The Fate of Unbelieving Children

[Deborah13]

Dear Sister Deborah13, I'll attempt to answer just this part of your question at this point. Men had partook of the tree of knowledge, and Abel even knew the correct sacrifice to offer; his offering was acceptable and Cain's wasn't.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee (Only?) have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Like the door of the ark closed after them, Jesus is that door to Noah, and God shut him in Gen 7:16. There is only access to our Father in Christ, and we read in Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, as the waters rose were there some outside the ark that repented? It seems as there might have been. Just as in the end times, Rom 10:13, Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved. Remember where we first read this in Gen 4:26 . . then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

1Pe 3:19 By which also He (Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

God is always faithful to those who believe even as to the thief (Though repentful he still died – so did those when the waters rose), and as He says in Heb 13:5 . . I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I’m sorry if I’ve taken the context of the OP to include examples of the end times, but it’s hard not to when we read in 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. In other words, if we don’t take into account the allegories presented to us in Genesis as pertaining to our walk with Christ we lose the very purpose of the things they encountered.
Some of these ideas taken from “Lessons in Genesis” presented by M. Bodie.

As usual I agree with you and you explained very well the OP.

Adam was held accountable for his sin, when there was only One law given to man from God.
God made a temporary atonement Himself for Adam's sin and teaching Adam about sacrifice and offering.

imo
So I don't see how people could think that God would judge man without giving man moral laws to live by, that is not just. But Romans 2 tells me God did give man moral laws and therefore He is very just in His judging.
When Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he knew right then the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.

However, he was an adult and fulling capable of understanding, children grow into this understanding.

 

[Deborah13]

There were apparently some requirements before the Law, otherwise Cain's sacrifice would have been accepted. BUT there were no laws that requiring adherence which would be considered SIN. In other words, there were no SINNERS before the Law.

As far as those who perished in the flood, I am not talking about adults. I'm talking about infants. All infants below the age of accountability world be "saved".

The account of the flood is very interesting, Without any law, the people who lived at that time were ALL WICKED. No Law, NO GOOD PEOPLE, except Noah. It says "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"....Job? He was "blameless and upright". So whatever requirements that God had with those people before the Law, Abraham, Noah, Job and others pleased the Lord.

Remember Deb, I am talking about infants!

Thanks for your response.
I was confused because you brought the Law of Moses' into it and I couldn't see how that had anything to do with children before Moses or after Moses.

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for your response.
I was confused because you brought the Law of Moses' into it and I couldn't see how that had anything to do with children before Moses or after Moses.

I'm very sorry that you got a little confused over my presentation. The period of 1,500 years between Adam and Moses is crucial to understanding the period of time that sin was not being recorded....You see, I got sick and tired of Pastors and Apologists quoting passages in the Gospels like "suffer the children to come unto me" and speaking about children, Jesus said "such is the Kingdom of God". Those certainly are good Scriptures, but are in no way an answer to an infant's death and eternal abode. So I had to study until I came up with an absolute Biblical answer.

If you still have questions, please ask, because this presentation is most important for a huge population of folk who have no idea what happens to their beautiful baby that died early in life, OR, an aborted infant.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm very sorry that you got a little confused over my presentation. The period of 1,500 years between Adam and Moses is crucial to understanding the period of time that sin was not being recorded....You see, I got sick and tired of Pastors and Apologists quoting passages in the Gospels like "suffer the children to come unto me" and speaking about children, Jesus said "such is the Kingdom of God". Those certainly are good Scriptures, but are in no way an answer to an infant's death and eternal abode. So I had to study until I came up with an absolute Biblical answer.

If you still have questions, please ask, because this presentation is most important for a huge population of folk who have no idea what happens to their beautiful baby that died early in life, OR, an aborted infant.

Could these to be used to encourage those people that children are not judged until they have knowledge of good and evil? Because for me they say it all, but maybe I am wrong. Please tell me what you think.

