The False Security of Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

On the way to work this morning I was scanning through the radio dial and came across a program where someone (Adrian Rogers I think) was teaching on eternal security. His "proof text" was Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." From what I heard he never mentioned verse 27 that goes with verse 28, verse 27 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


To qualify as one of Christ's sheep and be in the hand of God requires that one hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense showing an on-going, sustained acton and not just a one time or occasional action. One of his own will chooses to hear and follow and as long as he hears and follows Christ he cannot be snatched from God's hand. But if one of his own will chooses to quit hearing and following, he disqualifies himself from being a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand.


There are two sides to salvation:

1) man's faithfulness to God

2) God's faithfulness to man.

Verse 27 shows (1) man's faithfulness to God by man having an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Verse 28 shows (2) God's faithfulness to man in not allowing man to be snatched away as long as man remains faithful to God. The radio speaker only wanted to talk about (2) God's faithfulness to man as if God will be unconditionally faithful to man whether or not man remains faithful to God in his hearing and following.


(The radio speaker falsely claimed Judas was never saved and then purposely misquoted Jn 6:64 by saying "Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe.")

 

[BornAgain]

On the way to work this morning I was scanning through the radio dial and came across a program where someone (Adrian Rogers I think) was teaching on eternal security. His "proof text" was Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." From what I heard he never mentioned verse 27 that goes with verse 28, verse 27 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


To qualify as one of Christ's sheep and be in the hand of God requires that one hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense showing an on-going, sustained acton and not just a one time or occasional action. One of his own will chooses to hear and follow and as long as he hears and follows Christ he cannot be snatched from God's hand. But if one of his own will chooses to quit hearing and following, he disqualifies himself from being a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand.


There are two sides to salvation:

1) man's faithfulness to God

2) God's faithfulness to man.

Verse 27 shows (1) man's faithfulness to God by man having an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Verse 28 shows (2) God's faithfulness to man in not allowing man to be snatched away as long as man remains faithful to God. The radio speaker only wanted to talk about (2) God's faithfulness to man as if God will be unconditionally faithful to man whether or not man remains faithful to God in his hearing and following.


(The radio speaker falsely claimed Judas was never saved and then purposely misquoted Jn 6:64 by saying "Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe.")

Verse 64 is a statement of the Lord. The unbelief of some of his hearers he knew about, not because they murmured and objected but because he knows the hearts of all men, nothing being hidden from his eyes. Heb 4:13. Because of these powers He already knew who would betray him. By knowing what is in the hearts of all men, he could immediately determine what the course of all such would be. Some assume that because Jesus knew this, he must have willed it; but, to know and to determine are two very different acts. The "beginning" from which Jesus knew these things was from the first day that these disciples began to follow him. He saw in their character and conduct the course of their lives. Though some affected to follow him they were not true disciples, because they were not drawn to him by the Father. But, how does the Father draw? Jesus answers very fully and conclusively in John 6:45: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me." Those who hear the Father's word and are influenced by him come to Christ. In this way the Father draws. Some in that day, as in this, followed for the "loaves and fishes"; others, truly desirous of doing the Father's will, found it fully expressed in Christ and in heart-felt obedience turned to Him.

 

[Eventide]

Saved ONCE...

Well, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved twice.. so you'd better be really really good once you're saved.. because if you're not.. then sorry.. there's NO getting saved again.. for it is impossible to crucify the Lord again and put Him to open shame..

imo it simply highlights how many do not understand the gospel in the first place.. so many in christendom think and believe that God is making YOU better.. and it's completely false.. there's nothing good in us and people just can't accept that truth.

