The fate of the unsaved

[chessman]

Most do not realize that we must consider the threefold aspect of our eternal disposition as we are not just bodies or just spirits we are body soul and spirit.

So, given: Matthew 10:28 (ESV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is it your position therefore that Jesus wasn’t actually saying anything at all about the ‘spirit’ aspect of a human and thus, their 'spirit' lives on in torment forever yet the body (the resurrected one) and the soul of the lost are destroyed in Hell? I’m just asking if that’s your position.

 

[digging]

If this has been commented on please disregard.

Another question to ask is 'when', when will people really be considered lost to death? If people are already condemned why bother resurrecting them? I think we have misunderstand something for a long time.

47 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Is not every human born under the curse of Adam and thus the wrath of God remains upon them and the ONLY way for someone to come out from under that wrath is to hear the call of the great shepherd? There has been billions whom have lived and died who never got to hear the call even once. How and when will they get to hear the call?

Revelation 22:17 NAS
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come ; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Thus I do believe an unknown number of people will be lost in the end, but there will be a whole lot of saving going on during the 1000's years, more saving than we have ever seen in all these past ages.

Revelation 20:9 NAS
And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Digging

 

[for_his_glory]

Many scriptures depict hell as fire and brimstone burning for eternity, but none of us actually knows what it will look like or feel to be cast there. In my own minds eye I see hell as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in hell are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.


God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.


Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 and he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[digging]

I now wondered about why Jesus referred to some people as 'a sleep' when dead. I believe it's because ALL will be resurrected and that the 2nd death is the 'death' that we are saved from.

John 11:11 NAS
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep ; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."

John 5:24 NAS
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:51 NAS
"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

1 John 3:14 NAS
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Revelation 2:11 NAS
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Revelation 20:6 NAS
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

No one has been judged yet for destruction, but some have been called to righteousness and have come out from under the curse and through faith are now blessed to never enter the 2nd death.
Everyone of the 2nd resurrection during the millennia will have the opportunity to also come to life through Christ and if they do not they will suffer the judgement of the 2nd death based on the choices they make in the future not ones they are making now.

Digging

 

[jeff77]

Many scriptures depict hell as fire and brimstone burning for eternity, but none of us actually knows what it will look like or feel to be cast there. In my own minds eye I see hell as a place where those who have rejected God, whether they be good or bad people, burning in a torment (fire and brimstone could be a metaphor for torment) of having to see those who have heard the call of God and have accepted Him and now live in a place of paradise with all the fullness of God in all His glory. No more tears, no more hurts, pain sickness, etc, etc. Those in hell are outside the realm of God continuing in all their sin, sickness, hurts, pain tears, etc. etc., but can see those who are in the glory of the Lord like looking through a window and wanting what others have, but will never have it and this is their torment for eternity as they are constantly consumed with the fire that burns in their souls for what they have rejected and now to late to receive.


God said that he would that none should perish, but those who have rejected God and His word are those who will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity by their own choice, even if they do not believe in Heaven or Hell, we believe because we know that Gods word is truth and does not come back void in our lives.


Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Rev 21:6 and he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I think it's possible that the fire is metaphorical. I heard a sermon one time where the preacher said that the Bible uses fire as a metaphor to describe hell because that is the worst type of earthly thing that it can be compared to that humans can understand and that whatever the "fire" is really referring to could actually be much worse.

A question for the non-ECT believers I have is would a metaphorical fire change anything about the condition of the unsaved after they are thrown into the lake of fire since they wouldn't really be burned up?

 

[TimothyW]

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hi FHG, how are you doing?

I really wanted to leave this discussion, as it seems to make people angry. But I just have to ask, in this verse (Hosea 4:6) which says that people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, why do you consider that proof that the lost go to the lake of fire where they are never destroyed? It seems this verse is better proof that people are destroyed, than it is proof that they are not destroyed. I'm just wondering what made you select this particular verse? I could see using it for the side that says the lost are destroyed, and I could see your side skipping over this verse, but why point it out, as if it proved that the lost are not destroyed? It says the opposite.

 

[chessman]

A question for the non-ECT believers I have is would a metaphorical fire change anything about the condition of the unsaved after they are thrown into the lake of fire since they wouldn't really be burned up?

