The fate of the unsaved

[jeff77]

I reckon from your reply that you do not think those such as Elias and Moses that appeared with Jesus on the mount realize they are of God until the judgment? Being that the judgment occurs after the millennium that would seriously put a hitch in the get-a-long of them with Jesus of Rev 5:9 singing "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" which is prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.

In Php 4:3 Paul said that certain saints's names were already written in the book of life. "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

My thoughts.

So there are events and stories that are told out of chronological order in the Bible. I have heard people say that part of the meaning of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to give an example of what hell is like. I know the story takes place before the judgment but since there are other stories/events like Elias and Moses appearing with Jesus on the mount. I am guessing that this could show that the time frame problem with Lazarus and the rich man does not necessarily disqualify it from being used in this way.

 

[Eugene]

So there are events and stories that are told out of chronological order in the Bible. I have heard people say that part of the meaning of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is to give an example of what hell is like. I know the story takes place before the judgment but since there are other stories/events like Elias and Moses appearing with Jesus on the mount. I am guessing that this could show that the time frame problem with Lazarus and the rich man does not necessarily disqualify it from being used in this way.

Hi Brother Jeff, there are many things I haven't put all together in all their allegories as to time frames, and some seem to expound different doctrines. In this example of Lazarus and the rich man it certainly is pre-church era in my opinion because Jesus had not died making heaven open to them. If you know of a particular scripture or thought as to being out of chronological order, I am interested in hearing it. Thanks for the response.

 

[turnorburn]

The teacher that taught you Timothy does he/she believe that the devil will not be punished eternally.. or just humans?

tob

 

[TimothyW]

The teacher that taught you Timothy does he/she believe that the devil will not be punished eternally.. or just humans?

tob

The teacher that taught me?
What do you mean?
I believe what the Bible says.

Stop trying to twist things around.
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Read Romans 6:23
Read John 3:16, it says that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will not PERISH, but will have eternal life.

Your little word games will not convince me that death means eternal life in hell being tortured by God.

 

[turnorburn]

What happens to the devil is he annihilated as well..

tob

 

[gr8grace3]

Eph 4:11-13~~ And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all attain to the unity of the ...

The gift of PT(Pastor teacher) is a “hyphenated gift” because one definite article serves both “pastors” and “teachers”, while the conjunction “and” acts as a hyphen. (Two words are employed, but only one thing or idea is intended. This is called a “hendiadus”. In fact, the second noun is to be understood as an adjective of the superlative degree, meaning “teaching Pastors”).

Even pastor teachers have a Pastor teacher......Timothy and Titus.Timothy would have been in shambles if it were not for Paul, his pastor teacher. God has ordained other men with the Gift of Pastor teacher to equip the saints. If one has not humbled himself to a pastor teacher(Timothy)one could arrive to any number of nonsense doctrines.

 

[TimothyW]

What happens to the devil is he annihilated as well..

tob

This thread is not about the devil. But since you brought him up, wasn't it the devil who said "Surely you will not die"?
And according to the doctrine of eternal torment, doesn't everyone live forever? Just like the devil claimed? Are youse guys claiming the devil is right?

I believe what the Bible says.
We are not devils, if the devil lives forever what is that to me?
Humans can only receive immortality by faith in Jesus Christ.
I don't know what will happen to the devil. I suspect he will be destroyed along with every evil thing.
What does the Bible say? I agree with the Bible. This means that I probably will be disagreeing with you.

 

[TimothyW]

Eph 4:11-13~~ And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all attain to the unity of the ...

The gift of PT(Pastor teacher) is a “hyphenated gift” because one definite article serves both “pastors” and “teachers”, while the conjunction “and” acts as a hyphen. (Two words are employed, but only one thing or idea is intended. This is called a “hendiadus”. In fact, the second noun is to be understood as an adjective of the superlative degree, meaning “teaching Pastors”).

Even pastor teachers have a Pastor teacher......Timothy and Titus.Timothy would have been in shambles if it were not for Paul, his pastor teacher. God has ordained other men with the Gift of Pastor teacher to equip the saints. If one has not humbled himself to a pastor teacher(Timothy)one could arrive to any number of nonsense doctrines.

I don't believe that the Bible is a "nonsense doctrine". I believe that the Bible is true. I believe that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a nonsense doctrine because it contradicts what the Bible says. Are you claiming that I should just believe whatever my pastor says? Have you ever heard of Jim Jones? Line up with the rest of the faithful followers and drink the Kool-Aid. It's good for you. As for me, I will believe what God's Word says, not a man's word.

 

[Eugene]

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is toward all which believe; not some far off thing.

1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

This too is not at the great white throne judgment, it is ongoing as we walk in Christ, and it is our spirituality being judged beginning and carried through this age of the church written of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. When we see Jesus our reward, the result of His judgment will be with Him.

