The False Security of Eternal Security

[BornAgain]

The point is that it's not permanent, genuine faith that is in question there.

F, what do you mean by genuine faith here? What do you mean that it is permanent?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

He was alive once, sin sprang up and he died, then could he be alive again after being alive once?

There's a world of difference between being alive in the first Adam and alive in Christ, the Last Adam.. isn't that painfully obvious E ?

Reply #5.

Then we'll simply need to disagree.. imo it's once again painfully obvious what Heb 6 is speaking of.. and imo what you're saying aint it !

And I could understand trying to defend something like that if your assembly constantly sacrifices Christ again and again.. you wouldn't really have a choice in the matter would you ?

 

[Cassian]

On the way to work this morning I was scanning through the radio dial and came across a program where someone (Adrian Rogers I think) was teaching on eternal security. His "proof text" was Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." From what I heard he never mentioned verse 27 that goes with verse 28, verse 27 says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"


To qualify as one of Christ's sheep and be in the hand of God requires that one hear and follow Christ. Both verbs "hear" and "follow" are in the Greek present tense showing an on-going, sustained acton and not just a one time or occasional action. One of his own will chooses to hear and follow and as long as he hears and follows Christ he cannot be snatched from God's hand. But if one of his own will chooses to quit hearing and following, he disqualifies himself from being a sheep of Christ and removes himself from God's hand.


There are two sides to salvation:

1) man's faithfulness to God

2) God's faithfulness to man.

Verse 27 shows (1) man's faithfulness to God by man having an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Verse 28 shows (2) God's faithfulness to man in not allowing man to be snatched away as long as man remains faithful to God. The radio speaker only wanted to talk about (2) God's faithfulness to man as if God will be unconditionally faithful to man whether or not man remains faithful to God in his hearing and following.


(The radio speaker falsely claimed Judas was never saved and then purposely misquoted Jn 6:64 by saying "Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would not believe.")

It is ironic that the very persons who hold to "eternal security" actually do not know it they are actually being saved.

Since salvation depends totally upon God, and God cannot let them go, they assume that since they believed, they are home free. Yet, when such a person who has been faithful, bore much fruit for most of his life, suddenly rejects God, rejects his relationship with God, we have two options of why this occurred.

The traditional statement that they were not really saved to begin with. If so, then God is playing games with a lot of people.

The only other option is that God rejected them. Making them think they are saved by using them in His Kingdom for a while then discarding them.

Both of these options are unscriptural because the premise is unscriptural. It is based on the false foundation of the theory of predestination. There has never been a doctrine of "eternal security" in scripture. You will find no historical record of such a doctrine until after the reformation and ONLY in reformed theology.

We are in a mutual relationship that is synergistic with God. It is not a unilateral arrangement of some kind. Man is the weak link in the relationship. God is not the one that is fickle and unfaithful or does not hold to His promises. It is man who becomes unfaithful, loses faith, thus loses salvation.

Salvation is a journey of being conformed to His Image, to be made holy, blameless. It is not a one time shot and your in. It is active and ongoing. Scripture is full of examples and warnings not to lose faith.

Why is not losing faith so important? Because the vehicle of our salvation is by and through our faith. The power of God ONLY works through our faith. If you have it, you have God, if you don't, you don't have God. I Pet 1:3-5.

 

[BornAgain]

It is ironic that the very persons who hold to "eternal security" actually do not know it they are actually being saved.

Since salvation depends totally upon God, and God cannot let them go, they assume that since they believed, they are home free. Yet, when such a person who has been faithful, bore much fruit for most of his life, suddenly rejects God, rejects his relationship with God, we have two options of why this occurred.

The traditional statement that they were not really saved to begin with. If so, then God is playing games with a lot of people.

The only other option is that God rejected them. Making them think they are saved by using them in His Kingdom for a while then discarding them.

Both of these options are unscriptural because the premise is unscriptural. It is based on the false foundation of the theory of predestination. There has never been a doctrine of "eternal security" in scripture. You will find no historical record of such a doctrine until after the reformation and ONLY in reformed theology.

We are in a mutual relationship that is synergistic with God. It is not a unilateral arrangement of some kind. Man is the weak link in the relationship. God is not the one that is fickle and unfaithful or does not hold to His promises. It is man who becomes unfaithful, loses faith, thus loses salvation.

Salvation is a journey of being conformed to His Image, to be made holy, blameless. It is not a one time shot and your in. It is active and ongoing. Scripture is full of examples and warnings not to lose faith.

Why is not losing faith so important? Because the vehicle of our salvation is by and through our faith. The power of God ONLY works through our faith. If you have it, you have God, if you don't, you don't have God. I Pet 1:3-5.

One question...do you believe that God predestined us to heaven or hell?

 

[Eventide]

If you have it, you have God, if you don't, you don't have God. I Pet 1:3-5.

