The Firmament, and the Cause of the 40 Days of Rain of the Great Flood

[cgaviria]

Hello fellow believers in Jesus Christ, I would like to start a discussion with this short study,

There are many who do not understand what the "firmament" in Genesis 1:6 was, and think that it was merely just referring to the heaven, or what we calk the sky, but there is actually more to it than just that. Lets take a look at the passage mentioning the firmament,

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the water, and let it be for parting between water and water! [7] And God made the firmament, and God parted between the water which was underneath the firmament, and between the water above the firmament.
(Genesis 1:6-7 [ABP])

The Greek word for firmament is "stereoma", which means "firm", and it is also used in this passage,

For if even in the flesh I am absent, yet in the spirit I am with you, rejoicing and seeing your order, and the firmness, the one of your belief in Christ. (Colossians 2:5 [ABP])

Notice how in the Genesis passage, in this "firmament", there was water above it, and water below it. This isn't talking about clouds, because clouds are in the firmament, not above it. Peter also makes mention of this,

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (2 Peter 3:5 [KJV])

So what exactly is this firmament, where there is water above it and water below it, and the earth is said to be out of the water, yet in the water? Lets take a look at this prophecy in Ezekiel,

And the likeness above the head of the living creatures was as a firmament, as the vision of ice being stretched out over their wings on top. (Ezekiel 1:22 [ABP])

The firmament was an expanse of air, the sky, being firmly compacted by ice above it, hence why the earth was out of the water, meaning as dry land separated from the water, but within the water, meaning underneath this ice water. This layer of ice, created a "vault" of air, firmly placing the air, and compacting it, hence why in some translations, the word vault is used instead of firmament,

And God said, "Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water." (Genesis 1:6 [NIV])

This compaction and vaulting of the air of the sky created what we nowadays call a "hyperbaric environment", meaning the air was pressurized, thus causing many different effects in how big and lush plants grew, in how big and healthy humans grew, and many other effects that hyperbaric conditions cause. This ice layer of water, was the source of water that came from the heaven during the flood in the days of Noah, as we read here,

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12 [NIV])

This layer of ice melted, and thus caused it to rain on the earth forty days and 40 nights contributing to the flooding of the earth, as the earth was also flooded by the springs of the deep that burst open, which indicates a release of pressure when this layer of ice above the firmament began collapsing as liquid water.

 

[Bar Elohim]

quote[In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and thefloodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12 [NIV])]end quote...

Hmmm, seems to me that ...( the springs of the great deep ) refer to water coming from under the earth. A subterraineon source.

 

[Bar Elohim]

Almost forgot. Since it had never rained at this time in creation, the earth was watered because of the terrarium effect the layer of water encircling the earth above, that kept the earth a consistent temperature as well.

 

[cgaviria]

quote[In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and thefloodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12 [NIV])]end quote...

Hmmm, seems to me that ...( the springs of the great deep ) refer to water coming from under the earth. A subterraineon source.

Did I not say that?

 

[cgaviria]

Almost forgot. Since it had never rained at this time in creation, the earth was watered because of the terrarium effect the layer of water encircling the earth above, that kept the earth a consistent temperature as well.

Do you agree it was ice as mentioned in Ezekiel?

 

[turnorburn]

Here's a great book on it.. you can read it online..

http://www.creationism.org/patten/PattenBiblFlood/index.htm

 

[Edward]

I don't know about ice being in the firmament, but have heard that pre-flood the earth was surrounded by a bubble of water and that humidity watered the plants.

Supposedly, the bubble filtered out many harmful UV rays from the sun which contributed to the long life of men back then, and that it also made the sky Orange instead of blue.

The earth was flooded by rain from above and by underground water from beneath.

 

[turnorburn]

i chatted on the phone with the author of that book Edward, he made a film strip as well. One day i took that filmstrip to a bible study, after it was finished a teacher from either a high school or a college told me they'd fire him if he showed it to his class. It simply blows all of the earth's history books being taught to our youngsters clean out of the water

 

[Obadiah]

Let's remember this is the A&T debate forum and all posts either opposing or adding new information must be backed with referenced scripture. This is in the guidelines of this forum.

