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Bible Study The Foundation.

No. It is not.

The Sadducees and Pharisees did not have the complete revelation of God as the Church has been given. After Jesus' resurrection, many Sadducees and Pharisees became believers.(Acts 6:7)

Are YOU an expert in Hebrew and Greek? Are you an expert theologian? Is everyone an expert by reason of possession of a copy of the scriptures in a language he can read?

If so, why has God placed preachers and teachers in the Church? (Eph 4:11)
Yes, Of which I am one. And He placed us in The Body to correct, to teach, to minister to the Saints. To guard the word of God from error as pillars of truth of the Church. We are to suffer persecution for the word of God ( of which I have.). ( The Epistle to Ephesians ) And yes, they had the complete revelation of God, but they rejected it . The mystery of the Church was that the Gentile was to be part of the Church. (The epistle to Rome) Especially Chapters 10 & 11.
I have studied Greek and very little Hebrew. But it was not needed, because the Church is taught by the Spirit. Every part of it. If there is a question in words, we have plenty of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts for word interpretation.
 
Jim says: "Not everyone has the intellectual training to interpret the meanings of scripture."[
/QUOTE]

And I stand by that statement.

[QUOTE="turnorburn, post: 1156024, member: 189"
]Jesus never once said to call on the intellectuals in your community to get the truth

Neither did He suggest that you accept the conclusions and beliefs of someone who is demonstrably stupid.

So you would trust your eternal life to the conclusions of a functionally illiterate person with an IQ of 80 because he is led by the Spirit into all truth?

You've never heard anyone say that some absolutely stupid idea was "right there in the Bible"?

I was told by a 7th Day Adventist, who read his Bible daily, that the body is the soul; that God's spirit is His breath; the the Archangel Michael is Jesus, and that people don't really die, they just fall asleep. He's a Christian believer. Is that what the Holy Spirit told you also?

While practically anyone can understand enough of the scripture to be saved. God established special categories of ministers called "evangelist, prophets, apostles, pastors and teachers" in the church "to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 4:11-13 RSV)

If every believer has the ability to achieve the stature of the fullness of Christ by reading our Bibles and being led by the Holy Spirit, then why did GOD bother to put those ministries in the church?

And since it is GOD put those ministries in the Church, who are you to say we don't need them?

I didn't say we needed to go to "intellectuals." There are God-ordained ministers whose calling, Holy Ghost gifting,(1Co 12:29) and responsibility is to teach the truth of scripture. Why do you so boldly proclaim that they aren't necessary and God is wrong? Do you know better than God what the Church needs? Apparently you think that to be the case.

But what do I know compared to you?


iakov the fool
:boing
 
Yes, Of which I am one. And He placed us in The Body to correct, to teach, to minister to the Saints. To guard the word of God from error as pillars of truth of the Church. We are to suffer persecution for the word of God ( of which I have.). ( The Epistle to Ephesians ) And yes, they had the complete revelation of God, but they rejected it . The mystery of the Church was that the Gentile was to be part of the Church. (The epistle to Rome) Especially Chapters 10 & 11.
I have studied Greek and very little Hebrew. But it was not needed, because the Church is taught by the Spirit. Every part of it. If there is a question in words, we have plenty of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts for word interpretation.

Then please, explain to me why God bothered to place teachers in the church as an essential ministry (Eph 4:11-13) if they are unnecessary because all believers can get the truth directly from the Holy Spirit? Why buy retail if you can get it wholesale?

And if the Holy Spirit leads believers into all truth, why are there so many different "truths"? Is the Holy Spirit confused? Are the Mormons and JWs right in claiming that GOd keeps releasing "new light" in a progressive revelation?

iakov the fool
:dunce
 
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My sweet Brother Chopper, Paul had a goal in the sufferings he experienced for our sakes to build the body of Christ; the Church, but as we read in Rom 8:17 there is a distinct difference in being an heir of God which all in Christ are, and that of becoming a joint heir with Him.