Once you're saved, you are positionally DEAD and risen with Christ.. we struggle with the flesh in a practical sense, but thanks be to GOD that I am crucified with Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Verse 64 is a statement of the Lord. The unbelief of some of his hearers he knew about, not because they murmured and objected but because he knows the hearts of all men, nothing being hidden from his eyes. Heb 4:13. Because of these powers He already knew who would betray him. By knowing what is in the hearts of all men, he could immediately determine what the course of all such would be. Some assume that because Jesus knew this, he must have willed it; but, to know and to determine are two very different acts. The "beginning" from which Jesus knew these things was from the first day that these disciples began to follow him. He saw in their character and conduct the course of their lives. Though some affected to follow him they were not true disciples, because they were not drawn to him by the Father. But, how does the Father draw? Jesus answers very fully and conclusively in John 6:45: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me." Those who hear the Father's word and are influenced by him come to Christ. In this way the Father draws. Some in that day, as in this, followed for the "loaves and fishes"; others, truly desirous of doing the Father's will, found it fully expressed in Christ and in heart-felt obedience turned to him.

Hi,

In Jn 6:64 Jesus is also speaking of two different groups:

KJV "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

One group is a plural they and the other is a singluar who.

YLT renders this verse "but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up,"

Judas was the singular he that would betray and not of the plural they that would not believe.

In the context you quoted, Jn 6:45 it shows that God draws men by His word, where men are taught, hear and learn then cometh to Christ.

The verb cometh is present tense, middle deponent.

The present tense shows that the coming is ongoing, sustained as the verbs hearing and following in Jn 6:27 are present tense, active voice.

The middle deponent (just as active voice) shows it is man's own action, his own choice in coming to Christ as it is man's own choice to hear and follow Christ. So if man chooses to quit coming to Christ, chooses to quit hearing and following he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep and backslides himself out of God's hand.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

Well, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved twice.. so you'd better be really really good once you're saved.. because if you're not.. then sorry.. there's NO getting saved again.. for it is impossible to crucify the Lord again and put Him to open shame..

imo it simply highlights how many do not understand the gospel in the first place.. so many in christendom think and believe that God is making YOU better.. and it's completely false.. there's nothing good in us and people just can't accept that truth.

Once you're saved, you are positionally DEAD and risen with Christ.. we struggle with the flesh in a practical sense, but thanks be to GOD that I am crucified with Christ.

Lk 15:24 "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

For the prodigal to be alive AGAIN means he had to be alive before. The son was spiritually alive, spiritually died and was spiritually alive AGAIN.

You say "Well, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved twice." If this were true, then it would be impossible for the son, the sheep, the coin to ever be found again for they would all be lost for good, never to be found again.

----------------------------------------------------


The context in Heb 6:4-6 is plainly talking about those in a saved position that fall away.

The context says it is "impossible....to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame."


1) Simon in Acts 8 fell away and became lost, but was commanded to pray and repent to be forgiven. So it is not always impossible to repent.

2) both verbs crucify and put are in the present tense showing they fell away into a state where they were continously, ongoingly crucifying and putting Christ to shame. Christ is why one repents and if one finds himself in a state where he is continuously, ongoingly crucfying 'the reason to repent' then it is impossible to bring them to repentance. But if they would stop crucifying and putting Christ to shame then they could come to repentance. Simon did not remain in a present tense state of crucifying and putting Christ to shame so he could come to repentance.

3) this is similar, I believe, to what Jesus said to the Pharisees in Mk 1:15 where Jesus commanded them to "repent ye, and believe the gospel." Normally one would think one would believe before he would repent for an unbeliever has no desire to repent. What we have here in Mk 1:15 is the Pharisees hearts were so harden against Christ and as long as they had a hard heart it would be impossible for them to ever believe. So they would first have to repent/change their hard heart toward Christ then they come to believe in Him.

 

[BornAgain]

Hi,

In Jn 6:64 Jesus is also speaking of two different groups:

KJV "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

One group is a plural they and the other is a singluar who.

YLT renders this verse "but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up,"

Judas was the singular he that would betray and not of the plural they that would not believe.

In the context you quoted, Jn 6:45 it shows that God draws men by His word, where men are taught, hear and learn then cometh to Christ.

The verb cometh is present tense, middle deponent.

The present tense shows that the coming is ongoing, sustained as the verbs hearing and following in Jn 6:27 are present tense, active voice.

The middle deponent (just as active voice) shows it is man's own action, his own choice in coming to Christ as it is man's own choice to hear and follow Christ. So if man chooses to quit coming to Christ, chooses to quit hearing and following he no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep and backslides himself out of God's hand.