 

[Roro1972]

Hello fellow believers in Jesus Christ, I would like to start a discussion with this short study,

There are many who do not understand what the "firmament" in Genesis 1:6 was, and think that it was merely just referring to the heaven, or what we calk the sky, but there is actually more to it than just that. Lets take a look at the passage mentioning the firmament,


The Greek word for firmament is "stereoma", which means "firm", and it is also used in this passage,


Notice how in the Genesis passage, in this "firmament", there was water above it, and water below it. This isn't talking about clouds, because clouds are in the firmament, not above it. Peter also makes mention of this,


So what exactly is this firmament, where there is water above it and water below it, and the earth is said to be out of the water, yet in the water? Lets take a look at this prophecy in Ezekiel,


The firmament was an expanse of air, the sky, being firmly compacted by ice above it, hence why the earth was out of the water, meaning as dry land separated from the water, but within the water, meaning underneath this ice water. This layer of ice, created a "vault" of air, firmly placing the air, and compacting it, hence why in some translations, the word vault is used instead of firmament,


This compaction and vaulting of the air of the sky created what we nowadays call a "hyperbaric environment", meaning the air was pressurized, thus causing many different effects in how big and lush plants grew, in how big and healthy humans grew, and many other effects that hyperbaric conditions cause. This ice layer of water, was the source of water that came from the heaven during the flood in the days of Noah, as we read here,


This layer of ice melted, and thus caused it to rain on the earth forty days and 40 nights contributing to the flooding of the earth, as the earth was also flooded by the springs of the deep that burst open, which indicates a release of pressure when this layer of ice above the firmament began collapsing as liquid water.

How thick was the ice above and how long did it take to melt so it could rain?

 

[cgaviria]

How thick was the ice above and how long did it take to melt so it could rain?

The thickness of the ice I do not know, but how long it took to melt we do know,

And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (Genesis 7:12 [NIV])

 

[Rick W]

Ok, I'll toss my hat into the ring

God speaking to Noah

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Does God or would God use something that already exists or existed as a sign for anything? I don't think so.
To me this says rainbows had not occurred until the time referenced in the above verses.

Going a bit further... (well, back I suppose)

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

"had not caused it to rain upon the earth"

So the rainbow did not exist until after the Flood. Therefore from the time of Creation to the time of the flood no rain fell on Earth. It's also evident there couldn't have been enough water vapor to form clouds as we know today otherwise there would have been rain and rainbows.

It would seem to me that if land was being supported by a vast subterranean source of water then when it spouted forth parts of that landmass would have had to collapse into the space occupied by the water. Great masses of land would either sink and/or great slabs of rock falling inward coming to rest on their edges. It is curious that some mountain ranges are folded as if sinking to fill a void from underneath such as the Appalachians while other ranges such as the Rockies can be seen as huge slabs of rock resting on their edges.

 

[brother Paul]

Firmament in the Hebrew can be simply expanse....when God creates flying creatures which fly in the OPEN firmament it is obvious this not something solid.....

 

[Sinthesis]

Does God or would God use something that already exists or existed as a sign for anything? I don't think so.

Exo 31:13 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.​

 

[Rick W]

Were they keeping His Sabbaths? Sabbaths isn't the focus. Keeping them was. So the sign is something the people will do as commanded by the Lord.

 

[By Grace]

The Greek word for firmament is "stereoma", which means "firm", and it is also used in this passage,

The first time that Moses wrote it, it was in Hebrew, not Greek.
Moses wrote the Pentateuch c. 1500 - 1200 BC.
The Greek version of the OT is called the Septuagint, (LXX) and King Ptolemy (one of the generals of Alexander) ordered it when he ascended the throne after the death of Alexander in 333 BC.

All this is is to say, that you need to be more concerned with the Hebrew word rather than the Greek word.

Genesis 7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean animals, and of animals that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground,
9 two and two, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And after seven days the waters of the flood came upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
12 And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark,
14 they and every beast, according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kinds, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, according to its kind, and every bird, according to its kind, every winged creature.
15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.
16 And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the LORD shut him in.​

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Ge 7:6–16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Here are those words, and I give them to all in hopes of having a better understanding of the total catastrophic event we refer to as "The flood"

בָּקַע (bāqaʿ) to cleave, divide, break through, break up, rip up, tear.
bāqaʿ is used in five situations, all of which express the forcefulness of the splitting action. Of these, only the first sees the splitting action as coming from within, as in the hatching of eggs (Isa 34:15; 59:5), the splitting of wineskins (Josh 9:4, 13), the dawn rending the heavens (Isa 58:8; cf. Mesha Insc. 1.15), etc.123​

Oswalt, J. N. (1999). 271 בָּקַע. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT)

מַעיָן (maʿyān) spring.