We read in Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer (or endure) for his sake.
And Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. What could Paul possibly want here when he already has Jesus as his Savior? Joint heir ship, or being counted worthy of winning Jesus as bridegroom?

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer , we shall also reign with him . . . There is much purpose in our growth in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus (2 Pet 3:18).
Paul also said this at his coming departure in 2 Ti 4:7-8, I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2 Tim 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
My thoughts :wave2
.
Curious with your interpretation of Rom 8:17 "of being a distinct difference" can I then apply that to 1 Cor 6:3 and believe that only joint heirs are spoken of in this verse and not heirs?
the reason I ask is the word "and" normally is not used to show distinct difference between two things.
 
Well said, Jim, but not a popular concept in some Christian circles that God has provided gifted teachers in the church to teach the Word (Eph 4:11-12 ESV).

I'm pleased that I have sat under the ministry of, been taught by, and learned from some gifted and trained Bible teachers, seminary professors, etc. However, I consider that Acts 17:11 (ESV) should always be our guiding instruction, 'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true'.

If Paul had to be checked out by how his teaching compared with Scripture, how much more should that apply to all of us on this forum, pastors and teachers in the local church, and seminary/university teachers of Scripture.

It does seem to be a trend in some quarters to denigrate the specialist in biblical studies. I don't find that happening with carpenters, mechanics, accountants, pathologists and cardiologists in my region.

Oz

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Thank you for encouraging my behavior.

jim
 
Then please, explain to me why God bothered to place teachers in the church as an essential ministry (Eph 4:11-13) if they are unnecessary because all believers can get the truth directly from the Holy Spirit? Why buy retail if you can get it wholesale?

And if the Holy Spirit leads believers into all truth, why are there so many different "truths"? Is the Holy Spirit confused? Are the Mormons and JWs right in claiming that GOd keeps releasing "new light" in a progressive revelation?

iakov the fool
:dunce
 
Then please, explain to me why God bothered to place teachers in the church as an essential ministry (Eph 4:11-13) if they are unnecessary because all believers can get the truth directly from the Holy Spirit? Why buy retail if you can get it wholesale?

And if the Holy Spirit leads believers into all truth, why are there so many different "truths"? Is the Holy Spirit confused? Are the Mormons and JWs right in claiming that GOd keeps releasing "new light" in a progressive revelation?

iakov the fool
:dunce
Jim, you can not separate the two . Before anyone is placed in a position in the Church, he is endowed with the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a believer not having the Holy Spirit. Every born again believer has a gift, given by the sovereign Holy Spirit as He wills. There is no such thing as a believer not having a gift. (1 Cor. 12: 1-17). Then God himself gives those gifted believers to the Church. (1 Cor. 12: 18-31) Read the Scriptures Jim. We do not read the Scriptures to act out the parts as in a play. But we read the Scriptures to understand the change in our lives, that God has done with us. Comparing the Spiritual change in this vessel with the Spiritual and glorious word of God.
 
Good for you chopper. You hit the problem with series teachers right on the target. One thing about pastor/teachers, God never let me get settled into a teaching or pastors sermon that did not bring glory to God in Jesus Christ. For unless you are born again, you will say Amen to any hireling, not knowing the difference between the pride of the flesh or the Joy of the Spirit. This is a hard understanding for pew warmers, that are not lead by the Spirit, but are lead by the flesh. I too had Godly teachers at Moody Bible Institute. But I never took just their word, but searched the Scriptures, Then God gave the increase.

