The Five Points of Calvinism

[ivdavid]

If you think that when the Holy Spirit and the Christ Himself draws all men onto Himself that at least some men will not have the will to choose Him, then you must not know just how wonderful that Gospel message is to a sinner with a conscience.

Define this God's act of "drawing" - and I shall state my position on it.
Is this "drawing" the act of God calling All people to repent and believe to receive salvation(the universal offer) - or is it the very act of regenerating people by the power of the Holy Spirit(conversion)?

If it's the former, I too do believe God makes the Gospel offer available to each and every single person, and in that we find no disagreement. But it's not some men but rather I believe no man in the flesh inherently has the will to choose to obey Him. Not even me - I've heard the Gospel far too many times not to have believed until that hour when I was shown to be the sinner I truly was by God's merciful regenerative work.

If it's the latter, quite obviously not all are drawn then.

It seems as if even if you were willing to concede that man has no natural ability to obey the Gospel, you would set up a pseudo step for God to enable man to obey and then wait for man's response to that, where he can reject or accept, following which he is either left to perish or get regenerated. If I've got that right, then I'd like to see either scriptural references for this pseudo step which apparently is not the same as regeneration - or concession that this is indeed the very regenerative step that converts man completely around.

 

[FreeGrace]

Problem: The scriptures do in fact speak of a gift of God in the kingdom that is revocable--forgiveness (Matthew 18:23-35 NASB). IOW, B and C are not categorically equal. Your logic fails at that point.

It doesn't matter what you think the forgiveness is about. The point is you can't deny is it is a free gift and that Jesus said it is revocable in the kingdom. So, if you want to insist that Romans 11:29 is all inclusive of all gifts of God then you are creating a direct contradiction against what Jesus said that there is indeed a gift in the kingdom that is revocable. Your answer was then to decide that the context of the gifts was only that of Romans and that Romans speaks nothing of the free gift of forgiveness, but I showed you it does. You've run out places to run. Your doctrine has been shown to be false.


And as for your ABC logic, it does add up in regard to what I've been saying:

A = redemption
B = free gift of God
C = forgiveness of sin

If A = B, and it surely does as we both agree. And if A = C, and it surely does as I've proven to you, then B HAS TO = C. But your doctrine insists this plain logic is not true. Well, I showed you it is true.

Your logic is quite flawed. And this in no way refutes the simple logic that I have provided.

Let's try some simple and straightforward logic. It goes this way:

IF A = B, and B = C, THEN A = C. This is not debatable.

A = eternal life.
B = a gift of God.
C = irrevocable.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life (A) is a gift of God (B).
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (B) are irrevocable (C).

Therefore, eternal life A = C, or eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

There are scriptures written by both Paul and Jesus that discuss and contain the phrase "eternal life".

However, Romans 11:29 is not one of them.

Let's look again -

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

No mention of eternal life.

Sorry man, your doctrine is based completely on your opinion.

And eternal life is an irrevocable gift based on this scripture, will continue to be your opinion, until this scripture some contains the phrase "eternal life".
JLB

Let's try some simple and straightforward logic. It goes this way:

IF A = B, and B = C, THEN A = C. This is not debatable.

A = eternal life.
B = a gift of God.
C = irrevocable.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life (A) is a gift of God (B).
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts (B) are irrevocable (C).

Therefore, eternal life A = C, or eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I haven't ignored any scriptures containing the word gift.

What I also am not going to ignore is, Romans 11:29 doesn't contain the phrase "eternal life".

JLB

2 simple questions for you:

Is eternal life a gift of God, per Rom 6:23?

Are God's gifts irrevocable, per Rom 11:29?

 

[ivdavid]

Try reading why all men, who do not receive the truth, are not excused from condemnation. Calvinism blames God for that because He doesn't call them with 'Irresistible Grace'. But that is not what Paul said in Romans 1.

I find it quite unfair to have an entire post of mine ignored, which sought to negate this very misinterpretation. If perhaps you've missed it, could you go through it again and then we could discuss the points of conflict.

 

[WIP]

Closed for cleanup. There are too many repeated violations and I just haven't the time to go through it at the moment.