[_ Old Earth _] The Flood is Biblical

[B]

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

This would only be possible if the world were flat.

Or they were on a magic mountain.

Or magic mushrooms. :

 

[willow the wip]

B

This is for you

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

 

[Barbarian]

Willow, where does it say that the Bible is the only authority, or even the highest authority for Christians?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Their is no argument this is a Christian Forum, so this is where People use a thing called the Bible, as the source of truth, for if those who dont believe it comment, then their argument is of the world the canal man cannot understand the nature or sprit of God to teach other then the Bible is unloving becouse where is then the eternal soul of that person going, this is invalid, as the word of God is the final authority on all matters.

so as to those who do not believe and accept it there is no argument God created the earth and yes the flood did happen.

as the Bible is the final authority then their is no real argument.

Good day to you sir.

I really have not seen a signficant argument to show that everything the bible says is ontologically accurate. So I can't believe that the bible is an authority.

 

[willow the wip]

The Bibleâ€â€For example, the New Testament clearly claims to be the only way by which a person can come to God (specifically, one must come through Jesusâ€â€John 14:6; 2 John 9; et al.). This establishes solid barriers against all who disagree with the person of Jesus depicted in the gospel accounts. Prior to New Testament times, Judaism carried the same policy. In the Old Testament, God always spoke against pagan religions and their followers. The religions of Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Canaan, Greece, and others are roundly attacked, condemned, and described in great detail as false and devilish.

Obviously, simply calling something “god†and worshipping it does not mean that it is acceptable to the God of the Bible. Jesus said that they who worship God must do so in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Amazing as it may seem to those who think that the God of the Bible approves of other religions, the apostles of Christ even condemned those in the Christian age who were going backward, trying to be saved by the Mosaic law, a religion that unquestionably centered on the same God as Christianity (Galatians 5:4). In addition, they even condemned their own Christian brethren if they were living wrongly (Acts 8:18-23; Galatians 2:11).

Thus, even if the different religions did comprehend the same God, worshipping the same God does not legitimize one’s religion or religious practices according to the Bible since the one true God must be worshipped properly, that is, as the Bible prescribes (Colossians 3:17). The Bible claims to be the uniquely acceptable religion before God, and specifically condemns any other as illegitimate. Whatever we say about Islam and Hinduism’s relationship to Christianity, we cannot say justifiably that biblical Christianity has any affiliation with them. Any superimposition of fellowship between them would be forced and unnatural.

The Bibleâ€â€In vivid contrast to this approach of having to take one man’s word for an entire religion and basing one’s eternal destiny on one person’s private visions, the Bible is rooted and grounded in objective historical eventsâ€â€things many thousands of people beheld. Its specific times, places, people, and events can be located in history. Archaeology, ancient history, geography, literature, etc., corroborate its details. These give the Bible the ring of authenticity, and tie it to reality outside the mind of any single person or any group of people.

The Bibleâ€â€The Christian system centers on the fact that God has come to Earth in a physical body and made a one-time sacrifice for sin (John 1:1-14; Philippians 2:5-9). The Bible says that the salvation of mankind was accomplished only through this act and that apart from it, man would be hopelessly lost in sin (John 3:16; Ephesians 1:7, et al.). The incarnation of the Word, along with His death and resurrection, combine to form the fundamental essential truth that defines Christianity (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Without it, Christianity would not exist.


I maintain that we should accept the Bible over other religious books because no book can amass the evidence for supernatural origin that the Bible can. No other book exhibits such profound evidence for inspiration. We should accept the Bible because:

1. It claims to be from God. That in itself does not prove its claim, but the claim is something we should look for. Would God send His revelation anonymously?


It is based in history, not in the subjective experience of one individual. That opens it to being tested. It can be proven or disproven.

It contains the highest and purest moral teachings. They remain unsurpassed for their simplicity, applicability, and profundity.


It contains prophecies that are made and fulfilled. They surpass the possibility of human or natural powers to foresee or bring about.

It has a sublime unity about it in every wayâ€â€doctrine, progression of thought, story line, theme, details, structure, etc.


It is accurate in every wayâ€â€historically, geographically, scientifically, etc. As diligently as skeptics have tried for centuries, there never has been one flaw or contradiction proven to be in the Bible that would establish that it is not what it claims to be. Yet, “to err is human.â€Â


It contains medical and scientific knowledge ahead of its time. The Bible did not partake of its contemporary medical and scientific ignorance.

It has had an immeasurably profound impact on the world and always in a positive way whenever faithfully practiced.

It has the best textual sources of any ancient book. That is, we can trace its history back to its beginnings more accurately, and with greater corroboration, than any major writing of the ancient world.

It contains a reasonable view of God, man, and truth.

It is indestructible. Its most powerful, rabid, and scholarly opponents have failed to do away with it.

It always is current. Last year the Book of the Month Club asked 2,000 of its readers what book most influenced their lives. The Bible was number one.

It addresses our fundamental questions about why we are the way we are, why suffering exists, where we came from, what our destiny will be, how the Universe began and how it will end, etc.