After me and my family were treated unscripturally and by a fleshly lead pastor, I took my children and wife out and searched for another place to worship. At that time in my life I was filled with the Spirit but not mature in the doctrine and purpose of God in my life. One day, two LDS young girls knocked on my door. I thought maybe this was an answer to prayer, for I was seeking a good church to worship at. They came a couple a days a week and me and my wife studied the Scriptures together with them. After several weeks we were asked to join their church. It went like this: A gaggle of women came to the apartment to officiate us in as members. (I do not know why there were never any men?) They started out talking about their Church and what they believed, near the end of the meeting, one of the women said, "all that Jesus was, was just a good man,". Instantly starting at my feet, a warm surge of energy flowed through my body, and I stood up and blurted out, "I don't believe a thing you said!", for up to that point, I was ready to join. They were astonished, and so was I. It was not me, it was Christ in me. They all left saying that Satan was in me. I asked my wife, What happened? She said, I don't know, but when she said that Jesus was just a good man, I looked at you and I could see and instant change in your continuance. The Spirit of the Lord has worked in me in many other trials. But it was the Spirit that lead me through trials and errors. But you know Chopper, as much as the Spirit has guided me and answered prayers, I still am not always sure if He will answer the next prayer. (the interference of the flesh). But I get stronger and have more assurance every time I ask. And I do not ask for just myself, most of my request of the Lord are corporate. (covers more than just me and mine).
That's a wonderful testimony of the Holy Spirit's control when it's needed. I was called to be the pastor of the second Baptist Church. The first one was a student pastorate in 1977 from the Bible College I was attending. I met a man at Bible College who came for a week of a Bible Conference. His name was Dr. Delma O. Lowery from Harriman, Tenn. He was a graduate professor at Pensacola Bible College in Florida. He was a preacher/teacher of strictly books of the Bible verse by verse. I was so impressed with his method of revealing Truth, I decided right then that I would preach like that, and I have never stopped.

In any of the Bible studies that I have led in CF.net have been verse by verse from chapter 1 to the end. That way, I cover the whole counsel of God and purposely cover all aspects of sinful behavior.

As a Pastor, I have had similar instances when the Holy Spirit would cause me to rebuke someone abruptly. I loved your encounter with the LDS crowd. Thank God that a great guy like you was not sucked into that cult.

I love you Brother, and enjoy your posts very much.
 
Neither did He suggest that you accept the conclusions and beliefs of someone who is demonstrably stupid.

So you would trust your eternal life to the conclusions of a functionally illiterate person with an IQ of 80 because he is led by the Spirit into all truth?

You've never heard anyone say that some absolutely stupid idea was "right there in the Bible"?

I was told by a 7th Day Adventist, who read his Bible daily, that the body is the soul; that God's spirit is His breath; the the Archangel Michael is Jesus, and that people don't really die, they just fall asleep. He's a Christian believer. Is that what the Holy Spirit told you also?

While practically anyone can understand enough of the scripture to be saved. God established special categories of ministers called "evangelist, prophets, apostles, pastors and teachers" in the church "to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" (Eph 4:11-13 RSV)

If every believer has the ability to achieve the stature of the fullness of Christ by reading our Bibles and being led by the Holy Spirit, then why did GOD bother to put those ministries in the church?

And since it is GOD put those ministries in the Church, who are you to say we don't need them?

I didn't say we needed to go to "intellectuals." There are God-ordained ministers whose calling, Holy Ghost gifting,(1Co 12:29) and responsibility is to teach the truth of scripture. Why do you so boldly proclaim that they aren't necessary and God is wrong? Do you know better than God what the Church needs? Apparently you think that to be the case.

But what do I know compared to you?


iakov the fool
:boing

i accept this conclusion from the great Shepherd Himself..

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

No need for this Jim "But what do I know compared to you?" I've been going by Gods word here..
 
Curious with your interpretation of Rom 8:17 "of being a distinct difference" can I then apply that to 1 Cor 6:3 and believe that only joint heirs are spoken of in this verse and not heirs?
the reason I ask is the word "and" normally is not used to show distinct difference between two things.
Hi Brother Roro1972, and thanks for your question. My understanding is that as believers our entire walk in Christ is judged as Jesus walks among the candlesticks (Rev 1:13), and Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.

