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The Five Points of Calvinism

Butch5 said:
I didn't really get into why Judas was given, my point revolves around John 6:39 and those given to Christ. According to Jesus Judas was one of them.
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I wouldn't say that, from a wholistic inspection of the words spoken about the group, who are said to belong to Father, as in they were genuine Jews, who are then given to the Son and that he should lose none of them but raise them up on the last day. Jesus certainly chose him though.

"Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John 6:70 (ESV)
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I wouldn't say that, from a wholistic inspection of the words spoken about the group, who are said to belong to Father, as in they were genuine Jews, who are then given to the Son and that he should lose none of them but raise them up on the last day. Jesus certainly chose him though.

"Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” John 6:70 (ESV)
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I'm not following you here. You wouldn't say what? I said that Judas was given, is that what you disagree with?
 
Butch5 said:
Do you think Judas had a choice in betraying Christ?
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I don't think Judas was some kind of puppet who was forced against his will to do these things. Yet, Jesus knew what was in him all along. The sovereignty of God particularly surrounding the events of the crucifixion is something to be noted.

"for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28 (ESV)

Indeed it says his betrayal was to "fulfill Scripture," as it says in John 17 and other places.
 
Butch5 said:
I'm not following you here. You wouldn't say what? I said that Judas was given, is that what you disagree with?
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I don't think that Judas shared in the gifts and Spiritual revelation that the others had received, which leads me to believe that he is not among the group that Jesus is referring to and praying for in John 17.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I don't think Judas was some kind of puppet who was forced against his will to do these things. Yet, Jesus knew what was in him all along. The sovereignty of God particularly surrounding the events of the crucifixion is something to be noted.

"for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28 (ESV)

Indeed it says his betrayal was to "fulfill Scripture," as it says in John 17 and other places.
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OK, that's pretty much where I am too.
 
Butch5 said:
I didn't really get into why Judas was given, my point revolves around John 6:39 and those given to Christ. According to Jesus Judas was one of them.
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I realize that, but you have to believe WHY Judas was given to Jesus. Judas was not presented to Jesus as a "believer", he was a part of the other eleven as a betrayer. There have also been talk about Judas being a thief because he held the purse. Your point of the disciples being raised up at the last day (John 6:39) Judas will be raised up, judged and cast into the lake of fire.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I don't think that Judas shared in the gifts and Spiritual revelation that the others had received, which leads me to believe that he is not among the group that Jesus is referring to and praying for in John 17.
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Do you have anything from Scripture that suggests this?
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I don't think that Judas shared in the gifts and Spiritual revelation that the others had received, which leads me to believe that he is not among the group that Jesus is referring to and praying for in John 17.
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Exactly Doulos. Judas was Satan's man, controlled by him.
Chopper said:
I realize that, but you have to believe WHY Judas was given to Jesus. Judas was not presented to Jesus as a "believer", he was a part of the other eleven as a betrayer. There have also been talk about Judas being a thief because he held the purse. Your point of the disciples being raised up at the last day (John 6:39) Judas will be raised up, judged and cast into the lake of fire.
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Chopper said:
I realize that, but you have to believe WHY Judas was given to Jesus. Judas was not presented to Jesus as a "believer", he was a part of the other eleven as a betrayer. There have also been talk about Judas being a thief because he held the purse. Your point of the disciples being raised up at the last day (John 6:39) Judas will be raised up, judged and cast into the lake of fire.
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I don't see Judas that way. I think he was a believer. John said,

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Joh 20:31 KJV)

I think Judas believed this. I just think that Judas wanted the things of the world more.
 
I think there may be a difference in the way we understand believe also. I think many Christians believe it is some sort of a spiritual thing, yet John says that it is believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. I don't think that is a spiritual thing per se.
 
Butch5 said:
Do you have anything from Scripture that suggests this?
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Well as early as John 6, we have Jesus referring to Judas as being a "devil," which would lead me to believe that he was never a true follower or believer and had not been given eternal life as was stated in John 17:2.

Make sense?

Do you believe that Judas as a genuine believer and fell away? If so, what makes you think so?

I try not to use this as evidence against OSAS, as I don't think it really stands on a close inspection, and this is too special a circumstance.
 
