The Fate of Unbelieving Children

[Deborah13]

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

No one wants to think that God would send a child to hell as we serve a sovereign God full of mercy and grace and extends that love towards everyone who will accept it, but according to vs.6 God says I will also forget your children. I think that is very clear what God said there. Three examples of God forgetting the children would be those children of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Amalekites children and the first born of the Egyptians. If these children had any chance of coming into the knowledge of the true God, don't you think he would have spared them! I would think so. Only God can judge the secret intents of the heart, even in newborns and those with mental handicaps. God is a just God in all his judgements. Just because I think some babies will go to the lake of fire does not make me a bad person or one without a heart, it just means we all need to face certain realities even though we might not agree with them and would think God would never send a baby to hell. I praise the Lord that his gospel message is being taught all over the world, but yet even those who hear the message refuse to accept it.

Hosea is talking about the whole nation of Israel, not individual people. When He says He will forget them He says how He will forget them.

Hos 4:10 For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the LORD.
Hos 4:11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
Hos 4:14 I will not punish your daughters when they commit whoredom, nor your spouses when they commit adultery: for themselves are separated with whores, and they sacrifice with harlots: therefore the people that doth not understand shall fall.

Ouch, He will not chasten their daughters, God chastens those that He loves. So God says OK fine, you don't want to listen to Me you're on your own I'm going to stop blessing you, see how that turns out for you.
I see this as God once again leading them to the valley of decision.
I also believe that there is prophecy here about the nation of Israel as a whole.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I believe I have been responsible through scripture to believe how I believe and to draw conclusion in my belief just as you have.

We definitely can't seem to come to agreement there, our principals in how we interpret have been made clearly different.

It repels me too, but the possibility of reality is something to not take lightly as we mix it with emotions.

The reality of what you believe being true turns God into a monster, it cannot be true because God is Just and Good.

Nothing could be done in response to this doctrine as children die unexpectedly, it would simply be the most vile fate for one to consider.

Only God would have his reason to do what is right and just and I will trust him in all his ways.

If God tells you he is Just and then does something that is not Just, such as condemning an infant. Why would you trust him? I trust that God will be Just, not simply that whatever he does we will call it Just regardless of whether or not it is.

I do not worship Molech.

Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, 5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind— Jeremiah 19:4-5 (ESV)

 

[WIP]

If God tells you he is Just and then does something that is not Just, such as condemning an infant. Why would you trust him? I trust that God will be Just, not simply that whatever he does we will call it Just regardless of whether or not it is.

Could I ask for clarification about this? When we say that God is just, by who's definition of "just" are we making this assertion?

Romans 8:28 comes to mind.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Could I ask for clarification about this? When we say that God is just, by who's definition of "just" are we making this assertion?

By the standard he has revealed, and if he contradicts that then he is not Just. He said concerning Justice that he detests the condemnation of the innocent, which infants are, and therefore he would not be Just in condemning them.

It also simply isn't Just because he says it is, but to our nature it is noticeably Just or else the term would have no meaning.

In order for us to say that God is loving or good or just, it is important that we be able to actually discern these traits in a way that is meaningful. Or else what meaning would it convey if we said God was loving, but there was nothing discernible about him that was actually loving. We know love not because God said he is loving, but because he showed it. We know God is Just in the same way.

 

[WIP]

By the standard he has revealed, and if he contradicts that then he is not Just. He said concerning Justice that he detests the condemnation of the innocent, which infants are, and therefore he would not be Just in condemning them.

It also simply isn't Just because he says it is, but to our nature it is noticeably Just or else the term would have no meaning.

In order for us to say that God is loving or good or just, it is important that we be able to actually discern these traits in a way that is meaningful. Or else what meaning would it convey if we said God was loving, but there was nothing discernible about him that was actually loving. We know love not because God said he is loving, but because he showed it. We know God is Just in the same way.

To make sure I understand, you are basically saying that we know what is just in God's eyes because we know Him?

 

[chessman]

Could I ask for clarification about this? When we say that God is just, by who's definition of "just" are we making this assertion?

Why not start where I did in my first post on this topic?

