The Father is superior to Jesus

[shad]

Acts 7:56 (New International Version)
56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

He is expressing Jesus as second in charge. Right hand is not equal to the person in charge.

 

[westtexas]

John 17:3 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This is self-explanatory too.

God the Father who is the true God, and then Jesus whom God the Father sent.

You didn't answer the question from pg. 1 Shad. What do think Jesus was speaking of 2 verses after this one when He asked the Father to glorify him as He was before creation?

Westtexas

 

[shad]

John 20:31 (New International Version)
31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

He is saying that the Gospel is written so that we would believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Lamb. If Trinitarians are right about belief that Jesus is God, then John should have said "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, God, and that..."
But John does not, because believing Jesus is God is NOT necessary.

I already explained it.

 

[shad]

John 1:29 (New International Version)
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Again, John is not saying "look, God who takes away..."

Jesus is the Lamb of God, not God.

 

[shad]

Matthew 6:9 (New International Version)
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Jesus did not say pray to Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[shad]

Colossians 1:15 (New International Version)
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Here it is; Jesus is created by God th Father Himself because there was no one else when creation began. That's why Jesus is the firstborn and THE Son of God. After that, God gave Jesus authority to create everything else.

 

[Elijah674]

I take offence to this Subjects Falshood! It does not say ''i' think that this is so, but that it is so! That sounds like Eccl. 3:14 + Rev. 22:18-19 Fatal WARNING to me.

There is nothing created that Christ was not involved in [as God]. (other world's'!) The Gospel is Everlasting as with the Covenant. Everlasting in this context means 'Immortal' with no beginning or ending! Prov. talks about the 'future'! Christ playing as a lad. What was brought 'forth' was the 'plan of salvation'. The GodHead had for/ordained that Christ would become the Son. The PLAN CAME FORTH when it was pre/ordained to be brought forth.

In heaven itself the rebellion started. Lucifer was the covering cherub over the [MERCY SEAT.] (Everlasting Gospel) Under the Mercy Seat was the Ark of God, where in were the Everlasting Covenant. (10 Commandments) See 2 Cor. 3:3 for whose LETTER OF LOVING EPISTLE IT IS TO US! The GodHead was not in eternity taken by surprise. They knew that [THE PLAN] OF SALVATION would be required to [be BROUGHT FORTH!] But it had been there in Eternity, as was the Godheads Unity!

Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was begotten??

In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)

and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"

So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet, never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??

Here is a later prophesied in time concept of the Godhead of Christ God seen.'This is He that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness..' Acts 7:3 8 And.. '... ignorant ... And drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that ROCK WAS CHRIST.' 1 Cor. 10:1-3 in part. Another prophecy! 'Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.' Psalms 80:1

[*NOTICE] 'Jesus Christ the *SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOREVER. (Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant)
Be [NOT CARRIED ABOUT WITH DIVERS AND STRANGE DOCTRINES.'] Hebrews 13:8, 9. This is [the Doctrine of Christ]! Again 2 John 9-11.

'Thou, even Thou, ART LORD ALONE; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven OF HEAVENS, with ALL THEIR HOST, the earth, and ALL THINGS that are therein, ... and Thou Preservest them ALL; and the HOST OF HEAVEN *WORSHIPETH THEE. Nehemiah 9:6

... Moreover THOU leddeth them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, ...Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spaketh with them from heaven, AND GAVETH THEM RIGHT JUDGEMENTS, AND TRUE LAWS, GOOD STATUES *AND COMMANDMENTS. (plural!) AND *MADEST KNOWN UNTO THEM [THY HOLY SABBATH, (No plural!) and commandest them [precepts, statutes, *and laws, (plural) and BY THE HAND OF MOSES thy servant..' Nehemiah 9:12,14. (Deuteronomy 31:9 Moses wrote this law in a book! see following verses Deuteronomy 31:24-26 for their placement in the *side of the Ark)

And note Colossians 1:13-19 "For by Him were CREATED ALL THINGS .... AND HE WAS *BEFORE ALL THINGS ..."

AGAIN DEAR FRIEND, ETERNAL CHRIST GOD, JEHOVAH GOD, HOLY SPIRIT GOD! That IS THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL & THE EVERLASTING COVENANT OF THE ONE GOD, GODHEAD. (yet the Holy Spirit God has not been brought forth in this missive yet, but you can rest assure that He is GOD!)
1 Tim. 1:
[16] Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[17] Now unto the King [eternal, immortal,] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
There is NO satanic doubt cast in these Inspired Words of the Godhead. They are IMMORTAL and there has never been a time when They were not!
Now lets go to the very first part of Their Word to us. We see below where Adam & Eve are to die. And that the tree of life was seen as giving Eternal Life only on CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE.
Yet, of Prime Importance was that ONLY GOD has unconditional Immortality. Pay attention to the Word of 'become 'as' one of US.'