It fulfills our spiritual, social, psychological, and emotional needs.

It is incredibly brief, although it is set forth as a seminal book from the Creator. Men are notorious for their verbosity in such matters.

It is based on the testimony of thousands of witnesses throughout its history.

It portrays its heroes, flaws and all. It is unbiased in its treatment of history, unlike works of men praising their heroes.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1994/r&r9402a.htm

 

[cubedbee]

It is clear to everyone that you did not write that. Please make sure to give credit when you use the words of someone else.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1994/r&r9402a.htm

 

[willow the wip]

For example I will show you from the following article

http://fbg-church.org/lessons/GodsPlan/bible.htm

The Barbarian on the contary the Bible is a Very Jewish Book.

The Bible has both internal and external evidences to show it is the inspired Word of God. First let's understand just what the word inspired means. It comes from the Greek work "theopneustos" (

) used in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and literally means "God Breathed". Our English word traces back to the Latin word "inspirare" which means "to breath into".


However, we would not want to make a claim for the writers that they did not make for themselves. None credit themselves with what they wrote. For example, Moses said "And God spoke all these words to me saying…" (Exodus 20:1-17)

and Jeremiah said, "Now the word of the Lord came to me saying," (Jeremiah 1:4). Paul said, also, in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 that they (the Apostles) had received their words from the Spirit of God and in Galatians 1:11-12, he said that he had received the Gospel by revelation from Jesus Christ. Finally, Peter wrote


"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21)


God being the creator of all things set up the authority structure. He granted to Christ All Authority (Matthew 17:5; 28:18)


and Christ passed on certain authority on earth to the Apostles with the Holy Spirit to guide them (Matthew 18:18; John 16:13).


Apostles then wrote the words as breathed into them by the Holy Spirit for our learning (2 Thessalonians 3:14; 2 Timothy 4:1-2) and these words produce the faith in Jesus, The Christ (Romans 10:17).

The Bible provides the complete revelation of God. If complete, there is no need for additional revelations and no other sources of Spiritual guidance are required (2 Peter 1:3). In fact, it contains many warnings in this regard. Galatians 1:8-9 places a curse on anyone who preaches any other gospel and Revelation 22:18-19 tells us that God will take away our place in Heaven if we add or take away from His word, The Bible.

Their fore should not The Bible then be our sole authority in religious matters and our standard for determining our relationship to God ?

Paul summed it up in Hebrews 1:1-2 when he said: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world".

 

[willow the wip]

cubedbee I did look at the bottom of the article.

remember the board rules no troling I did post the article links you may need to take a closer look.

 

[Sophistress]

Why do you rely so heavily on links? Can't you articulate an argument yourself?

 

[willow the wip]

like i have said as the Bible is the final authority then their is no real argument.

end of story as you did not except my first explanation these 2 links back up what I say.

at the end of the day you will face ur maker.

 

[Wertbag]

Weren't you paying attention Syntax? Its obvious, the Bible says the Bible is true, therefore it must be. This is proven because the Bible says Jesus said the Bible was true, and as it had already said Jesus doesn't lie, then it must also be true.
Same way that ol' Jo Smith convinced millions that the book of mormon was ancient writings and therefore true...

Back to the original debate, Noahs flood. Its one of the most easily shot to pieces stories as it is illogical in so many ways. Lets try some basic maths as an example. If we say there were 50,000 animals, with the average size being similar to a sheep, and we know the average sheep drinks about 2 litres of water a day, we have 100,000 litres a day. Times the around 300 days they were in the Ark and you have requirements of 30 million litres of water. There are obvious storage issues and trouble keeping it from stagnating.
Example two: If we say only 10% of the animals were carnivores (probably be higher but to be safe aim low), and an average sheep sized carnivore would eat at least 3-4kg of meat a day (lets say 2kg to be safe), thats 10,000kg of meat a day, or over the 300 days 3000 metric tons of meat. And this was before refrigeration. Even just collecting and preparing that much meat would be a massive undertaking by todays standards, left alone 4000 years ago.
Example three: You have 8 humans looking after 50,000 animals. If we say they worked 16 hour days, 7 days a week for a year (barring the obvious exhustion that would hit pretty quick), we have 960 minutes of work per person or 7680 total working minutes (460800 seconds) or a grand total of just over 9 seconds per animal per day. In those 9 seconds you have to travel around the boat, collect and distribute feed, clean the waste products, and of course at some point look after your own needs of food and rest.

Its impossible from so many angles, the food, the boat, the ages of the people, the physics of the flood, the geology, collecting the spreading the animals. Even just the number of things to cause extinction of the animals (especially with only 2 of each) not to mention the human race (heat in the boat, travel to and from the boat, lack of food and care, disease, lack of excercise, carnivores, injury, inbreeding, breeding failures, lack of shelter afterwards, lack of clean water and food afterwards). The only answers seem to be heaping miracle upon miracle to make it happen, all of which aren't mentioned in the story.