This scripture is clearly speaking about our Lord Jesus.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

This scripture is talking about Isaiah's son.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Isa 7:17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

So I think this scripture clearly shows that children are not born with the knowledge to choose good and not choose evil.
That is what our salvation is about choosing good (a life with Christ) over evil (a life without Christ).
If one is not old enough or mentally old enough to understand to choose good and not choose evil does the Lord hold them accountable for that lack of knowledge?

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was born about 1,500 after the law of Moses' came so he cannot be talking about when it was given. He must mean something else.
He is speaking about himself, his own experience.
He says he was alive before the law. What does he mean....that he was alive before the law came to him personally.
So before that he was not in sin.
But once the law came to him, his understanding of choosing good and not choosing evil,
then sin came alive to him.
At that point he died, he was dead in sin, and accountable because of that knowledge of what was good and what was evil.

If you believe I have interpreted these scripture incorrectly would you please point out where?
Thank you, Chopper.

 

[Gary]

In other words, there were no SINNERS before the Law.

If there were no sinners before the Law, why are sinners mentioned?

Genesis 13
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother Gary, could I suggest that before man ate of the tree of knowledge, sin was not known? Cain would not have been accountable lest he knew better. Why also was Israel given the law engraven in stones because of sin if there was no transgressions?

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[Chopper]

Could these to be used to encourage those people that children are not judged until they have knowledge of good and evil? Because for me they say it all, but maybe I am wrong. Please tell me what you think.

This scripture is clearly speaking about our Lord Jesus.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

This scripture is talking about Isaiah's son.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Isa 7:17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

So I think this scripture clearly shows that children are not born with the knowledge to choose good and not choose evil.
That is what our salvation is about choosing good (a life with Christ) over evil (a life without Christ).
If one is not old enough or mentally old enough to understand to choose good and not choose evil does the Lord hold them accountable for that lack of knowledge?

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was born about 1,500 after the law of Moses' came so he cannot be talking about when it was given. He must mean something else.
He is speaking about himself, his own experience.
He says he was alive before the law. What does he mean....that he was alive before the law came to him personally.
So before that he was not in sin.
But once the law came to him, his understanding of choosing good and not choosing evil,
then sin came alive to him.
At that point he died, he was dead in sin, and accountable because of that knowledge of what was good and what was evil.

If you believe I have interpreted these scripture incorrectly would you please point out where?
Thank you, Chopper.

Unless I have misunderstood what you have said, YOU ARE RIGHT ON! Especially about "Could these to be used to encourage those people that children are not judged until they have knowledge of good and evil?" Absolutely!!!!! So many parents don't know this and live in fear about not ever seeing that child again or just not knowing. This information will set them free! THE TRUTH WILL SET THEM FREE, and the Truth is Scripture. Deb, go tell the world.

 

[Chopper]

If there were no sinners before the Law, why are sinners mentioned?

Genesis 13
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.
.

Ah ha, you got me! The word sinner here is the Hebrew word "chatta" which means "criminal" Since the word "sinner" is closely attached with breaking God's Laws, commandments, rules and statues it would be a weak reference to Ge. 13:13.

 

[turnorburn]

Sin = "Transgression of the Law" an unbeliever told me that after asking me what sin was and i didn't have an immediate answer.. 2

tob

 

[Gary]

Ah ha, you got me! The word sinner here is the Hebrew word "chatta" which means "criminal" Since the word "sinner" is closely attached with breaking God's Laws, commandments, rules and statues it would be a weak reference to Ge. 13:13.

Your statement about no sinners before the Law is misleading because there was in fact sinners before the Law. The Word testifies to that. I don't understand your point.
.

 

[Chopper]

Your statement about no sinners before the Law is misleading because there was in fact sinners before the Law. The Word testifies to that. I don't understand your point.
.

Have it your way.

 

[Chopper]

Gary, I don't like your choice of the word "misleading" I have never misled anyone! If you don't understand what I explained to you, please ask. I'm simply saying that the word sin is usually connected with the Law given at Mt. Sinai. I probably should not have expressed myself the way I did by saying no Law, no sin. It was just a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.