Thank you, so men are to be taught of God; those who learn of him in this fashion come to know Christ, his Son, and to believe on him. Correct?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

You say "Well, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be saved twice." If this were true, then it wouls be impossible for the son the sheep, the coin to ever be found again for they wouls all be lost for good never to be found again.

I'm flattered that you atribute this scriptural truth to me.. but it's the word of God.. and I'm certainly not God..

If you'd like to believe that you can be saved, then lost, and then saved again by crucifying Christ again.. then so be it. Once again it simply highlights that you do not understand the gospel in the first place..

So I'd say that I hope you're good enough, but I know better..

There are none good but ONE, and that is God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

I'm flattered that you atribute this scriptural truth to me.. but it's the word of God.. and I'm certainly not God..

If you'd like to believe that you can be saved, then lost, and then saved again by crucifying Christ again.. then so be it. Once again it simply highlights that you do not understand the gospel in the first place..

So I'd say that I hope you're good enough, but I know better..

There are none good but ONE, and that is God.

It came from your post, that is why I attribute it to you. The bible says the son was alive AGAIN, the lost coin and the lost sheep were found. So how can that be if one can never become lost and saved again? Why would Peter command Simon to repent of his wickedness if that were not possible?

 

[BornAgain]

Re: Saved ONCE...

I'm flattered that you atribute this scriptural truth to me.. but it's the word of God.. and I'm certainly not God..

If you'd like to believe that you can be saved, then lost, and then saved again by crucifying Christ again.. then so be it. Once again it simply highlights that you do not understand the gospel in the first place..

So I'd say that I hope you're good enough, but I know better..

There are none good but ONE, and that is God.

How were you saved, Eventide? Were you always saved? Or lost and then saved, or saved and then lost or once saved always saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thank you, so men are to be taught of God; those who learn of him in this fashion come to know Christ, his Son, and to believe on him. Correct?

Yes. As I read somewhere that simply put it: God draws, men come.

Calvinism has it wrong in that the drawing is unconditionally or irresistible for the process invovles the will of man in coming to Christ. Some men are taught, hear and learn yet refuse of their own will to come to Christ as many Pharisees heard Christ preach many times but refused to come to Him.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

It came from your post, that is why I attribute it to you. The bible says the son was alive AGAIN, the lost coin and the lost sheep were found. So how can that be if one can never become lost and saved again? Why would Peter command Simon to repent of his wickedness if that were not possible?

The parables you're speaking of relate to the one who seeks and saves the lost.. and that's before salvation. There is not a single mention of a person who has been saved as being lost.. and in 1 Cor Paul tells the assembly to remove a brother for serious sin and turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.. that he might be SAVED in the day of redemption..

Now, why would you suppose that there is not a single mention of a person becoming unsaved in the NT ?

When we're saved we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.. and we know that it's possible to grieve the Holy Spirit and even quench the Spirit of God in us.. but Paul never once mentions that they can be LOST again..

I wonder why ?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

How were you saved, Eventide?

BY GRACE through FAITH of course.. is there any other way ?

Were you always saved?

Of course NOT.. I was LOST and dead in trespasses and in sins like everyone else.

Or lost and then saved, or saved and then lost or once saved always saved?

LOST and then SAVED is the gospel.. once again, it is impossible to come to repentance again as that would crucify Christ again and put Him t an open shame..

Don't people actually BELIEVE that.. or is it optional ?

 

[BornAgain]

Yes. As I read somewhere that simply put it: God draws, men come.

Calvinism has it wrong in that the drawing is unconditionally or irresistible for the process invovles the will of man in coming to Christ. Some men are taught, hear and learn yet refuse of their own will to come to Christ as many Pharisees heard Christ preach many times but refused to come to Him.