I vote, they are judged by a just God and receive eternal life via His Mercy. Here's why:

1:
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it [this would include children], and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and each one was judged according to their deeds.

Doesn't this speak for itself?

Notice:

1. This judgment is a description of the post death judgment (fate) of which the OP topic is asking about. All this talk about what happened to the Egyptian's first born, IS NOT their final fate to begin with (Scripturally speaking). It's not reasonable to conclude someone's post judgment fate based on how they died on Earth. We all die once! Even Jesus and Abraham.

2. The Final Judgment (at least according to John's vision) clearly shows the resurrected dead being judged according to their deeds (not their bloodline, their 'seed', their parents, their grandparents, Adam/Eve, or Satan for that matter. Sounds like the very definition of justice to me. Speculation about the infants of the Egyptians and/or the Amalekites final fate based on their first death seems an odd way to go about answering this question.

3. The question that remains then is what are these "deeds" like? Not who there parents were. Which is why I mentioned:

Luke 18:15-17
Now they were bringing even their babies to him so that he could touch them. But when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to himself, saying, “Allow the children to come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Truly I say to you, whoever does not welcome the kingdom of God like a young child will never enter into it.” ​

Evidently, a good deed for an adult is to "welcome the Kingdom of God (Jesus) like a yound child". And what's more, this good "deed" literally uses the example of "like a young child" to teach us adults something about our own attitude toward how we welcome the Kingdom of God (or should) and "enter into it".

And if it wasn't clear enough already, Jesus actually tells us "for to such [young children] belongs the kingdom of God.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

To make sure I understand, you are basically saying that we know what is just in God's eyes because we know Him?

Remember what I said about knowing the fact that God is loving, we don't simply take God's word for it. This is how we know love, that Christ laid down his life for us. We know because God demonstrated his love in Christ.

We also know God's Justice because of how he has demonstrated it throughout the testimony of Scriptures.

I went on to say that it is further confirmed by the fact that we are able to recognize it as being Just.

 

[The Gospels]

I think it says it in the bible, children are protected..

 

[Eugene]

Eternal suffering in a lake of hell fire. Too bad for those remote tribes that never encountered civilization.

Dear King James, you make a statement here I don’t believe and would like to suggest alternatives to your position. I do not believe God would judge without witness, and the opportunity to come to Him Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:19. Thanks.

Genesis 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

As told me by my pastor now in heaven with some of my added comments.
I want to tell the story of a man called Dummy Walker. I heard this from a man that knew a man and is supposed to be true. The man that told it to me knew the original man that was the pastor at this event and trusted his truthfulness about it.

Many years ago before Heller Keller as the miracle worker came around, deaf persons had no sign language, and virtually no way of communicating except grunts, waving their arms for attention, etc. and Dummy certainly fit that category. We don't hear that term used much anymore because deaf people communicate very well and they are able to verbalize now due to new audio techniques allowing them to hear their own voices so they learn to pronounce words.

Well, back to the events that were about to take place that gave me chills when I heard it; have you ever trembled when the Holy Spirit takes hold of you so hard and puts something new into your life that you don't know what to do, and you felt like just getting up and shouting thank You Jesus?

Got to get back to the story or I'll run out of paper before I can finish it. There was a five night revival starting one night in a small Texas town; probably Dallas in its beginning (that's not part of the story and I don't really know if I'm telling it exactly right anyhow.) but on the first night Dummy, his father, mother, and his younger sister attended the meeting. At the end of the sermon, the pastor and the evangelist or whatever gave the call for anyone not saved to come forward and accept Jesus and they would talk to them and tell them what to do.

Well, guess what? Here comes Dummy to the front not able to have heard anything and the pastor was caught off guard not knowing what to do. He sat Dummy back in his seat. The pastor and the evangelist went to the parents the next day and asked what they could do and how would they know if Dummy understood. His father told them that Dummy wasn't stupid, only deaf and he had learned to do chores by imitating them, and the mother said something along the same line. His slightly younger sister had taught Sunday school for five years and said how she tried every way she knew of to tell Dummy about Jesus and never knew if he understood anything.