I think this is an excellent question; “would a metaphorical fire change anything…”? Yes, in my opinion, it would change a lot about the actual example that Sodom and Gomorrah are, Scripturally speaking, concerning the punishment/condition that the lost will receive were we to interpret what the Bible means by the ‘eternal fire’ to be one that was so metaphorical that it didn’t actually consume the lost. What is the ‘condition’ of Sodom/Gomorrah today?

2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.​

Therefore, an even better question is, in my opinion; wouldn’t a metaphorical fire that didn’t ever burn up (consume) whatever is thrown into it go against the many examples in Scripture that teach us what the effects of this fire is like? Here’s just a few examples:

1) This fire turn Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) and is used as an example of what it will do to the lost.
2) Lost people’s punishment (Jude 1:7) = what happened to Sodom (turned to ashes).
3) The Lord of host’s salvation of the saved (the survivors). What exactly is it that the survivors ‘survive’? What is the destiny/punishment of the lost that is vividly described/exampled for us in Isaiah, 2 Peter, Jude and even elsewhere (including Rev) through the several descriptions of this “eternal fire” effect on the lost:

a. Is 1:9-10 If the LORD of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah!
b. “devours the stubble”​

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

c. A ‘metaphoric Hell fire’ = one that doesn’t actually consume, makes zero sense of: Isaiah 29:6 you will be visited by the Lord of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire.
d. Some defending ECT have made the point that the lost people have to still be alive to kindle the ‘eternal fire’ of Hell. That’s in error according to Isaiah 30:33​

For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it. Note what kindles this Hell fire is the breath of the Lord (not dead flesh).

e. Some have defended ECT by suggesting that destruction of the lost is not as ‘fearful’ as ECT would be. I reject that argument because of passages like:​

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless:
“Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”
And
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
And
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

I am reserving my vote on this thread for a little while longer. Hoping for some Biblical evidence and looking over the evidence presented so far. I certainly cannot vote for option 1 since the OP asked for Scriptures that support our votes. Frankly, I don’t know of any that support Option 1 but still waiting.

 

[JohnD]

So, given: Matthew 10:28 (ESV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is it your position therefore that Jesus wasn’t actually saying anything at all about the ‘spirit’ aspect of a human and thus, their 'spirit' lives on in torment forever yet the body (the resurrected one) and the soul of the lost are destroyed in Hell? I’m just asking if that’s your position.

It does say destroy the body (therefore) the soul and no mention of the spirit being destroyed... fits perfectly don't you agree?

 

[JohnD]

I think this is an excellent question; “would a metaphorical fire change anything…”? Yes, in my opinion, it would change a lot about the actual example that Sodom and Gomorrah are, Scripturally speaking, concerning the punishment/condition that the lost will receive were we to interpret what the Bible means by the ‘eternal fire’ to be one that was so metaphorical that it didn’t actually consume the lost. What is the ‘condition’ of Sodom/Gomorrah today?

2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.​

Therefore, an even better question is, in my opinion; wouldn’t a metaphorical fire that didn’t ever burn up (consume) whatever is thrown into it go against the many examples in Scripture that teach us what the effects of this fire is like? Here’s just a few examples:

1) This fire turn Sodom into “ashes” (2 Peter 2:6) and is used as an example of what it will do to the lost.
2) Lost people’s punishment (Jude 1:7) = what happened to Sodom (turned to ashes).
3) The Lord of host’s salvation of the saved (the survivors). What exactly is it that the survivors ‘survive’? What is the destiny/punishment of the lost that is vividly described/exampled for us in Isaiah, 2 Peter, Jude and even elsewhere (including Rev) through the several descriptions of this “eternal fire” effect on the lost:

a. Is 1:9-10 If the LORD of hosts had not left us a few survivors, we should have been like Sodom, and become like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah!
b. “devours the stubble”​

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

c. A ‘metaphoric Hell fire’ = one that doesn’t actually consume, makes zero sense of: Isaiah 29:6 you will be visited by the Lord of hosts with thunder and with earthquake and great noise, with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire.
d. Some defending ECT have made the point that the lost people have to still be alive to kindle the ‘eternal fire’ of Hell. That’s in error according to Isaiah 30:33​

For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of sulfur, kindles it. Note what kindles this Hell fire is the breath of the Lord (not dead flesh).

e. Some have defended ECT by suggesting that destruction of the lost is not as ‘fearful’ as ECT would be. I reject that argument because of passages like:​

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless:
“Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?”
And
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
And
Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

I am reserving my vote on this thread for a little while longer. Hoping for some Biblical evidence and looking over the evidence presented so far. I certainly cannot vote for option 1 since the OP asked for Scriptures that support our votes. Frankly, I don’t know of any that support Option 1 but still waiting.