Gen. 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(Again, as one of US! Yet, it is documented that only ..so far, that these two are Immortal! Compare Gen. 11:7 for 'US' again, Two Immortal ones!)

[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[24] So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim's, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
And in Rev. We see that the tree of life will again be restored to the ones who will have Eternal life. They will again eat of thr Tree of Life to be conditionally Immortal. See Nahum 1:9

And what good would more truth do when even these Truths are rejected by some??

--Elijah

 

[Pard]

Two points,

First, Elijah, I think we just agreed again...

Second, I think shad is ignoring our proper interpretations and questions to him because he has no answers.

 

[watchman F]

Good read! I would like to see some of these explained.

It is really easy when you accept the whole truth of scripture and not just the truth you like. Jesus laid down His deity and came to Earth in the form of man during that period He was submissive to the Father

 

[dadof10]

The trinitarians claim that God the Father and Jesus are equal. The above verses show they are in error.

The Father is "superior" to Jesus IN CERTAIN WAYS. Just like you are superior/inferior to your father in different ways, so too with Jesus. Jesus PROCEEDS FROM THE FATHER, which makes Him, in that way, "inferior" to God. Since He proceeds ETERNALLY, that makes Him equal in SUBSTANCE to the Father, as you are equal in substance to all other humans. Jesus has two natures. When He is speaking of Himself as "inferior" to God, He is (as Drew said) deferring His divinity and speaking from His humanity. The verses that CLEARLY STATE that Jesus is God, are speaking to His Divine Nature.

This has been explained to you repeatedly, yet you fail to address what Trinitarians actually mean by the word "Trinity". You choose instead to keep beating the inferior/superior drum instead of acknowledging the actual DOCTRINE of the Trinity and responding to what we actually believe. No one here expects you to embrace it, but at least try to understand it and deal with what we actually believe instead of playing word games.

 

[JCisTheLivingWord]

Jesus is the Living Word of Jehovah God. He is the Only Begotten Son Of Our Heavenly Father. To Deni who Christ is is to Deni our very salvation through the Lamb. Those who Deni Jesus is the Only Begotten Son are Antichrist. God sent His Word not Himself. For Jehovah God is Eternal and cannot be tempted by Evil. In his grace and infallible truth he Sent His Very Word and made it Flesh. This is the messenger and the Lamb Of God (Christ Jesus) Through the Only Begotten we can Have Salvation. Jehovah is the Redeemer but Christ Jesus is the Way.

Hebrews 1:1-3

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

 

[Elijah674]

Two points,

First, Elijah, I think we just agreed again...

Second, I think shad is ignoring our proper interpretations and questions to him because he has no answers.

Some seem to not ' Spiritually catch' (it takes time for all to be led!) the Eternal PLAN that was forknown in ETERNITY. (Rev. 14:6 +seen in Proverbs 8:22 on31 as prophesied) Before the birth of Christ/Man, Christ was to be the center/piece of the Godheads PLAN [TO BECOME THE SON] that would be Brought Forth.. The Acts verse (Acts 7:38) finds Stephen FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST (ibid. 55) DOCUMENTING CHRIST WAS in the Church before He became man. + the Psalms & Heb. verses doing the same. (Psalms 1:7, Acts 13:23, Heb. 1:1-6) Paul even UNDERSTOOD this Truth & taught it to the Gentil Believers in Acts 13:32-33.

Another verse of Inspirition is found in Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse for what the Godhead can do & does do, which is hard for ones to hang on to in ALL DOCTRINE. The thought behind the verse is what is lost by some it seems. Kind of like the Heb. 13:8 verse that Christ was IMMORTAL & [THE SAME GOD FOREVER! (yes, 'i' added God, BUT ONLY GOD HAS IMMORTALITY & LIVES FOREVER [ALL DIRECTIONS!]!!

OK: Rom. 4
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and [calleth those things which be not as though they were]. And of course He knew what the Eternal Plan was to be, & THEY had Christ/God in Eternity 'SET UP' to be Christ/Man/God when needed.