 

[cubedbee]

cubedbee I did look at the bottom of the article.

remember the board rules no troling I did post the article links you may need to take a closer look.

You are a liar and trying to make me look bad. Take a very close look at the bottom of your post. It clearly says that you edited your post, and the time of the edit was after the time of my post.

So, what you did was read my criticism, went back and changed your original post, and then tried to claim that the link was there all along. What kind of character is that? How is purposefulyl decieving for the purpose of making yourself look good at all acceptable? Could you be any more hypocritcal?

 

[Asimov]

cubedbee I did look at the bottom of the article.

remember the board rules no troling I did post the article links you may need to take a closer look.

You are a liar and trying to make me look bad. Take a very close look at the bottom of your post. It clearly says that you edited your post, and the time of the edit was after the time of my post.

So, what you did was read my criticism, went back and changed your original post, and then tried to claim that the link was there all along. What kind of character is that? How is purposefulyl decieving for the purpose of making yourself look good at all acceptable? Could you be any more hypocritcal?

:smt079

Woopah!!! that's great cubedbee.

pwned!!

 

[Free]

Wertbag,

Lets try some basic maths as an example. If we say there were 50,000 animals, with the average size being similar to a sheep, and we know the average sheep drinks about 2 litres of water a day, we have 100,000 litres a day. Times the around 300 days they were in the Ark and you have requirements of 30 million litres of water. There are obvious storage issues and trouble keeping it from stagnating.

Please tell me you're joking. First, prove there were 50,000 animals (if you claim you only chose it as an example, you whole example is useless as proof of anything). Second, there was lots of water around. : Your whole post essentially says nothing.

 

[Asimov]

Please tell me you're joking. First, prove there were 50,000 animals (if you claim you only chose it as an example, you whole example is useless as proof of anything).

I'm assuming you hold that the flood is true, and that evolution is false. There are 2-3 million species of animal on this planet today...so roughly estimating, how many animals were on the ark?

Second, there was lots of water around. : Your whole post essentially says nothing.

You must not live near the ocean then. Because the ocean is salty, and undrinkable in terms of quenching thirst. "water water everywhere, and not a drop to drink".

 

[Wertbag]

Please tell me you're joking. First, prove there were 50,000 animals

I was actually using a number picked by biblical supporters who were trying to show the hundreds of thousands or millions of species would not be required, personally I can't see how the number would be anywhere near that low but decided to stick to the small numbers to point out the impossibility of the task. I'm not even saying 50,000 species, as they are pairs its only half that.

Second, there was lots of water around

The water outside was undrinkable, can you imagine the number of decomposing corpses in it? Billions of rotting bodies of people and animals, and before any technology like water fliters. While you might have been able to collect some rain early on, it only rained for 40 days theres still the rest of the year to worry about, and water doesn't keep without airtight storage or refridgeration, neither of which was available.
Its not just water you need to find but drinkable water, that is alot harder.

Your whole post essentially says nothing.

I've shown but a small selection of reasons for the impossibility of the story, if you can answer the numerous gaping flaws in the fable then please do. If you would like bullet pointed reasons, a couple of dozen more reasons why its fake or more definition on the already raised points I'll be happy to supply.

 

[Asimov]

Please tell me you're joking. First, prove there were 50,000 animals

I was actually using a number picked by biblical supporters who were trying to show the hundreds of thousands or millions of species would not be required, personally I can't see how the number would be anywhere near that low but decided to stick to the small numbers to point out the impossibility of the task. I'm not even saying 50,000 species, as they are pairs its only half that.

In some cases (as with the 'clean' animals, there were 14 animals, or 7 pairs.

 

[willow the wip]

like i said cubedbee your in breach of braking the rules one of the admins will explain it to you.

maybe you should try and have a look look next time before you make personal comments about me when you dont personally know me.

If the admins felt that I was being deceptive they would tell me them selves.

since your not the admin it would not be your place.

 

[Asimov]

like i said cubedbee your in breach of braking the rules one of the admins will explain it to you.

maybe you should try and have a look look next time before you make personal comments about me when you dont personally know me.

If the admins felt that I was being deceptive they would tell me them selves.

since your not the admin it would not be your place.

awwww.....caught lying so now you have to run behind the mods.

 

[Wertbag]

You must not live near the ocean then. Because the ocean is salty, and undrinkable in terms of quenching thirst. "water water everywhere, and not a drop to drink".

Obviously Tuatha'an Noah had a desalinisation plant beside his refrigeration unit. I think he had the front of the boat with the cooling system and low temperatures required for the penguins and polar bears, the centre of the boat more temperate and the rear with heating units for all the warm living creatures.
I'm thinking the boat was like the tardis (phone booth from Dr Who), the boat may have only looked 400 feet on the outside but was actually the size of several warehouses inside. Level 1 50,000 animals with automated feeding. Level 2 30 million litres of pure water in airtight barrels. level 3 sleeping quarters, library and heli-pad.
Ah ha, while the Bible only said 8 people it didn't mention the robot crew... makes about as much sense as everything else...