And a literal fire would destroy all that physically exists (like the body and therefore the soul would cease to exist).

Also... do not be so quick to alienate the spiritual from the physical...

Take the account of the Rich man and Lazarus.

The bodies of all of them were in tombs. So what are they in the passage? Disembodied spirits.

Notice the physical traits of all.

Thirst, sight, speech, finger, tongue...

Anthropomorphisms one and all?

OR...

is there a similarity in the spirit realm to the physical?

Why presume spirits are just floating clouds of intelligence or wills of the wisp?

Point to where in your body your spirit is and where it isn't.

How do you know or where is it written that your spirit is not an exact replica of your body...?

 

[TimothyW]

It seems a little misleading if someone says "The body and soul can be destroyed", without saying that there is another part that can't be destroyed. Why wouldn't Jesus tell us to fear the one who can destroy both Body and Soul in Gehenna - AND REALLY FEAR the one who can torment the Spirit forever in Gehenna? Jesus' statement doesn't indicate that the Spirit will be tormented alive forever in Hell. Argument from silence? It says the body and soul can be destroyed. I think Jesus is saying that is complete destruction, given the other verses where Jesus teaches on this topic (chaff burnt up, etc).

 

[JohnD]

It seems a little misleading... to you.

Timothy, most of the Bible is written with the idea in mind that the whole of scripture must be taken into consideration.
Not just bits and pieces.

For example:

Matthew 12:39-40 (KJV)
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Does this text tell you that Jesus (body soul spirit ) will be in the heart of the earth 3 days 3 nights or what?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG, how are you doing?

I really wanted to leave this discussion, as it seems to make people angry. But I just have to ask, in this verse (Hosea 4:6) which says that people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, why do you consider that proof that the lost go to the lake of fire where they are never destroyed? It seems this verse is better proof that people are destroyed, than it is proof that they are not destroyed. I'm just wondering what made you select this particular verse? I could see using it for the side that says the lost are destroyed, and I could see your side skipping over this verse, but why point it out, as if it proved that the lost are not destroyed? It says the opposite.

Hi Timothy,
When people reject the knowledge that God is real and choose to reject His existence and His Son Christ Jesus then what else would it mean other than they will be cast into Hell, lake of fire or the other many descriptions that are mentioned in the Bible. Destroyed also has many meanings, which one of them being devastated. Let me use it in a sentence. I was devastated (destroyed) because I rejected that Jesus existed and now it is to late for me as the end has come and God has cast me out into the lake of fire (misery) for eternity. I hope that makes sense. No one truly knows what Hell will actually look like, but just by the many descriptions it would not be a very pleasing place to be for eternity. Just as we go to be with the Father for eternity living in paradise with His Son Jesus the same is with those who have rejected Jesus that they spend an eternity in torment separated from God forever.

 

[farouk]

I think we need to rest in what Scripture says, however inconvenient and 'unpleasant' it may seem to be, but we may be sure also that God's gracious purpose for blessing His people who love and trust His Son and His finished work at the Cross for sinners, is proceeding according to Divine plan.

Blessings.

 

[TimothyW]

It seems a little misleading... to you.

Timothy, most of the Bible is written with the idea in mind that the whole of scripture must be taken into consideration.
Not just bits and pieces.

For example:

Matthew 12:39-40 (KJV)
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Does this text tell you that Jesus (body soul spirit ) will be in the heart of the earth 3 days 3 nights or what?

It says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. I take this to mean the grave, considering that the Son of Man was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. Of course, this says nothing at all about Body, Soul, and Spirit.