That's because faith is a gift of God and a fruit of His Spirit... and if any man has not the SPIRIT of Christ, he is none of HIS.

 

[BornAgain]

That's because faith is a gift of God and a fruit of His Spirit... and if any man has not the SPIRIT of Christ, he is none of HIS.

How do you get faith?

 

[farouk]

F, what do you mean by genuine faith here? What do you mean that it is permanent?

The Lord Jesus in the Parable of the Sower speaks of those 'who for a while believe', who 'have no root'. (Luke 8.13)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The point is that it's not permanent, genuine faith that is in question there.

The verse say they believed. Then they fell away. They had to have a salvic belief for them to fall away for again, one who never was never a believer has always been fallen and cannot fall away.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

There's a world of difference between being alive in the first Adam and alive in Christ, the Last Adam.. isn't that painfully obvious E ?

YOu have said one cannot be saved twice, yet how do you explain that the prodigal was alive again? He had to be alive before, then died then alive again proving your theory false.

Then we'll simply need to disagree.. imo it's once again painfully obvious what Heb 6 is speaking of.. and imo what you're saying aint it !

And I could understand trying to defend something like that if your assembly constantly sacrifices Christ again and again.. you wouldn't really have a choice in the matter would you ?

---Heb 6 is clearly speaking of those who are in a saved position but fall away.

---you have not explained why Simon was commanded by Peter to repent if that were impossible for Simon to do.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

YOu have said one cannot be saved twice, yet how do you explain that the prodigal was alive again? He had to be alive before, then died then alive again proving your theory false.

Then keep on sacrificing Christ over and over again E.. again, you don't have a choice to believe otherwise because your one true church says so.. I understand that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The traditional statement that they were not really saved to begin with. If so, then God is playing games with a lot of people.

A problem eternal securists have is, for example, I have been told that Simon in Acts 8, that since Simon sinned by trying to buy the power of the Holy Ghost, then that would prove he was supposedly never saved to begin with. If simply committing a sin proves one is not saved to begin with, then when eternal securists sin (and all they all do) their sinning would prove they were never saved to begin with. True with Simon true, with eternal securists.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Saved ONCE...

Then keep on sacrificing Christ over and over again E.. again, you don't have a choice to believe otherwise because your one true church says so.. I understand that.

This does not explain how the prodigal could be alive again or how Simon could repent when you say that it would be impossible for him to do so.

Again from Heb 6 the verbs crucify and put are in the present tense and as long as one remian in a present tense state it will be impossible for them to repent. But if one quit crucifying Christ and quit putting him to shame they would be able to come to repent.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Saved ONCE...

This does not explain how the prodigal could be alive again or how Simon could repent when you say that it would be impossible for him to do so.

Again from Heb 6 the verbs crucify and put are in the present tense and as long as one remian in a present tense state it will be impossible for them to repent. But if one quit crucifying Christ and quit putting him to shame they would be able to come to repent.

I'm sure that's what they're telling you E so that they can constantly sacrifice Christ over and over and over and over and over and over and over..

Sounds like a license to sin imo.. don't worry about a thing, we'll even provide for you to indulge in your flesh.. and come Sunday morn we'll just sacrifice Christ again..

I've had enough of this conversation.. all you're interested in imo is your catholic dogma.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: Saved ONCE...

This does not explain how the prodigal could be alive again or how Simon could repent when you say that it would be impossible for him to do so.

It depends how this very real example is understood.

You could interpret Simon's "belief" as a recognition of the fact that Philip's power was real. If that's all that's meant, then Simon's belief was not to salvation in the first place.

Or you could interpret Simon's belief as real, and that he truly relied on Christ Jesus. In that case Simon's thought was that the spiritual world worked much as his sorcery did, which was itself a sinful thing, subject to death. However, Peter's condemnation did not result in Simon's immediate death, leading to the conclusion that he was immediately repentant of his sin.

Physical death is one thing; but spiritual death is another. The indications to me are that either would be legitimate to consider for Simon; but the fact that Simon didn't die right then & there leads me to conclude that Simon is a believer.

To think Simon the Sorcerer lost his salvation, repented, and then returns to Christianity, that just doesn't seem tenable to me. If we lost our salvation every time we sinned, no one could give us statements of assurance similar to Romans 8:30-39

Again from Heb 6 the verbs crucify and put are in the present tense and as long as one remian in a present tense state it will be impossible for them to repent. But if one quit crucifying Christ and quit putting him to shame they would be able to come to repent.

um, the "falls away" is aorist, generally either past or any action that qualifies. As it's the condition of not being restored, it would be difficult to assert what you're asserting for this passage.

 

[Danus]

I started making a few notes this morning at the office when I first read this thread. I'm glad to see it's grown as much as it has.

I'd like to address the title; "The False Security of Eternal Security." False?