Second night of the revival and at the end of the meeting the invitation was given again and this time Dummy got up and went past the pastor and evangelist to the front of the altar, lifted his hands heavenward and seemed to grab hold of something and return it to his chest, then he went back to his pew and just sat there; certainly with out comment, he couldn't talk.

Third night through the fifth night Dummy would go to the meeting, and when the invitation was offered, he would look around seeing someone he didn't know, go to them and point his finger toward heaven, then point it to their chest in a repeated tapping of their chest. Pesky guy wasn't he?

Praise God, He can do anything, and He makes the deaf to hear, and He made us the blind to see Him, didn't He? Do not think that those of you who witness to others are not getting through to them, but remember that it is you planting the seed, and maybe a pastor watering, but it is God that gives the increase. Thank you for listening and whatever you do, do all things as unto the Lord in Jesus' name –

 

[Barbarian]

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? [5] But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. [7] To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: [8] But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. [9] Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. [10] But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[11] For there is no respect of persons with God. [12] For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law. [13] For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

A just God cares less for any "official" sign of salvation, only caring what is in one's heart. Children of a young age are innocent, and God is just. And yes, children, as Jesus declared, belong to the Kingdom of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Dear King James, you make a statement here I don’t believe and would like to suggest alternatives to your position. I do not believe God would judge without witness, and the opportunity to come to Him Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:19. Thanks.

Genesis 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

As told me by my pastor now in heaven with some of my added comments.
I want to tell the story of a man called Dummy Walker. I heard this from a man that knew a man and is supposed to be true. The man that told it to me knew the original man that was the pastor at this event and trusted his truthfulness about it.

Many years ago before Heller Keller as the miracle worker came around, deaf persons had no sign language, and virtually no way of communicating except grunts, waving their arms for attention, etc. and Dummy certainly fit that category. We don't hear that term used much anymore because deaf people communicate very well and they are able to verbalize now due to new audio techniques allowing them to hear their own voices so they learn to pronounce words.

Well, back to the events that were about to take place that gave me chills when I heard it; have you ever trembled when the Holy Spirit takes hold of you so hard and puts something new into your life that you don't know what to do, and you felt like just getting up and shouting thank You Jesus?

Got to get back to the story or I'll run out of paper before I can finish it. There was a five night revival starting one night in a small Texas town; probably Dallas in its beginning (that's not part of the story and I don't really know if I'm telling it exactly right anyhow.) but on the first night Dummy, his father, mother, and his younger sister attended the meeting. At the end of the sermon, the pastor and the evangelist or whatever gave the call for anyone not saved to come forward and accept Jesus and they would talk to them and tell them what to do.

Well, guess what? Here comes Dummy to the front not able to have heard anything and the pastor was caught off guard not knowing what to do. He sat Dummy back in his seat. The pastor and the evangelist went to the parents the next day and asked what they could do and how would they know if Dummy understood. His father told them that Dummy wasn't stupid, only deaf and he had learned to do chores by imitating them, and the mother said something along the same line. His slightly younger sister had taught Sunday school for five years and said how she tried every way she knew of to tell Dummy about Jesus and never knew if he understood anything.

Second night of the revival and at the end of the meeting the invitation was given again and this time Dummy got up and went past the pastor and evangelist to the front of the altar, lifted his hands heavenward and seemed to grab hold of something and return it to his chest, then he went back to his pew and just sat there; certainly with out comment, he couldn't talk.

Third night through the fifth night Dummy would go to the meeting, and when the invitation was offered, he would look around seeing someone he didn't know, go to them and point his finger toward heaven, then point it to their chest in a repeated tapping of their chest. Pesky guy wasn't he?

Praise God, He can do anything, and He makes the deaf to hear, and He made us the blind to see Him, didn't He? Do not think that those of you who witness to others are not getting through to them, but remember that it is you planting the seed, and maybe a pastor watering, but it is God that gives the increase. Thank you for listening and whatever you do, do all things as unto the Lord in Jesus' name –

Faith cometh by hearing as we have all learned this, but hearing is not always with audible ears, but by that of what the heart sees and feels. Great story with a great life lesson for all of us to learn from. Thank you for sharing this Eugene

 

[jeff77]

Dear King James, you make a statement here I don’t believe and would like to suggest alternatives to your position. I do not believe God would judge without witness, and the opportunity to come to Him Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom 1:19. Thanks.

