OK...I'm jumping in late here, and I'm not used to posting here, but...here goes...
...a little background. I was raised very liberal PCUSA (mother was an elder for a time). Both parents come from Calvinist backgrounds. Saved by Teen Challenge (God bless those people!), finally got saved 2 years ago. Now...I'm revisiting TULIP and such for a number of reasons, including my narrative of my own come to Jesus moment and subsequent progress as a Christian.
OK...(drum roll, please...)...here are some verses I consider as backing up some sort of predestination: John 10:27; Romans 9:13; Romans 8:28; Romans 9:18.
As a former Calvinist, I have had to study these passages in depth and have a quite different perspective on them now. Let me know what you think.
To make each of the manageable I will make a new post for each Scripture.
John 10:27
Let's include a little more context.
"
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:27-29 (ESV)
This particular text seems to imply a couple different points of the Calvinists' TULIP. Unconditional election, in that the Father gives these sheep to the son, and Perseverance of the Saints in that he says that no one can snatch them from his hand. This is one of the things that seems so natural for the Calvinist, that texts like this seem to fit in the system so easily.
However, the unspoken assumption is that "
those who the Father has given to [Jesus]," are the elect believers. I think that the identity of this group is actually a lot more specific, and it refers to his close disciples.
We learn this in the high priestly prayer.
"
since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." John 17:2 (ESV)
Here again we have a reference to those, "whom you have given him," and this reference is continued. Let's now quickly analyze some observations about this group.
1) Given eternal life to them. (John 17:2)
2) Manifested your name to them. (John 17:6)
3) They have kept Jesus word. (John 17:6)
4) They know that everything given to them is from the Father. (John 17:7)
5) They have heard, received and believed that the Father has sent him. (John 17:8)
6) His prayer is for them, not the world. (John 17:9)
7) They are in the world. (John 17:11)
8) While Jesus was with them, he kept them and not one of them has been lost except the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
9) The world has hated them. (John 17:14)
Now let's make some observations about the observations we made.
Observation #1:
All of these took place in the past, in reference to Jesus' remarks.
For example:
"
I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." John 17:6 (ESV)
The bolded words "manifested," and "kept," as well as many others are references to the past. The Greek word translated "manifested," is Ἐφανέρωσά which is in the Aorist tense, which signifies an action completed in the past. While the word, "kept," is from the word τετήρηκαν which is in the perfect tense, which indicates an action performed in the past with consequences going into the future. This would indicate that these people whom the Father have given, have already during Jesus' life kept his word and will continue to.
Observation #2:
That of this group described in the past, only one of them has been lost.
This person is identified as "the son of perdition," which I will contend must be a reference to Judas Iscariot. And this was to "fulfill Scripture." See the Scripture below.
"
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 13:18 (ESV)
This text perfectly fits Jesus' statements in the Highly Priestly Prayer, that he chose those close disciples, or rather he chose all those the Father had given him. Yet, one of them was selected for a different purpose, to fulfill the Scripture and to bring about his own crucifixion.
Observation #3:
The final observation which I think proves my case is this verse.
“
I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word," John 17:20 (ESV)
He transitions his prayer from being specifically for his close disciples, and now prays for all believers. If the first group, "those whom the Father has given to him," could be applied as true to all the elect, then this transition would make no sense. This makes a clear distinction, those chosen by God and given to Jesus to be his close disciples whom Scripture would be fulfilled through and also those who will believe through their word.
Conclusion:
It is easy to read oneself into the text, and make the Scripture seem to support a doctrine like Calvinism, but when we consistently analyze the text to see who it is really referring to, we can see that their interpretation doesn't fit.
It's refreshing to hear someone admit it and take the time to be polite.