With this in mind we can read Jesus’ verdict of the Church as He proclaims five of the seven locations of the one Church in need of repentance. E.g., Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Now just what is being removed from its place, and I’ll use the example of Israel, because we read in 1 Cor 10:11, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

(Exodus 28:9-10) To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods of Aaron’s shoulders were placed in order of birth. Rueben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, & Benjamin.
(Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel (Num 2:33). Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Rueben, Simeon, Gad, Ephrain, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, & Naphtali.
All this has to do with reward; not our security in Christ.

We are in fact before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus and He does commend two of the seven churches that exhibit the qualities of joint heirs. The first is Smyrna of Rev 2:10. Ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. This is the walk of those that suffer or endure.
Next is Philadelphia. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Here we find them that remain alive until Jesus’ coming for them.
In Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 we see certain members of the Church with Jesus when He begins His thousand year reign, and yet we see others coming out of great tribulation in Rev 7:14.

In 1 Cor 6:3, will our judgment of angels be that of agreeing with Jesus as judge casting Satan into the Lake of Fire, etc? Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
:wave2
 
Jim, you can not separate the two . Before anyone is placed in a position in the Church, he is endowed with the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a believer not having the Holy Spirit. Every born again believer has a gift, given by the sovereign Holy Spirit as He wills. There is no such thing as a believer not having a gift. (1 Cor. 12: 1-17). Then God himself gives those gifted believers to the Church. (1 Cor. 12: 18-31) Read the Scriptures Jim. We do not read the Scriptures to act out the parts as in a play. But we read the Scriptures to understand the change in our lives, that God has done with us. Comparing the Spiritual change in this vessel with the Spiritual and glorious word of God.

You have completely avoided answering my question.

WHy did God place TEACHERS in the church is all we need is the scriptures and the Holy Spirit?
 
Hi Brother Roro1972, and thanks for your question. My understanding is that as believers our entire walk in Christ is judged as Jesus walks among the candlesticks (Rev 1:13), and Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.

With this in mind we can read Jesus’ verdict of the Church as He proclaims five of the seven locations of the one Church in need of repentance. E.g., Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Now just what is being removed from its place, and I’ll use the example of Israel, because we read in 1 Cor 10:11, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

(Exodus 28:9-10) To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods of Aaron’s shoulders were placed in order of birth. Rueben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, & Benjamin.
(Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel (Num 2:33). Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Rueben, Simeon, Gad, Ephrain, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, & Naphtali.
All this has to do with reward; not our security in Christ.

We are in fact before the Judgment Seat of Christ Jesus and He does commend two of the seven churches that exhibit the qualities of joint heirs. The first is Smyrna of Rev 2:10. Ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. This is the walk of those that suffer or endure.
Next is Philadelphia. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Here we find them that remain alive until Jesus’ coming for them.
In Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 we see certain members of the Church with Jesus when He begins His thousand year reign, and yet we see others coming out of great tribulation in Rev 7:14.

In 1 Cor 6:3, will our judgment of angels be that of agreeing with Jesus as judge casting Satan into the Lake of Fire, etc? Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
:wave2
Thank you for the knowledge and time of your answer. I dont like being a pest but your answer brought up another question in my mind so may I ask;
I now believe all Christians are to be taken pre trib. your answer makes me think not. so i am confused once again.
 
Thank you for the knowledge and time of your answer. I dont like being a pest but your answer brought up another question in my mind so may I ask;
I now believe all Christians are to be taken pre trib. your answer makes me think not. so i am confused once again.
Dear Brother Roro1972, you are certainly not a pest, and again I thank you for your interest. I'll give something on the subject of a select company of believers I believe to the joint heirs with Christ because they suffered, and or endured with Him in their spiritual walks.
And just to help any just entering this post catch up I'll repeat two scriptures.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

John is caught forward to the Lord’s Day and is given different viewpoints according to Rev 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
He is told three of the viewpoints in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
For the time being, I’ll concentrate on future things, or the hereafter from the perspective of the beginning of the Lord’s Day.