I do 'KNOW' (2 John 2:9) that the Subject which is really the TOTAL DOCTRINE OF CHRIST is of utmost importance! And the ones who are LED (Rom. 8:14) by the Holy Spirit will.. before it is all over with (666) understand this Truth along with all Truth! But again as I have stated before, knowing Truth does not make them Christians. See John again speaking from Inspiration in John 12:42-43. (and these ones were real believers) So for now, the only Truths that one can be held accountable for are the ones that the Holy Spirit has convinced us of, huh? Even see the saved in Rom. 2:14-15

---Elijah

 

[shad]

John 17:3-5 (3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (KJV)

At creation, in scripture (Gen. 1:26 etc.), Elohiym #430 is used. Elohiym is the PLURAL form of eloah (God-singular). The God-head was present at creation (thus the PLURAL elohiym). Christ humbled himself and came to earth as a man, he was fully God and fully man. [/quote3]

Where does the Bible say Jesus was fully God and fully man. You cannot find even one scripture. you are making it up. Everything I showed are all contextual to each other. Your interpretation is all out of context. Jesus did not come down on His own He was sent. Read it honestly.

 

[shad]

Acts 7:56 (New International Version)
56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

I already explained this. Right hand is second in chrage. His Father is in charge, not Jesus.

And this one also. As you know this verse is happening as Stephen is being stoned for his belief.

the same as the above.

Acts 7:59--And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit. (KJV)

You added Calling upon God. shame on you.

You told Warrior you would give him an explanation of your verses. Please explain how Stephen can call upon God and call him "Lord Jesus"
Westtexas

the same as the above.

 

[shad]

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

So in this passage Jesus is telling them that he's leaving them. Then he says, "You should be glad that I'm leaving you because God is greater than me!" Does this make sense?

If Jesus were only man then we already know that God is greater than a mere man. Besides, how is this supposed to comfort us?

Jesus was sent by His Father with authority to do miracles and He did. He was sent to be the Lamb, why this does not comfort you. Can you be a sinless, miracle worker, and the Lamb for all of us?

It comforts us because Jesus is only God's messenger and He did a great things. And God the Father is even much more greater than Jesus. Jesus showed great things and now we can even more confident in being God's people. There no nothing to fear because God almighty is on our side. Why not this is not comfort to you?

 

[shad]

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
At first glance that would seem to be saying that, but we know from Hebrews 1:6-8, Jesus is greater than the angels.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste for every man.
So I believe Jesus was referring to the fact that in His early body (Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 10:5-9), His Father was greater than Him.

Where does the Saripture say His early body was greater than God the Father? Yes, Jesus was an angel and the angels are much more powerful than human.

So you are telling me that the man is superior to the woman.

I am not saying, the Scripture does.

How many of you man who have been bless greatly by God with a wife want to tell her you are superior to them base on this verse.

Man should not boast because of this.

The Father has authority over the Son just as in any good Father/Son relationship here on earth. This is why Jesus/God calls Yahweh/His God (John 20:17,28; Psalms 45:6-8; Hebrews 1:8-9)

If Jesus is equal with His Father God does not have authority over Him. Be honest and open to the Scripture instead of twisting around for your likings.

Jesus

 

[shad]

Jesus' supernatual power and divinity come from God the Father

So simple isn't it? amen.

 

[shad]

The FAther is greater. This shows the depth of God. Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord!

Jesus Christ did not count equality with the Father something to be held on to. Jesus Christ is from heaven...a part of God, in the same nature and likeness of God...His only Son our Lord.

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,

If one cannot understand...but made himself nothing then there is little hope to understand who Jesus really is.

When pride tries to understand humility, there arises all kinds of dificulty. Taking a few verses to make a erroneous claim is all too common. It is immaturity seeking a voice. The mystery of Jesus Christ is very deep, not understood by carnal man.

What is your point? This thread is about God being superior to His Son, Jesus.

 

[shad]

The Father is not superior to Jesus, nor is Jesus superior to the Father.

So you are saying the Scripture I showed you is all lies?

 

[shad]

I suggest we trinitarians are not in error. Yes, Jesus does indeed that the Father is greater than He (Jesus). But, I suggest that it is entirely legitimate to see this as Jesus (as God the Son) deferring His will to that of the Father. You may say I am rationalizing. Well, as I have argued in detail in the other thread, Jesus sees Himself as embodying the return of God (the Father) to Zion. That makes him "equal" to God.

Your rationalization is out of context with the rest of the verses I showed. Be honest and open to the verses I showed.