Not a lot of people know that I'm having health problems. There are days when my mind is not very sharp. I have vertigo quite bad, and that effects my vision and brain functions. Some times it's hard to express what I want to say. I suppose some day I'll have to stop posting.

 

[agua.]

Could these to be used to encourage those people that children are not judged until they have knowledge of good and evil? Because for me they say it all, but maybe I am wrong. Please tell me what you think.

This scripture is clearly speaking about our Lord Jesus.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

This scripture is talking about Isaiah's son.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Isa 7:17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

So I think this scripture clearly shows that children are not born with the knowledge to choose good and not choose evil.
That is what our salvation is about choosing good (a life with Christ) over evil (a life without Christ).
If one is not old enough or mentally old enough to understand to choose good and not choose evil does the Lord hold them accountable for that lack of knowledge?

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was born about 1,500 after the law of Moses' came so he cannot be talking about when it was given. He must mean something else.
He is speaking about himself, his own experience.
He says he was alive before the law. What does he mean....that he was alive before the law came to him personally.
So before that he was not in sin.
But once the law came to him, his understanding of choosing good and not choosing evil,
then sin came alive to him.
At that point he died, he was dead in sin, and accountable because of that knowledge of what was good and what was evil.

If you believe I have interpreted these scripture incorrectly would you please point out where?
Thank you, Chopper.

 

[Deborah13]

Gary, I don't like your choice of the word "misleading" I have never misled anyone! If you don't understand what I explained to you, please ask. I'm simply saying that the word sin is usually connected with the Law given at Mt. Sinai. I probably should not have expressed myself the way I did by saying no Law, no sin. It was just a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.

Not a lot of people know that I'm having health problems. There are days when my mind is not very sharp. I have vertigo quite bad, and that effects my vision and brain functions. Some times it's hard to express what I want to say. I suppose some day I'll have to stop posting.

Well as far as I am concerned, even if I am a woman, that day has Not come my friend and brother in the Lord. So you can just listen and forget those thoughts. :nod

 

[Deborah13]

Thank you for telling me what you think.

 

[agua.]

Well as far as I am concerned, even if I am a woman, that day has Not come my friend and brother in the Lord. So you can just listen and forget those thoughts. :nod

Yeah Chop listen up.

( Debs I see that women preaching thread left a welt :D )

 

[Chopper]

Well as far as I am concerned, even if I am a woman, that day has Not come my friend and brother in the Lord. So you can just listen and forget those thoughts. :nod

LOL, thanks Deb.

 

[Eugene]

Deborah13, When David’s child was taken by God, David made this comment in 2 Sam 12:23 concerning his child. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Where had God taken him? Well we see David mentioned in the heroes of faith in Heb 11:32 meaning he must have went to paradise when he died, and there he would have been reunited with his departed son.

Is anything hard for the LORD? John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb. Luke 1:15.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah Chop listen up.

( Debs I see that women preaching thread left a welt :biggrin )

Nope, I do not feel any welts. I'm sure some men wish I did, present company excluded, but I'm tougher than that.:wink

However, seeing there are men who feel they would be in rebellion if they read what women write and maybe learn something from them, most of the time in the future I will refrain from posting, especially in formal Bible Studies.
But not to worry mate, if the Lord wants me to share as I was before He will lead me to a place where I am welcome to do that, even in a mixed gender Bible Study.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13, When David’s child was taken by God, David made this comment in 2 Sam 12:23 concerning his child. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Where had God taken him? Well we see David mentioned in the heroes of faith in Heb 11:32 meaning he must have went to paradise when he died, and there he would have been reunited with his departed son.

Is anything hard for the LORD? John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb. Luke 1:15.

Yes, I think this one is very good, too. Unfortunately some think David's son went to heaven because David was God's child.
So children of believers will go but not the children of sinners. I believe all children will go to be with our Lord because they are innocent of any sin of their own.

Yes, is anything too hard for our Lord? Absolutely not!