crime. Look at the rise of some of the violent sports. Not being allowed to kill in the area is a technicality. They die all over the place. Not as fast as they could if we took off the glove, but we're getting closer to that all the time.

I'd let my kids walk practically anywhere in New Zealand. Violent crime is a rare thing here.

[/quote:563d2]

Long as they stay in your quaint neighborhood of that little country, maybe you are right. If they were strolling in New Orleans a few months ago, they may have had a different feeling. When the lights go out, and the veneer of civilized man dissapears, we see the beast within.

 

[Loren Michael]

Yes, many things have a history. This doesn't mean men are not getting more violent these days. Did they used to bite off the opponents ear?

i don't want to get involved here, but this seems like kind of an... odd comment, to put it lightly. you're putting one violent maniac as an example against five thousand years of history. violent maniacs have always existed. you basically made no point whatsoever in that paragraph.

that is all. i didn't really read the rest. that bit just caught my eye.

 

[Solo]

In other words, it doesn't actually say that they reproduce according to kind, but you'd like it to be so, so you add that.

This is what I was telling you was a bad idea.

The Bible does say that each created plant and animal reproduces after its own kind. You do not want it to be that way so that you can tout the deception of evolutionary origins of created life forms.

I see that it isn't that your scripture is lacking, it is that your comprehension of the Word of God is lacking. The scripture that says that the reproductive portion of the plant and animal is after its kind. Read Genesis 1:12 very carefully:

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:12

Most non-Christians believe that Genesis is not literal

Nope. Most atheists I know, for example, agree with you on whether or not it was intended to be literal. Most Christians disagree with them.

You are wrong in this assessment as well, as atheists do not believe in creation, but instead believe in the lie of evolution. Atheists do not believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis, otherwise they would not be atheists.

And that's not a recent development. As you see, even the earliest Christians realized this. In order to make Genesis acceptable to you, you added "reproduce according to kind" which is not in Genesis.

Let God be God, and accept it His way.

The scripture is quite clear on the reproductive attributes of each kind multiplying after its kind. I wouldn't expect someone who has sold their soul to the deception of evolution to admit their error in understanding clear and precise history of creation, but to lie in the light of scripture is very telling about your true position in Christ Jesus.

 

[dad]

i don't want to get involved here, but this seems like kind of an...

Why not? Who cares who gets involved where?
[quote:5d8ca]odd comment, to put it lightly. you're putting one violent maniac as an example against five thousand years of history. violent maniacs have always existed. you basically made no point whatsoever in that paragraph.

Tyson wsn't the sole basis for the claim men are waxing more violent over time. Also, that this is a trait spoken of in the endtime. I listed WOMD, millions of unborn children murdered, tv, and video games getting more violent, violent crime in big cities, rising popularity of extreme violent sports, war associated with the pride of sports, death matches in Russia, sexual predators on the loose, etc.

that is all. i didn't really read the rest. that bit just caught my eye.

[/quote:5d8ca]
Hey, thats why I stick a little flare in there here and there, to catch a little attention.

 

[Wertbag]

Thanks for taking the time to discuss your ideas with me dad, its been very interesting. I'm going to take this opurturnity to opt out of the conversation as I think we've pretty well been around the block with the various aspects discussed.
Time to move onto new subjects...

 

[Shinto]

Yes, many things have a history. This doesn't mean men are not getting more violent these days. Did they used to bite off the opponents ear?

There is no way people are getting more violent.

In Ancient Rome violent crime was worse than it is today, people regularly assembled to watch men kill eachother and be killed by animals. War was more violent. Less people died because the technology was more primitive, but you didn't drop bombs. You pushed your spear into someone until they blew their dying breath on your face. Violent conflict was engaged in at the drop of a hat.

Last I knew we don't Crucify tens of thousands of people along roadsides to prove a point, as the Romans did to the followers of Spartacus. But then, we don't keep slaves anymore either, so less violence there also.

As to sports, the tension between the fans of the Green and Blue chariot teams that erupted in the Nika revolt nearly destroyed Constantinople and brought down Justinian, the greatest Byzantine Emperor. Last I knew no sports shenanigans, even riots, threatened to physically destroy a city and the government of the nation.

Were we as violent today as were our predecessors within Western Civilization we would have cut the trigger fingers off of every male Sunni in Iraq. We would have beheaded fleeing refugees from Fallujah and thrown the heads into the city to dispirit the insurgents. We wouldn't have tortured detainees, we would have crucified every one of them in public.

Were we as violent today we would not be able to have a multiparty system. At the beginning of the Republic the Federalists would have marched soldiers into Virginia and rural Pennsylvania and started burning farms rather than allow the political opposition of the Jeffersonian Republicans.