Rev 4:1. John is here invited into heaven to see the things hereafter. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This is Jesus receiving His own throne. The four beasts or living ones of Rev 4:11 confirm that this is Jesus: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Please notice that this scene shown to John is just prior to the tribulation beginning, and Jesus has some saints with Him in heaven.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Who are these elect? Rev 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Again realize that these are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation. The one group represent the dead in Christ who rose first, and the second them that remained unto the coming of the Lord in the air for them.

In fact we read in Rev 3:10, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (or patiently kept His word), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (or tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I'll shorten this post somewhat by going directly to the next group John sees reaching heaven.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Washed in the blood? They are certainly of the Church.

There is yet another group to reach heaven even after these mentioned so far, and they are the 144,000 seen in Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Notice that this mount Sion is not on earth, but it is the heavenly Jerusalem. Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Blessings to you in Jesus' name. :wave2
 
You have completely avoided answering my question.

WHy did God place TEACHERS in the church is all we need is the scriptures and the Holy Spirit?

Jim,

James 3:1 (NIV) states, 'Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly'.

Dr Craig Blomberg of Denver Seminary has written a short but penetrating article, 'Why Do Teachers Face Stricter Judgment?' (BibleStudyTools). Blomberg helpfully articulates why teachers expect the stricter judgment:

Why are these sins more serious when committed by teachers rather than by other people? (1) More people may be affected. (2) A closer relationship of trust may be violated. (3) The very person who should be the student's best model fails in that capacity. (4) The resulting hurt may be greater. Apologies can be made and errors can be corrected but the damage from untruthful or unloving words may not be able to be fully eradicated. Forgiveness may, in some instances, come quickly, but trust always takes longer to be re-earned. The stricter judgment against which James warns may, therefore, at least in large part, have to do with negative consequences of the teachers' sins in this life.

There would not be a stricter judgment on God's gift of teachers to the church if there was not a stricter responsibility on teachers to be teaching correctly. We dare not diminish the role of God's gift of teachers in the body of Christ.

Oz
 
Jim,

James 3:1 (NIV) states, 'Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly'.

Dr Craig Blomberg of Denver Seminary has written a short but penetrating article, 'Why Do Teachers Face Stricter Judgment?' (BibleStudyTools). Blomberg helpfully articulates why teachers expect the stricter judgment:



There would not be a stricter judgment on God's gift of teachers to the church if there was not a stricter responsibility on teachers to be teaching correctly. We dare not diminish the role of God's gift of teachers in the body of Christ.

Oz

No arguments here!

We have a rebellious spirit in the USA ( the country was founded in rebellion by rebels) and don't want anyone telling us anything. That's why a grammar school dropout thinks his opinion of what his KJV Bible says is as good as and probably better than what any PhD or ThD has to say because he's got his "Sola Scriptura" and the HOLYGhost, by gosh! (HaaaarUMPH!)

If you watch this thread (tedious, I know) you will most assuredly note that I will not get an answer to my question; "Why did God put teachers in the Church if we don't need them because the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth?"

I may get several responses but no cogent answers.

Bless you!

jim
 
No arguments here!

We have a rebellious spirit in the USA ( the country was founded in rebellion by rebels) and don't want anyone telling us anything. That's why a grammar school dropout thinks his opinion of what his KJV Bible says is as good as and probably better than what any PhD or ThD has to say because he's got his "Sola Scriptura" and the HOLYGhost, by gosh! (HaaaarUMPH!)

If you watch this thread (tedious, I know) you will most assuredly note that I will not get an answer to my question; "Why did God put teachers in the Church if we don't need them because the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth?"

I may get several responses but no cogent answers.

Bless you!

jim

Jim,

And in 54 years as a believer, I've heard some very weird things promoted in services and cell groups (now called growth groups - as numbers shrink) all in the sentiment of, 'The Holy Spirit told me so'.