This word designates a flow of water from an opening in a hillside or valley. It should be distinguished from “well” or “cistern.” Synonyms are māqôr also meaning fountain but used frequently in a figurative way and maʿyān meaning substantially the same as ʿayin.
The land of Canaan was described as “a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains (ʿayin) and springs, flowing forth in valleys and hills.” Jacob in blessing his sons, reserved one of his greatest blessings for Joseph (tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh), likening him to a fruitful bough by a spring (Gen 49:22).

This perhaps refers to the “planting” of Manasseh and Ephraim in Canaan, suggesting their securing of fertile and significant territories. The association of springs with the deep is seen in Prov 8:28 where the phrase “fountains of the deep” also seems to suggest that the deep was the source of the fountains. The exact meaning of this verse is difficult. Following the LXX, it appears that it is the Lord who strengthened, i.e., established the fountains of the deep, fixing the boundaries of the sea. But in this passage, the bounds of the deep favor the interpretation “ocean” and the ʿayin tĕhôm could merely mean surface of the deep. In Gen 7:11, presumably the reference is to suboceanic sources. In any event, Wisdom was already in existence at the time of this creative act of God.​

Schultz, C. (1999). 1613 עַיִן. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.),TWOT p 633

(tĕhôm) deep, depths, deep places. Modern versions are similar, but sometimes use “springs” or “seas.” The word is used thirty-five times.
A number of times this word is used merely for a large body of water. Isaiah 51:10 and 63:13 refer to the crossing of the Red Sea as does Ps 77:16 [H 17]; 106:9; Ex 15:5 and others. There are other references to the deep waters of the Mediterranean Sea; Jon 2:5 [H 6] is clear, probably also Ezk 26:19; Ps 107:26 and others. There are some references to surface springs as coming from the deep waters below. What concept the Hebrews had of ground water we do not know, but they had the practical knowledge to dig wells and find springs in the valleys: Deut 8:7; Ps 78:15. They probably had not thought of a connection of springs with an underlying ocean because of the simple observable fact that oceans are salt and springs are fresh. Springs are more like the rivers they feed.​

Harris, R. L. (1999). 2495 תהם. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), TWOT p. 965).

From these words, it should be apparent that the entire earth shook and shifted as if it were made of jello and it happened whole Noah and his family were safely floating in a ~450 foot long, three story high barge above it all.

This does make some things like the nature of plate tectonics being very slow moving over millions of years seem to be questionable. But that is a totally different issue, and continuation on that subject is derailing the thread.

 

[brother Paul]

Were they keeping His Sabbaths? Sabbaths isn't the focus. Keeping them was. So the sign is something the people will do as commanded by the Lord.

Keeping the Sabbaths was a sign of the covenant between YHVH and the Children of Israel (Duet. 5) after Joseph...He had not ever made this Covenant agreement with anybody else even their fathers (Noah, SHem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or his sons...)

Therefore a Sign is something not of the natural order...keeping the Sabbath was not natural just like circumcision in the Abrahamic Covenant

The bow in the cloud had not occurred up until then....before Noah's day it had not "rained" but a mist went up from the ground (like a rain forest effect)

 

[brother Paul]

The first time that Moses wrote it, it was in Hebrew, not Greek.
Moses wrote the Pentateuch c. 1500 - 1200 BC.
The Greek version of the OT is called the Septuagint, (LXX) and King Ptolemy (one of the generals of Alexander) ordered it when he ascended the throne after the death of Alexander in 333 BC.

All this is is to say, that you need to be more concerned with the Hebrew word rather than the Greek word.