I did not want to mention Calvinism but since you mentioned it in your thread and through research found that neither here, nor elsewhere in the scriptures, is there any support for the Calvinistic view that God draws men to him irresistably and without conditions or that there is a choice by which some are elected and others rejected for salvation. Some will not respond to the loving appeals of the gospel because of their own perversity of heart. Jesus had earlier said, "And ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." (John S: 40. See, also, Matt. 13:14, 15.) Men are to be taught of God; those who learn of him in this fashion come to know Christ, his Son, and to believe on him. This is what is meant by coming to Christ. It should be noted that both teaching and learning are mentioned. One, indeed, is a corollary of the other; actually, one teaches only when there is learning, and there is learning only when there is teaching. It is true that matters may he presented when there is no learning, but the teaching process occur rs only when learning follows.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

The parables you're speaking of relate to the one who seeks and saves the lost.. and that's before salvation. There is not a single mention of a person who has been saved as being lost.. and in 1 Cor Paul tells the assembly to remove a brother for serious sin and turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.. that he might be SAVED in the day of redemption..

Now, why would you suppose that there is not a single mention of a person becoming unsaved in the NT ?

When we're saved we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.. and we know that it's possible to grieve the Holy Spirit and even quench the Spirit of God in us.. but Paul never once mentions that they can be LOST again..

I wonder why ?

Are you suggesting the sheep, the coin, and the son were always lost until they were found??? How can it be said the son was alive AGAIN if he were always lost?

Paul was telling the church at Corinth in 1 Cor 5:5 to practice church discipline against this sinner, to have no more fellowship with him that he MAY be saved. The purpose of discipline is for the hope the sinner will repent and return.


Seals can be broken. Some 25 or so years later the church at Ephesus that was said to be "sealed" had by Rev 2 left their first love, fallen away and threatened to repent or else have their candlestick (church) removed.

 

[farouk]

I think in Scripture there is a lot of evidence both for God's sovereignty and for human responsibility.

Even in John 6, the two are side by side: 'All that the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto me I shall in no wise cast out'.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I did not want to mention Calvinism but since you mentioned it in your thread and through research found that neither here, nor elsewhere in the scriptures, is there any support for the Calvinistic view that God draws men to him irresistably and without conditions or that there is a choice by which some are elected and others rejected for salvation. Some will not respond to the loving appeals of the gospel because of their own perversity of heart. Jesus had earlier said, "And ye will not come to me, that ye may have life." (John S: 40. See, also, Matt. 13:14, 15.) Men are to be taught of God; those who learn of him in this fashion come to know Christ, his Son, and to believe on him. This is what is meant by coming to Christ. It should be noted that both teaching and learning are mentioned. One, indeed, is a corollary of the other; actually, one teaches only when there is learning, and there is learning only when there is teaching. It is true that matters may he presented when there is no learning, but the teaching process occur rs only when learning follows.

Before one can come to Christ he must conditionally be taught, hear and learn. And man is not so depraved that he is unable to come to Christ of his own will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think in Scripture there is a lot of evidence both for God's sovereignty and for human responsibility.

Even in John 6, the two are side by side: 'All that the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto me I shall in no wise cast out'.

Man has the ability and responsibility to come to Christ. Above, the verb cometh is present tense, middle deponent.

The present tense shows the coming must be ongoing, sustained. For if one quits coming he can be cast out..."And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." It is a dangerous thing for one to come to Christ, to plough, but then quit for he is then no longer fit for the kingdom of God.

The middle deponent shows that it is man's own action, his own choice to come to Christ and not something passively predetemined by God as to who can or cannot come to Christ.

 

[farouk]

It does say:

'...no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.'

(John 6.65-69)

And actually, passages such as the end of Romans 8 are a glorious declaration of the believer's security in Christ.

 

[BornAgain]

Re: Saved ONCE...

BY GRACE through FAITH of course.. is there any other way ?



Of course NOT.. I was LOST and dead in trespasses and in sins like everyone else.



LOST and then SAVED is the gospel.. once again, it is impossible to come to repentance again as that would crucify Christ again and put Him t an open shame..

Don't people actually BELIEVE that.. or is it optional ?

Please explain grace through faith.

 

[farouk]

It can be helpful to see the context of the words 'by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast', by looking at its context within Ephesians 2. We see that the Ephesians believers are described as having been dead 'in trespasses and sins' but it is by grace that they were made alive, when they exercised faith in the Lord Jesus.