That's why the gift of discernment is so critical in today's churches: 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world' (1 John 4:1 ESV).

1 Cor 12:10 (NIV) speaks of 'distinguishing between spirits'. Oh how we need it today to discern the fake from the real, the genuine Holy Spirit ministries from the false ministries, allegedly from the Holy Spirit.

I was in a house church meeting recently, where many were speaking in tongues without any interpretation. I said to the leader in another room that 'I am a foreigner' here because I cannot understand what is being said. Then I quoted these verses:
'There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church' (1 Cor 14:10-12 ESV).

I said that these verses state clearly that I was a foreigner to the tongues speaker and the tongues speaker was a foreigner to me because there was no gift of interpretation taking place. His immediate response was, 'That's your interpretation'. What a joke. You do not have to be a Greek grammar teacher to know what this text means. But this fellow said he had the Holy Spirit speaking through him and my objection was nothing more or less than my interpretation.

This is the kind of thing that can lead to chaos in a church when the church needs to be reigned in to do things 'decently and in order ' (1 Cor 14:40 ESV).

Alleged Holy Spirit manifestations without biblical parameters can lead to disorderly conduct in meetings - but all in the name of the Holy Ghost.

Get the drift?

Oz
 
That's why the gift of discernment is so critical in today's churches: 'Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world' (1 John 4:1 ESV).

1 Cor 12:10 (NIV) speaks of 'distinguishing between spirits'. Oh how we need it today to discern the fake from the real, the genuine Holy Spirit ministries from the false ministries, allegedly from the Holy Spirit.

Again, absolutely!

I said that these verses state clearly that I was a foreigner to the tongues speaker and the tongues speaker was a foreigner to me because there was no gift of interpretation taking place. His immediate response was, 'That's your interpretation'.

Thus identifying himself as totally unqualified to be a house church presbyter. (Which is what a "growth group" leader should be.)

It is very telling that the groups are being called "growth groups". That is an indication that numbers (especially those people who write big checks) are more important than discipleship. Discipleship has all but disappeared from the church. One assistant pastor once told me that he wanted "hassle-free" Christianity. That's fine for infants. I wonder someone like Polycarp, had he heard such nonsense on his way to martyrdom, would have wept or slapped this assistant "pastor."

About 30 years ago, Keith Green wrote a song called "Asleep in the Light." It is even more apropos today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3vnQSr7eA

ASLEEP IN THE LIGHT
Do you see, do you see, all the people sinking down,
Don't you care, don't you care, are you gonna let them drown,
How can you be so numb, not to care if they come,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done.

Oh Bless me Lord, bless me Lord, you know it's all I ever hear,
No one aches, no one hurts, no one even sheds one tear,
But He cries, He weeps, He bleeds, and He cares for your needs,
And you just lay back and keep soaking it in,
oh, can't you see it's such sin?

'Cause He brings people to your door,
And you turn them away, as you smile and say,
God bless you, be at peace, and all Heaven just weeps,
Cause Jesus came to your door, you've left Him out on the streets.

Open up, open up, and give yourself away,
You've seen the need; you hear the cry, so how can you delay,
God's calling and you're the one,but like Jonah you run,
He's told you to speak, but you keep holding it in,
Oh, can't you see its such sin?

The world is sleeping in the dark, That the church can't fight, cause it's asleep in the light,
How can you be so dead, when you've been so well fed,
Jesus rose from the grave, and you, you can't even get out of bed,
Oh, Jesus rose from the dead, come on; get out of your bed.


How can you be so numb, not to care if they come, you close your eyes and pretend the job's done,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done, Don't close your eyes; don't pretend the job's done.