Genesis 7:6 Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came upon the earth.
7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean animals, and of animals that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground,
9 two and two, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And after seven days the waters of the flood came upon the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
12 And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark,
14 they and every beast, according to its kind, and all the livestock according to their kinds, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, according to its kind, and every bird, according to its kind, every winged creature.
15 They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.
16 And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the LORD shut him in.​

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Ge 7:6–16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

Here are those words, and I give them to all in hopes of having a better understanding of the total catastrophic event we refer to as "The flood"

בָּקַע (bāqaʿ) to cleave, divide, break through, break up, rip up, tear.
bāqaʿ is used in five situations, all of which express the forcefulness of the splitting action. Of these, only the first sees the splitting action as coming from within, as in the hatching of eggs (Isa 34:15; 59:5), the splitting of wineskins (Josh 9:4, 13), the dawn rending the heavens (Isa 58:8; cf. Mesha Insc. 1.15), etc.123​

Oswalt, J. N. (1999). 271 בָּקַע. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT)

מַעיָן (maʿyān) spring.

This word designates a flow of water from an opening in a hillside or valley. It should be distinguished from “well” or “cistern.” Synonyms are māqôr also meaning fountain but used frequently in a figurative way and maʿyān meaning substantially the same as ʿayin.
The land of Canaan was described as “a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains (ʿayin) and springs, flowing forth in valleys and hills.” Jacob in blessing his sons, reserved one of his greatest blessings for Joseph (tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh), likening him to a fruitful bough by a spring (Gen 49:22).

This perhaps refers to the “planting” of Manasseh and Ephraim in Canaan, suggesting their securing of fertile and significant territories. The association of springs with the deep is seen in Prov 8:28 where the phrase “fountains of the deep” also seems to suggest that the deep was the source of the fountains. The exact meaning of this verse is difficult. Following the LXX, it appears that it is the Lord who strengthened, i.e., established the fountains of the deep, fixing the boundaries of the sea. But in this passage, the bounds of the deep favor the interpretation “ocean” and the ʿayin tĕhôm could merely mean surface of the deep. In Gen 7:11, presumably the reference is to suboceanic sources. In any event, Wisdom was already in existence at the time of this creative act of God.​

Schultz, C. (1999). 1613 עַיִן. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.),TWOT p 633

(tĕhôm) deep, depths, deep places. Modern versions are similar, but sometimes use “springs” or “seas.” The word is used thirty-five times.
A number of times this word is used merely for a large body of water. Isaiah 51:10 and 63:13 refer to the crossing of the Red Sea as does Ps 77:16 [H 17]; 106:9; Ex 15:5 and others. There are other references to the deep waters of the Mediterranean Sea; Jon 2:5 [H 6] is clear, probably also Ezk 26:19; Ps 107:26 and others. There are some references to surface springs as coming from the deep waters below. What concept the Hebrews had of ground water we do not know, but they had the practical knowledge to dig wells and find springs in the valleys: Deut 8:7; Ps 78:15. They probably had not thought of a connection of springs with an underlying ocean because of the simple observable fact that oceans are salt and springs are fresh. Springs are more like the rivers they feed.​

Harris, R. L. (1999). 2495 תהם. R. L. Harris, G. L. Archer Jr., & B. K. Waltke (Eds.), TWOT p. 965).

From these words, it should be apparent that the entire earth shook and shifted as if it were made of jello and it happened whole Noah and his family were safely floating in a ~450 foot long, three story high barge above it all.

This does make some things like the nature of plate tectonics being very slow moving over millions of years seem to be questionable. But that is a totally different issue, and continuation on that subject is derailing the thread.

Not really derailing at all...very helpful for some I am sure....in the actions preceding this "Sign" (the Bow) this great upheaval was certainly used by God....also Tehom in Genesis 1 can refer to the empty depth of space...

In any event this is relative becausde it explains to these ancients HOW God caused the 40 day rain to occur...(also 40 days and 40 nights might not be literal as it is used elsewhere in terms of judgment and development for God's purpose)

 

[Rick W]

Keeping the Sabbaths was a sign of the covenant between YHVH and the Children of Israel (Duet. 5) after Joseph...He had not ever made this Covenant agreement with anybody else even their fathers (Noah, SHem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or his sons...)

Therefore a Sign is something not of the natural order...keeping the Sabbath was not natural just like circumcision in the Abrahamic Covenant

The bow in the cloud had not occurred up until then....before Noah's day it had not "rained" but a mist went up from the ground (like a rain forest effect)

Somehow I think we agree.

 

[By Grace]

Exo 31:13 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.​

I have 2 questions about that post Sinthesis:

• Are you saying that Christians should observe the Sabbath?
• On what day of the week does the Feast of Pentecost fall?