Butch5 said:
I think there may be a difference in the way we understand believe also. I think many Christians believe it is some sort of a spiritual thing, yet John says that it is believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. I don't think that is a spiritual thing per se.
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On the contrary, this is spiritual according to Jesus.

"And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 16:17 (ESV)

That the revelation which leads to belief that Jesus truly is the Messiah, and the Son of God is something that is spiritual and revealed by the Father and I would add through the Holy Spirit.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
Well as early as John 6, we have Jesus referring to Judas as being a "devil," which would lead me to believe that he was never a true follower or believer and had not been given eternal life as was stated in John 17:2.

Make sense?

Do you believe that Judas as a genuine believer and fell away? If so, what makes you think so?

I try not to use this as evidence against OSAS, as I don't think it really stands on a close inspection, and this is too special a circumstance.
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I understand what you're saying. I just don't see that as definitive. I see Judas as a believer who fell away. To me it's hard to conceive that he witnessed all that Jesus did and said and concluded that He was not the Christ. I know the Jews in general rejected Him but the disciples were insiders they saw and heard things that others did not. Jesus was a threat to the Jewish leadership so they had reason (not valid) to reject Him . Judas on the other hand didn't gain (or perceive to gain) anything by rejecting Him. So, Judas didn't stand to gain by denying that Jesus was the Christ. The Scriptures say that he loved money, to me this suggests worldly ties that he was unwilling to relinquish.

John said,

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Joh 20:31 KJV)

I think Judas believed this, but, was unwilling to let go of the world.
 
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Doulos Iesou said:
On the contrary, this is spiritual according to Jesus.

"And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 16:17 (ESV)

That the revelation which leads to belief that Jesus truly is the Messiah, and the Son of God is something that is spiritual and revealed by the Father and I would add through the Holy Spirit.
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Yes, Jesus said that to Peter. Here's how I see that. It had not really been revealed yet that Jesus was the Christ, remember Jesus told the demons not to make Him known. The passage I quoted from John was written many years, after Jesus' ministry to the Jews. As I said in an earlier post, I believe that every single person born is given some form of understanding by Christ, per John 1:9. So I don't believe there is anyone who is not in some way influenced by the Holy Spirit. When I said it's not a spiritual thing I didn't mean that there was no input from the Spirit at all. What I meant was that it is a real physical belief, not a sort mystical none material thing. Does that makes sense?
 
Chopper said:
Judas was given to Jesus as the one who would betray Jesus. It is God's choice to use men like Judas and Pharaoh either to show God's power or in Judas' case the job of betraying Jesus into the hands who would arrest Him.
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I believe election, which included Judas, per Jn 6:70, demonstrates that election is not about salvation, but rather, about service. Judas served as the betrayer, all of his own free will. :)
 
Doulos Iesou said:
I don't think Judas was some kind of puppet who was forced against his will to do these things. Yet, Jesus knew what was in him all along. The sovereignty of God particularly surrounding the events of the crucifixion is something to be noted.

"for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." Acts 4:27-28 (ESV)

Indeed it says his betrayal was to "fulfill Scripture," as it says in John 17 and other places.
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Yes, that was his service. What he was chosen to do. And recall Acts 17:26, which says that God places everyone in the exact place and time in history: "and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation"

iow, God places people, already knowing exactly what they will do. And no one has any excuse for the things they do. Judas acted freely from the evil that was in his scheming heart, Which God already knew.
 
Chopper said:
I realize that, but you have to believe WHY Judas was given to Jesus. Judas was not presented to Jesus as a "believer", he was a part of the other eleven as a betrayer. There have also been talk about Judas being a thief because he held the purse.
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That is found in John 12:6.

Your point of the disciples being raised up at the last day (John 6:39) Judas will be raised up, judged and cast into the lake of fire.
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Yessiree. Everyone will be raised up at the last day.
 
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Butch5 said:
I don't see Judas that way. I think he was a believer. John said,

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Joh 20:31 KJV)

I think Judas believed this. I just think that Judas wanted the things of the world more.
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What makes you think that Judas believed John 20:31? Maybe for another thread, but where in Scripture is there any evidence that demons can possess believers? Since the Holy Spirit does indwell believers, it seems impossible for any demon to possess the body of one who already has the indwelling Holy Spirit in residence.
 
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