Come away, come away, come away with Me, My love,
Come away, from this mess, come away with Me, My love.
(Lyrics courtesy of Last Days Ministries, Keith Green encouraged everyone to duplicate and distribute and use his works)

Young people are drawn to ISIS because, as evil as they are, they stand for something and are willing to leave home and family to fight and die for it. Are the disciples of Kreflow Dollar and Joel Olsteen being taught to be willing to leave home and family to fight and even die for the salvation of the enemies of God. Does anyone teach what it means to fight the good fight?

We argue about nuances of doctrine here in these forums. I don't think God is too concerned with our opinions of what He thinks. I imagine He looks at us like children dressing up in their parents' clothes and playing "grown ups."

It breaks my heart but I don't know what I can do. My wife and I were missionaries in Russia for a couple of years helping establish a Bible College for the unregistered Pentecostal Church. It ruined me for "normal" Christianity when we came home. It seemed like they were just "playing church." The first church service I attended turned out to be an anniversary celebration for the pastor. Everyone was glad-handing and back-slapping. One person asked me if I had been in Alabama. I said, "No; Russia." I went in, said hello to a woman who I knew worded with poor children and then I left. It was like being at a birthday party in the midst of the Blitz. Total cluelessness.

I'm considering buying a small piece of desert land, building a bee-hive hut and becoming an eremitic monk.


jim
 
Again, absolutely!

Thus identifying himself as totally unqualified to be a house church presbyter. (Which is what a "growth group" leader should be.)

It is very telling that the groups are being called "growth groups". That is an indication that numbers (especially those people who write big checks) are more important than discipleship. Discipleship has all but disappeared from the church. One assistant pastor once told me that he wanted "hassle-free" Christianity. That's fine for infants. I wonder someone like Polycarp, had he heard such nonsense on his way to martyrdom, would have wept or slapped this assistant "pastor."

About 30 years ago, Keith Green wrote a song called "Asleep in the Light." It is even more apropos today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL3vnQSr7eA

ASLEEP IN THE LIGHT
Do you see, do you see, all the people sinking down,
Don't you care, don't you care, are you gonna let them drown,
How can you be so numb, not to care if they come,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done.

Oh Bless me Lord, bless me Lord, you know it's all I ever hear,
No one aches, no one hurts, no one even sheds one tear,
But He cries, He weeps, He bleeds, and He cares for your needs,
And you just lay back and keep soaking it in,
oh, can't you see it's such sin?

'Cause He brings people to your door,
And you turn them away, as you smile and say,
God bless you, be at peace, and all Heaven just weeps,
Cause Jesus came to your door, you've left Him out on the streets.

Open up, open up, and give yourself away,
You've seen the need; you hear the cry, so how can you delay,
God's calling and you're the one,but like Jonah you run,
He's told you to speak, but you keep holding it in,
Oh, can't you see its such sin?

The world is sleeping in the dark, That the church can't fight, cause it's asleep in the light,
How can you be so dead, when you've been so well fed,
Jesus rose from the grave, and you, you can't even get out of bed,
Oh, Jesus rose from the dead, come on; get out of your bed.


How can you be so numb, not to care if they come, you close your eyes and pretend the job's done,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done, Don't close your eyes; don't pretend the job's done.

Come away, come away, come away with Me, My love,
Come away, from this mess, come away with Me, My love.
(Lyrics courtesy of Last Days Ministries, Keith Green encouraged everyone to duplicate and distribute and use his works)

Young people are drawn to ISIS because, as evil as they are, they stand for something and are willing to leave home and family to fight and die for it. Are the disciples of Kreflow Dollar and Joel Olsteen being taught to be willing to leave home and family to fight and even die for the salvation of the enemies of God. Does anyone teach what it means to fight the good fight?

We argue about nuances of doctrine here in these forums. I don't think God is too concerned with our opinions of what He thinks. I imagine He looks at us like children dressing up in their parents' clothes and playing "grown ups."