Genesis 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

As told me by my pastor now in heaven with some of my added comments.
I want to tell the story of a man called Dummy Walker. I heard this from a man that knew a man and is supposed to be true. The man that told it to me knew the original man that was the pastor at this event and trusted his truthfulness about it.

Many years ago before Heller Keller as the miracle worker came around, deaf persons had no sign language, and virtually no way of communicating except grunts, waving their arms for attention, etc. and Dummy certainly fit that category. We don't hear that term used much anymore because deaf people communicate very well and they are able to verbalize now due to new audio techniques allowing them to hear their own voices so they learn to pronounce words.

Well, back to the events that were about to take place that gave me chills when I heard it; have you ever trembled when the Holy Spirit takes hold of you so hard and puts something new into your life that you don't know what to do, and you felt like just getting up and shouting thank You Jesus?

Got to get back to the story or I'll run out of paper before I can finish it. There was a five night revival starting one night in a small Texas town; probably Dallas in its beginning (that's not part of the story and I don't really know if I'm telling it exactly right anyhow.) but on the first night Dummy, his father, mother, and his younger sister attended the meeting. At the end of the sermon, the pastor and the evangelist or whatever gave the call for anyone not saved to come forward and accept Jesus and they would talk to them and tell them what to do.

Well, guess what? Here comes Dummy to the front not able to have heard anything and the pastor was caught off guard not knowing what to do. He sat Dummy back in his seat. The pastor and the evangelist went to the parents the next day and asked what they could do and how would they know if Dummy understood. His father told them that Dummy wasn't stupid, only deaf and he had learned to do chores by imitating them, and the mother said something along the same line. His slightly younger sister had taught Sunday school for five years and said how she tried every way she knew of to tell Dummy about Jesus and never knew if he understood anything.

Second night of the revival and at the end of the meeting the invitation was given again and this time Dummy got up and went past the pastor and evangelist to the front of the altar, lifted his hands heavenward and seemed to grab hold of something and return it to his chest, then he went back to his pew and just sat there; certainly with out comment, he couldn't talk.

Third night through the fifth night Dummy would go to the meeting, and when the invitation was offered, he would look around seeing someone he didn't know, go to them and point his finger toward heaven, then point it to their chest in a repeated tapping of their chest. Pesky guy wasn't he?

Praise God, He can do anything, and He makes the deaf to hear, and He made us the blind to see Him, didn't He? Do not think that those of you who witness to others are not getting through to them, but remember that it is you planting the seed, and maybe a pastor watering, but it is God that gives the increase. Thank you for listening and whatever you do, do all things as unto the Lord in Jesus' name –

Great story Eugene!

 

[Deborah13]

A story to remember. Thanks Eugene.

 

[Chopper]

Doulos, Hi there,, and thank you for that very important question/remark. The fate of children is answered in Romans 5:12-21. I have posted this in several threads but probably you missed seeing them. My answer is Scriptural as any question should be. You should read the whole portion that I have listed, but we're interested in verse 13.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

This portion of Scripture explains that from Adam to Moses was 1,500 years. Sin was in the world obviously, but there was no Law during that time period. So the answer is, when there is no Law, sin is not being recorded. The word "impute" means "recorded". Now, the age of accountability must come in at this point. From birth to the age of accountability, a child does not understand "Law", therefore it's sins are not being recorded. Now, what is the age of accountability? It would be different for different people. There are folk who are mentally challenged, their age of accountability might be as high as 30years old, or older. But lets put in the age that Jewish people use, 13, is when they figure a boy has reached the age of manhood. So lets use that age for our subject. That child, from birth to 13, although he/she sins, it is not being recorded, neither is original sin because they have not reached an age to comprehend what Jesus Christ did for them. Once they go over the age of accountability, they must become born again. Until that time comes, if they die, they go to heaven to be with Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