 

[gr8grace3]

I don't believe that the Bible is a "nonsense doctrine". I believe that the Bible is true. I believe that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a nonsense doctrine because it contradicts what the Bible says. Are you claiming that I should just believe whatever my pastor says? Have you ever heard of Jim Jones? Line up with the rest of the faithful followers and drink the Kool-Aid. It's good for you. As for me, I will believe what God's Word says, not a man's word.

Its our choice Timothy. The bible says that God has ordained some men to be pastor teachers. We have to discern who they are.

I am sure there are some who believe what you do and some that believe what I do. If they truly are called men, I am sure God will eventually get them to a place were they are for the most part teaching true doctrine.

It took me a long time to find my right Pastor teacher and when I did He helped me with doctrines that I had messed up and still is. He helped me ,he actually showed me how to study and asked me to prove him wrong with the very tools and information he gave me.

 

[jeff77]

This thread is not about the devil. But since you brought him up, wasn't it the devil who said "Surely you will not die"?
And according to the doctrine of eternal torment, doesn't everyone live forever? Just like the devil claimed? Are youse guys claiming the devil is right?

I believe what the Bible says.
We are not devils, if the devil lives forever what is that to me?
Humans can only receive immortality by faith in Jesus Christ.
I don't know what will happen to the devil. I suspect he will be destroyed along with every evil thing.
What does the Bible say? I agree with the Bible. This means that I probably will be disagreeing with you.

Timothy I thought the Devil was talking about Adam/Eve dying the first death and at the time they were immortal so
basically the Devil was lying by telling them they could eat the fruit and still live forever in the garden of Eden. I don't think the devil was talking about the 2nd death.

 

[turnorburn]

Jim Jones was under orders Timothy..

tob

 

[gr8grace3]

I don't believe that the Bible is a "nonsense doctrine". I believe that the Bible is true. I believe that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a nonsense doctrine because it contradicts what the Bible says. Are you claiming that I should just believe whatever my pastor says? Have you ever heard of Jim Jones? Line up with the rest of the faithful followers and drink the Kool-Aid. It's good for you. As for me, I will believe what God's Word says, not a man's word.

Just making sure you know this. I put (Timothy) as the Timothy of the bible. I reread that and that looked bad. sorry.

If you believe the bible and believe its true. Then you are disobeying Gods word if you do not have a pastor teacher. He has ordained certain men with the Gift of teaching.

 

[TimothyW]

Just making sure you know this. I put (Timothy) as the Timothy of the bible. I reread that and that looked bad. sorry.

If you believe the bible and believe its true. Then you are disobeying Gods word if you do not have a pastor teacher. He has ordained certain men with the Gift of teaching.

I'm sorry that I misunderstood and took offense. Thank you for clarifying.

I go to a Baptist Church, and I have a "Pastor-Teacher" there. We are also great friends, and we have a lot of interests in common. We both ride motorcycles, play guitars, we run, we work out in the gym, lifting weights, canoeing, kayaking, camping, bible study of course. Most of these we do separately, but it's nice to have something in common with a Christian Brother. He still believes the traditional view of Hell, and he knows that I believe that the penalty for sin is death. He knows why I believe what I believe, because we have discussed this. We are each praying for each other. The thing about what you said though, is this. My "Pastor-Teacher" would NOT want me to just accept what he says, unless it is also what Scripture says. He is humble enough to know that he doesn't have all the answers. Everything he says that agrees with scripture, I fully accept. I don't know why he doesn't give up the doctrine of eternal torment, but that isn't as important to me as both of us following Jesus Christ.

God calls some to be pastors, some teachers, etc. but we are all equal before God. There is no difference between Jew or Gentile, Pastor or Layman, we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. There is no hierarchy. I can't say to Jesus, "I'm saved, because I followed Pastor Smith, and he knows you". (My uncle is Pastor Smith, but I just used "Smith" as a generic last name)

Don't get freaked out because I believe that the wages of sin is death instead of eternal torment in hell. The only reason I believe this is because that's what the Bible says. It doesn't mean that I'm rebellious, or I don't submit myself to God or some pastor. I submit myself to God, and that's why I believe His Word which says directly "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". I believe there is only eternal life in Christ, and nowhere else. Not even in Hell being tortured alive forever after you are dead.

 

[WIP]

He is humble enough to know that he doesn't have all the answers. Everything he says that agrees with scripture, I fully accept. I don't know why he doesn't give up the doctrine of..., but that isn't as important to me as both of us following Jesus Christ.

I don't know why I'm feel compelled to ask this question but here goes. Do you suppose he has similar thoughts about you?

 

[TimothyW]

I don't know why I'm feel compelled to ask this question but here goes. Do you suppose he has similar thoughts about you?

Absolutely.

But I can't understand why ANYONE would choose to believe a doctrine that has NO Scriptural support, and that also makes God look bad.
The doctrine I believe is true has tons of scriptural support.