It breaks my heart but I don't know what I can do. My wife and I were missionaries in Russia for a couple of years helping establish a Bible College for the unregistered Pentecostal Church. It ruined me for "normal" Christianity when we came home. It seemed like they were just "playing church." The first church service I attended turned out to be an anniversary celebration for the pastor. Everyone was glad-handing and back-slapping. One person asked me if I had been in Alabama. I said, "No; Russia." I went in, said hello to a woman who I knew worded with poor children and then I left. It was like being at a birthday party in the midst of the Blitz. Total cluelessness.

I'm considering buying a small piece of desert land, building a bee-hive hut and becoming an eremitic monk.

jim

Jim,

It's a few years since I sang that Keith Green song. It's prophetic of what is happening with the evangelical church in my part of the world. It's either alive with songs and messages of 'fluff' or asleep and lifeless. It reminds me of the lukewarm church of Rev 3:14-21 (NLT).

The title of this thread is 'The Foundation'. What foundation do you consider will be strong enough to build strong Christians today? Why don't you suggest 6 points of foundational Christianity? Here is an example of mine:

  1. Built on the foundation of the apostles, prophets and Christ (Eph 2:20 ESV);
  2. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who equip the saints for the work of ministry (Eph 4:11-12 ESV);
  3. Every member ministry (1 Cor 12:12-27 ESV; Rom 12:3-8 ESV);
  4. Each Christian is expected to exercise his/her God-given ministry (1 Cor 14:26 ESV); but this is in an environment where there are
  5. Gifts of discernment in every group of Christians (Hebrews 5:14; I Cor 12:10; Acts 5:3-6; 16:16-18; and 1 John 4:1);
  6. Believers submit in love to Christ and to one another (James 4:7 ESV; Eph 5:21 ESV).
I hope the eremitic monk idea was tongue in cheek.:screwloose2

Your Aussie mate from Brissy,
Oz
 
No arguments here!

We have a rebellious spirit in the USA ( the country was founded in rebellion by rebels) and don't want anyone telling us anything. That's why a grammar school dropout thinks his opinion of what his KJV Bible says is as good as and probably better than what any PhD or ThD has to say because he's got his "Sola Scriptura" and the HOLYGhost, by gosh! (HaaaarUMPH!)

If you watch this thread (tedious, I know) you will most assuredly note that I will not get an answer to my question; "Why did God put teachers in the Church if we don't need them because the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth?"

I may get several responses but no cogent answers.

Bless you!

jim
And then there are some like me; who do not have the academic abilities as you and others here; and we depend on you for teaching that we too can know the truth.
 
Dear Brother Roro1972, you are certainly not a pest, and again I thank you for your interest. I'll give something on the subject of a select company of believers I believe to the joint heirs with Christ because they suffered, and or endured with Him in their spiritual walks.
And just to help any just entering this post catch up I'll repeat two scriptures.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

John is caught forward to the Lord’s Day and is given different viewpoints according to Rev 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
He is told three of the viewpoints in Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
For the time being, I’ll concentrate on future things, or the hereafter from the perspective of the beginning of the Lord’s Day.

Rev 4:1. John is here invited into heaven to see the things hereafter. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This is Jesus receiving His own throne. The four beasts or living ones of Rev 4:11 confirm that this is Jesus: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Please notice that this scene shown to John is just prior to the tribulation beginning, and Jesus has some saints with Him in heaven.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Who are these elect? Rev 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Again realize that these are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation. The one group represent the dead in Christ who rose first, and the second them that remained unto the coming of the Lord in the air for them.

In fact we read in Rev 3:10, Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (or patiently kept His word), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (or tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I'll shorten this post somewhat by going directly to the next group John sees reaching heaven.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Washed in the blood? They are certainly of the Church.

There is yet another group to reach heaven even after these mentioned so far, and they are the 144,000 seen in Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. Notice that this mount Sion is not on earth, but it is the heavenly Jerusalem. Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Blessings to you in Jesus' name. :wave2
last night after my first question I watched a video about the New Covenant and when I went back to the front page I was signed out some how. So I just really want to thank you for helping me to grow in Christ.
 
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