The Father is superior to Jesus

[shad]

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 11:3 (New International Version)
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

John 17:3 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Mark 12:29 (New International Version)
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a]

Acts 7:56 (New International Version)
56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

John 20:31 (New International Version)
31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 1:29 (New International Version)
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Matthew 6:9 (New International Version)
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Colossians 1:15 (New International Version)
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[shad]

The trinitarians claim that God the Father and Jesus are equal. The above verses show they are in error.

 

[ORwarriOR]

Good read! I would like to see some of these explained.

 

[shad]

Good read! I would like to see some of these explained.

OK

 

[shad]

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Well, this is self explanatory, really.

 

[shad]

1 Corinthians 11:3 (New International Version)
3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The head of Jesus is His Father so they are not equal. This is not saying Christ the God is His Father God either.

continue to next...

 

[ProphetMark]

Hmmm, yeah, the first 2 would seem to suggest that the father is superior to the son, none of the others do though. Just to take one of the other 7 at random, how does "Our father in Heaven, hallowed be your name" imply that Jesus isn't equally holy?

 

[westtexas]

John 17:3 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

You told Warrior you would give him an explantion of your verses. Let's do this one with the next 2 verses added.
John 17:3-5 (3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (KJV)

At creation, in scripture (Gen. 1:26 etc.), Elohiym #430 is used. Elohiym is the PLURAL form of eloah (God-singular). The God-head was present at creation (thus the PLURAL elohiym). Christ humbled himself and came to earth as a man, he was fully God and fully man.

Let's hear your explanation, Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

Acts 7:56 (New International Version)
56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

And this one also. As you know this verse is happening as Stephen is being stoned for his belief.

Acts 7:59--And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit. (KJV)

You told Warrior you would give him an explanation of your verses. Please explain how Stephen can call upon God and call him "Lord Jesus"
Westtexas

 

[Logos57]

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
At first glance that would seem to be saying that, but we know from Hebrews 1:6-8, Jesus is greater than the angels.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste for every man.
So I believe Jesus was referring to the fact that in His early body (Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9), His Father was greater than Him.


I Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ: and head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
So you are telling me that the man is superior to the woman. How many of you man who have been bless greatly by God with a wife want to tell her you are superior to them base on this verse. Because a man is the head of the woman does not make him superior it just give him authority. The only case where one is superior to the other in this verse is Christ the head of every man. The Father has authority over the Son just as in any good Father/Son relationship here on earth. This is why Jesus/God calls Yahweh/His God (John 20:17,28; Psalms 45:6-8; Hebrews 1:8-9)

 

[Packrat]

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

So in this passage Jesus is telling them that he's leaving them. Then he says, "You should be glad that I'm leaving you because God is greater than me!" Does this make sense? If Jesus were only man then we already know that God is greater than a mere man. Besides, how is this supposed to comfort us?

What's he talking about? I believe he's saying, "Be happy I'm going to the Father because the Father holds a higher authoritative position than I in this world. Rather than being tormented here on earth, I will share in his glory as I had before the world began (John 17:5)." Wow. Before the world began? Does that mean he shared God's glory before all creation? So that means he had the glory of God and wasn't originally a created being? Seems that way...

By the way, good post on the point about men and women, Logos57.

 

[shad]

I dont have time right now. I will explain later all the verses that those are talking about God the Father being superior to Jesus.

be patient.

 

[Adullam]

The FAther is greater. This shows the depth of God. Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord!

Jesus Christ did not count equality with the Father something to be held on to. Jesus Christ is from heaven...a part of God, in the same nature and likeness of God...His only Son our Lord.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

If one cannot understand...but made himself nothing then there is little hope to understand who Jesus really is.

When pride tries to understand humility, there arises all kinds of dificulty. Taking a few verses to make a erroneous claim is all too common. It is immaturity seeking a voice. The mystery of Jesus Christ is very deep, not understood by carnal man.

Jesus came from very God leaving His first place of glory.
He humbled Himself to nothing.
He became like unto us to prepare us to be reconciled to God.
He elevated man through His sacrifice in they who continue in faith.
He is now seated in glory preparing to receive His people to the glory of God.
He has placed Himself between God and mankind as a divine Mediator.

He is holy, holy!

 

[Amazed]

Jesus' supernatual power and divinity come from God the Father

 

[Pard]

Superior? No, I should think not. People have done a wonderful job in showing true explanations for these passages, bravo.

The Father is not superior to Jesus, nor is Jesus superior to the Father. This is like saying the eye is superior to the finger, or that the toe is superior to the elbow. All parts of the body are needed to function. No part is superior to any other part because all parts contribute equally to make us whole. It is the same for Yahweh. The Father is part and so is the Son and they are equally important in the composition of God.

 

[Oats]

Superior? No, I should think not. People have done a wonderful job in showing true explanations for these passages, bravo.

The Father is not superior to Jesus, nor is Jesus superior to the Father. This is like saying the eye is superior to the finger, or that the toe is superior to the elbow. All parts of the body are needed to function. No part is superior to any other part because all parts contribute equally to make us whole. It is the same for Yahweh. The Father is part and so is the Son and they are equally important in the composition of God.

I agree with you on this...most of this stuff is from the bible. Why do we argue over fine points of Christianity

 

[Drew]

The trinitarians claim that God the Father and Jesus are equal. The above verses show they are in error.

I suggest we trinitarians are not in error. Yes, Jesus does indeed that the Father is greater than He (Jesus). But, I suggest that it is entirely legitimate to see this as Jesus (as God the Son) deferring His will to that of the Father. You may say I am rationalizing. Well, as I have argued in detail in the other thread, Jesus sees Himself as embodying the return of God (the Father) to Zion. That makes him "equal" to God.

I suggest that it is quite telling that the non-trinitarians have ignored my argument. Why do you think that is?

Besides, when Jesus stands before Caiaphus, He (Jesus) places Himself in the role of the Son of Man from Daniel 7. And what does Daniel 7 tell us about the "positional status" of the Son of Man? Answer: He is given a throne next to God the Father - suggesting equality:

As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In the same interaction with Caiaphus, Jesus also quotes from Psalm 110 and clearly claims equality with the Father:

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

 

[shad]

John 17:3 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This is self-explanatory too.

God the Father who is the true God, and then Jesus whom God the Father sent.

 

[shad]

Mark 12:29 (New International Version)
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Jesus is talking about His Father, the Lord is one, not three made up one God. The Lord our God, Jesus is including Himself here when He says "our".

 

[jasoncran]

the word for lord in hebrew is plural not singular. elohim that is the shemah statement defended by francisdales quite well.