There actually isn't any verse in the Bible that says that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented forever. If this doctrine is true, it always has to extrapolated out from verses that don't actually say that.
But there are a lot of verses that directly say that the lost will be destroyed, that the lost will perish, that they will be burnt up and nothing will be left of them. These verses need to be explained away in order to believe the doctrine that isn't found in the Bible, Eternal Tormentism. So what's the point of that? That's why I can say in good conscience, "I don't know why he doesn't give up the doctrine of eternal torment." I honestly don't understand why someone would torture the scriptures in order to believe a doctrine that shames God.

 

[gr8grace3]

Absolutely.

But I can't understand why ANYONE would choose to believe a doctrine that has NO Scriptural support, and that also makes God look bad.
The doctrine I believe is true has tons of scriptural support.

There actually isn't any verse in the Bible that says that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented forever. If this doctrine is true, it always has to extrapolated out from verses that don't actually say that.
But there are a lot of verses that directly say that the lost will be destroyed, that the lost will perish, that they will be burnt up and nothing will be left of them. These verses need to be explained away in order to believe the doctrine that isn't found in the Bible, Eternal Tormentism. So what's the point of that? That's why I can say in good conscience, "I don't know why he doesn't give up the doctrine of eternal torment." I honestly don't understand why someone would torture the scriptures in order to believe a doctrine that shames God.

Timothy,
If this doctrine shames God. It is vitally important to discuss what happens to Satan and the Fallen Angels.

What does the scripture say about Satans fate?

Rev 20:10~~And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan is a created being by God, with volition. And the Scripture is even more clear that he is tormented day and night forever and ever.

There is a lot of scriptural support for this doctrine......Since satan is a created being by God and has volition, does it shame God to believe that satan will be tormented forever?

I would like to go a little further with you on satans fate and what you believe about his ultimate fate.

We have a harder time just dismissing satan as something just "symbolic" of something else.

To be honest it is hard to bring up satan with people in your position, Because satan and his fate is clearer in scripture than humans and satan is a created being with volition. And He clearly is tormented forever.

So we have a created being by God with personal volition that is in torment day and night forever and ever. Does this shame God?

 

[TimothyW]

Timothy,
If this doctrine shames God. It is vitally important to discuss what happens to Satan and the Fallen Angels.

What does the scripture say about Satans fate?

Rev 20:10~~And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan is a created being by God, with volition. And the Scripture is even more clear that he is tormented day and night forever and ever.

There is a lot of scriptural support for this doctrine......Since satan is a created being by God and has volition, does it shame God to believe that satan will be tormented forever?

I would like to go a little further with you on satans fate and what you believe about his ultimate fate.

We have a harder time just dismissing satan as something just "symbolic" of something else.

To be honest it is hard to bring up satan with people in your position, Because satan and his fate is clearer in scripture than humans and satan is a created being with volition. And He clearly is tormented forever.

So we have a created being by God with personal volition that is in torment day and night forever and ever. Does this shame God?

I just go by what the Bible says. When John said what he meant by the lake of fire, he said it was the second death. I agree with the writer of Revelation. The lake of fire is the second death. It is not eternal conscious torment. I just believe what the Bible says, and the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. I know that this contradicts the doctrine that the wicked will be tormented forever in hell, but that doesn't really concern me. I just believe what the Bible says. Since John says that the devil's place is in the lake of fire, and John says that the lake of fire is the second death, we can tell that the devil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

I'm sorry that you don't like that I say the doctrine that disagrees with what the Bible says also shames God by saying that He is pro-torture. But rather than argue with me, why not simply accept what the Bible says? Then you won't have a doctrine that shames God, and you will also have a doctrine that agrees with the Bible. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

 

[gr8grace3]

I just go by what the Bible says. When John said what he meant by the lake of fire, he said it was the second death. I agree with the writer of Revelation. The lake of fire is the second death. It is not eternal conscious torment. I just believe what the Bible says, and the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. I know that this contradicts the doctrine that the wicked will be tormented forever in hell, but that doesn't really concern me. I just believe what the Bible says. Since John says that the devil's place is in the lake of fire, and John says that the lake of fire is the second death, we can tell that the devil will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

I'm sorry that you don't like that I say the doctrine that disagrees with what the Bible says also shames God by saying that He is pro-torture. But rather than argue with me, why not simply accept what the Bible says? Then you won't have a doctrine that shames God, and you will also have a doctrine that agrees with the Bible. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Angels can't die.
Luke 20:36~~Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The bible says, also John said, that the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan is a created being with personal volition that John writes will be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire. Does this shame God? In your opinion.

 

[WIP]

Declaring those who disagree with you is analogous to saying God is pro-torture and is misrepresenting other members and a violation of our ToS.

I think this thread and topic has been beat up enough.