If you take the Bible as a whole, you don't come up with The Body goes one place, the Soul goes another place, and the Spirit goes to a third place. The bible simply doesn't say that. This is why I don't want to discuss this anymore. I believe exactly what the Bible says. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" and "Whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". But inevitably I am told that if I believe precisely, exactly what these and other verses say, then I am taking the Bible in "bits and pieces". Well, I call your bluff. I've pored through the Bible, I've read it cover to cover, many times. I read the Bible every day. I HAVE taken the "whole of scripture" into consideration, and it absolutely does NOT say that bad people go to Hell when they die where they live forever being tormented. But it absolutely DOES SAY over and over that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, they will die, they will pay the penalty of death, and they will not inherit eternal life. But no matter how much scripture I give you supporting the doctrine that the wicked perish instead of having eternal life in Hell being tortured, you will not accept it. So why should I discuss this anymore? If you won't accept the plain language of the Bible (John 3:16 either perish OR have eternal life, among hundreds of others verses I could cite) then you won't believe me either.

Which brings up an different question. If we aren't going to believe what we read in the Bible if that disagrees with our traditions, why read the Bible at all?
Why not just stick with our traditions and not bother with Bible reading at all? Tradition dictates that the wages of sin is to be tormented alive in Hell forever. Why read in the Bible that the wages of sin is death, and then believe that the wages of sin is eternal torment in Hell? Why not just believe that the wages of sin is eternal torment, and skip the part where you read (and then ignore) the Bible?

 

[TimothyW]

I think we need to rest in what Scripture says, however inconvenient and 'unpleasant' it may seem to be, but we may be sure also that God's gracious purpose for blessing His people who love and trust His Son and His finished work at the Cross for sinners, is proceeding according to Divine plan.

Blessings.

Agreed.
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

We should just believe what that says, however inconvenient and unpleasant it may seem to be to some who are married to a different doctrine.
It is God's plan that we do not have to pay the wages of sin which is death, ourselves. Jesus Christ paid the debt of death that we owe for our sins by dying on the cross and rising from the grave 3 days later.
It isn't a mere coincidence that the price Jesus paid (death) is the same as the penalty we owe (death).

 

[for_his_glory]

This is a little lengthy only because I have quoted full scripture. I pray it might explain some things.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.


2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:


Being naked in Revelation 16:15 and the thief means that if we are not prepared for the return of Christ as not being clothed in Gods righteousness and think we have plenty of time before Christ returns we are only fooling ourselves as no one knows the hour or day of Christ return and further more we are not even promised the next second of breath.


Jesus has never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only that breath of God that returns back to Him when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory.


Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the breath is withdrawn we simply have a dead (or sleeping) soul not an entity that is conscious anywhere.


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/soul returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Our soul can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment at the end of time.


1Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".


Revelation 22:

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus only comes once and at that time will bring His reward to those of the first resurrected who are made righteous by that of Gods grace. The second resurrection are those who have rejected Gods grace and their reward is that of an eternity in the lake of fire. 1Corinthians Chapter 15; Revelation 20:6, 15.

 

[TimothyW]

You say our soul can never die. Really? What verse says the Soul can never die? As I said, I have pored through the Bible looking for answers to this topic. Why do you say the Soul can't die? According the Bible, not only CAN the soul die, but the soul who sins SHALL die. Read Ezekiel 18:4. But I know right now that it won't make the slightest bit of difference to you that the Bible says "The soul who sins shall die". No, you believe that the soul can't die, and that's that.

IF the soul can't die, why does Jesus say in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear the one who can destroy the soul? If the soul can't be destroyed, no fear is necessary. Also, If you are correct and the soul can't be destroyed, then Jesus Christ was wrong to say the soul can be destroyed. Are you correct? Or is Jesus Christ correct? But I know that this won't make any difference to you. Jesus must mean something else, he couldn't have meant that the souls of the wicked will be destroyed, because that would go against the beloved doctrine of eternal torment. If our enemies aren't tormented forever, what good is Christianity, eh?

Nothing you posted even says that the wicked go to Hell when they die where they are conscious of torment forever.

What does John 3:16 say? I want you to tell me (even if you don't believe it) what John 3:16 says the two possible outcomes are: Whoever believes in Him shall not ________but will have _______ _________.

 

[TimothyW]

Forget it. I don't want to argue anymore.

I believe what the Bible says. Period.

 

[digging]

TimothyW you have made some very good points and I agree with you about the soul, yes it can die because everlasting life is a GIFT given only to the blessed, as well the two worked immortal soul do not occur together in the bible.

Digging

 

[jeff77]

I have heard several pastors recently talk about the story of Lazarus and the rich man to describe the afterlife. I know that the story takes place before the resurrection and judgment but is it still possible that the story is intended to give us an example of hell even though it is out chronological order?