It's interesting to me how some don't see their salvation as much. It's as if it's hardly there, if at all, or the power of God. I think if anyone feels they are not saved, or not sure, or might be, but don't know, or feel they've lost it; They should question their salvation. Question it hard.

I have to wonder what type of faith it is that does not believe, or can't believe, in what God says, or the promises he's made. Not picking on anyone, Not pointing fingers. Doubt is an issue. I understand that.

Personally, I would not call that faith at all. I would not even call that a small faith, because I started with a small faith. I think all anyone needs is a small faith. In fact, Christ eluded to this several times. In Matthew 17:20; (NIV) 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”. Notice how Christ points out a small faith then talks about having a small faith. he's pointing out a real small faith vs a man made small faith.

We see it again in Luke 17:6; (NIV); 6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you."

I have never literally dug up a stump, or moved a mound of dirt with my faith, but that's OK, because I totally get what Jesus means by faith as small as a mustard seed. He said this to illustrate the power that faith from God has in us. I understand that. I understand that because I understand my faith. I understand what it was to have none, and how powerful and irresistible it is to have just that little bit.

When I was a kid forced to attend UMYF camp (United Methodist Youth Fellowship), our councilors would lead everyone in singing this familiar song; "It only takes a spark", .......... to get a fire going." Anyone remember that one? ugg. Being kids, we'd change the words sometimes. However, I look back on that, and the moment I received my faith, I completely understood what that song meant. I love that song. It's true, and what a perfect illustration of what faith is. It is like a spark that gets a fire going.

I knew in a moment that my own salvation is a done deal, and that there was no turning back. That state of saved, that moment of understanding and revelation, is irresistible and there is no going back. I knew it based on the known nature of man, which I clearly see in myself, and the clear promises of God that are replete throughout the bible.

Although the Calvin view of eternal security is "described " in the last letter of the TULIP acronym, the understanding of eternal security is emanated throughout the full understanding of faith, grace, mercy and such.

The P in TULIP stands for the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. In line with the totality of the reformed theology and its focus on God’s sovereign actions, this would perhaps be better entitled Perseverance of the Lord since it is He who keeps the believer until their moment of glory. A believer may backslide and sin but this view states that the believer cannot fall away completely from grace of God, and they will persevere until the end and be saved.

Eternal security in Calvin’s theology must be understood in the context of the entire framework, as all of the points are logically connected. The elect (the only humans who God chooses to redeem) will be the recipients of the persevering power introduced by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. These believers will be kept in the power of the Spirit and are eternally secure. Calvin words it this way:

"God, who is rich in mercy, from his immutable purpose of election, does not wholly take away his Holy Spirit from his own, even in lamentable falls; nor does he so permit them to glide down that they should fall from the grace of adoption and the state of justification; or commit the “sin unto death,” or against the Holy Spirit; that, being deserted by him, they should cast themselves headlong into eternal destruction. So that not by their own merits or strength, but by the gratuitous mercy of God, they obtain it, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace, nor finally continue in their paths and perish."

We can call this Calvin if you guys want, but this is a principal of the good news. This is biblical truth and many scriptures speak to the eternal salvation of the believer, those with real faith from God, not from themselves.

read it for yourselves, The unbroken chain of salvation found in Romans 8:29-39. John 10:27-29. Romans 8:38-39. Ephesians 1:3-14. 1 Peter 1:3-5, Philippians 1:6, Hebrews 7:25, ....when we are saved, we are given faith to know believe and to know we are saved, and anyone who ask God with an open heart can know they are saved, be saved, and have salvation, and the security that that will never be taken away. It is life changing.

Anyone trying to improve themselves through Christianity, well good luck to you, but if you are seeking a new you in God, a you purchased by Christ, a real relationship with the one who loves you, that can easily be had simply bu giving up your efforts and asking for the faith in Christ we are to have to be saved.

It is not what you are doing, or have done. It is about what God can do, is doing and have done for you.

 

[Danus]

How do you get faith?

You ask for it. You Put down your own will. Your own attempts to believe for the sake of believing, and ask God for his will for you. He gives us the faith we need, and that moment begins a relationship with the one who truly Loves us as we are, who truly knows us as we are, who made us. Through Him we are saved, and changed by his will.

 

[Webb]

How do you get faith? Get it the Bible way: "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Rom.10:17.

 

[heymikey80]

1 John 5:1 -- Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God

Gal 5:22 -- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith

Rom 2:29 -- But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

 

[Webb]

What proposition do the above verses prove?

 

[rrowell]

You ask for it. You Put down your own will. Your own attempts to believe for the sake of believing, and ask God for his will for you. He gives us the faith we need, and that moment begins a relationship with the one who truly Loves us as we are, who truly knows us as we are, who made us. Through Him we are saved, and changed by his will.

You did not answer the question, how did YOU get your faith? how did YOU know to put down your will, how did YOU know to ask God for anything?