Doulos, Hi there,, and thank you for that very important question/remark. The fate of children is answered in Romans 5:12-21. I have posted this in several threads but probably you missed seeing them. My answer is Scriptural as any question should be. You should read the whole portion that I have listed, but we're interested in verse 13.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

This portion of Scripture explains that from Adam to Moses was 1,500 years. Sin was in the world obviously, but there was no Law during that time period. So the answer is, when there is no Law, sin is not being recorded. The word "impute" means "recorded". Now, the age of accountability must come in at this point. From birth to the age of accountability, a child does not understand "Law", therefore it's sins are not being recorded. Now, what is the age of accountability? It would be different for different people. There are folk who are mentally challenged, their age of accountability might be as high as 30years old, or older. But lets put in the age that Jewish people use, 13, is when they figure a boy has reached the age of manhood. So lets use that age for our subject. That child, from birth to 13, although he/she sins, it is not being recorded, neither is original sin because they have not reached an age to comprehend what Jesus Christ did for them. Once they go over the age of accountability, they must become born again. Until that time comes, if they die, they go to heaven to be with Jesus.

So Moses was given what's called Moses' Law 430 yrs. After Abraham.

God made no laws with man before Moses' Law?
So all the people like the one's killed in Noah's flood will all be saved? murderers and all?
How could God determine that Noah and Job, etc were righteous men if there was no law?

Sorry, I can't ask my husband at home, he knows less than I do.

 

[elijah23]

A certain topic came up in this forum today that I wonder what most people think on the matter.

It is in regards to the fate of unbelieving children who die at an early age without having professed faith in Christ.

What happens to them? Respond to the poll with your answer, and comment below with your thoughts.

It's hard to believe anyone is an unbeliever in the final moments of their lives.

 

[Gary]

It's hard to believe anyone is an unbeliever in the final moments of their lives.

Most people don't have the luxury of knowing they're in their final moments.
.

 

[elijah23]

But the Lord knows, and when we are on our death beds, I suspect he'll be talking to us. Remember that he loves us.

 

[Eugene]

So all the people like the one's killed in Noah's flood will all be saved? murderers and all? How could God determine that Noah and Job, etc were righteous men if there was no law?

Dear Sister Deborah13, I'll attempt to answer just this part of your question at this point. Men had partook of the tree of knowledge, and Abel even knew the correct sacrifice to offer; his offering was acceptable and Cain's wasn't.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee (Only?) have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Like the door of the ark closed after them, Jesus is that door to Noah, and God shut him in Gen 7:16. There is only access to our Father in Christ, and we read in Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, as the waters rose were there some outside the ark that repented? It seems as there might have been. Just as in the end times, Rom 10:13, Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved. Remember where we first read this in Gen 4:26 . . then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

1Pe 3:19 By which also He (Jesus) went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

God is always faithful to those who believe even as to the thief (Though repentful he still died – so did those when the waters rose), and as He says in Heb 13:5 . . I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I’m sorry if I’ve taken the context of the OP to include examples of the end times, but it’s hard not to when we read in 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. In other words, if we don’t take into account the allegories presented to us in Genesis as pertaining to our walk with Christ we lose the very purpose of the things they encountered.
Some of these ideas taken from “Lessons in Genesis” presented by M. Bodie.

 

[Chopper]

So Moses was given what's called Moses' Law 430 yrs. After Abraham.

God made no laws with man before Moses' Law?
So all the people like the one's killed in Noah's flood will all be saved? murderers and all?
How could God determine that Noah and Job, etc were righteous men if there was no law?

Sorry, I can't ask my husband at home, he knows less than I do.

There were apparently some requirements before the Law, otherwise Cain's sacrifice would have been accepted. BUT there were no laws that requiring adherence which would be considered SIN. In other words, there were no SINNERS before the Law.

As far as those who perished in the flood, I am not talking about adults. I'm talking about infants. All infants below the age of accountability world be "saved".

The account of the flood is very interesting, Without any law, the people who lived at that time were ALL WICKED. No Law, NO GOOD PEOPLE, except Noah. It says "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord"....Job? He was "blameless and upright". So whatever requirements that God had with those people before the Law, Abraham, Noah, Job and others pleased the Lord.

Remember Deb, I am talking about infants!