Bible Study The Foundation.

[Douglas Summers]

You have completely avoided answering my question.

WHy did God place TEACHERS in the church is all we need is the scriptures and the Holy Spirit?

I did answer it Jim. You are not going to get the answer you want to hear, For ALL the churches of this generation are not of or by Christ leadership. The order of the churches of this age are after the First Church established in Rome. They have followed after The Roman Church's order of a Clergy over a laity as a permanent order of a Holy Church. Christ never sanctioned such an order nor does He approve of it. Teachers/ pastors, are appointed by God to minister to His Heritage,(not lording over it). In the body of Christ they are appointed by God. Not by your own decision or what you decide you want to be. ( For those, who by the flesh) want to master over others will be judged more severely for the responsibility they took upon themselves , when they can not even hold their own tongue in check. For they praise God with the tongue, and with the same tongue they curse God. But in the man not of God, these things do not ascend from above, but is earthly and demonic, for only the wisdom from above is the wisdom that makes the man of God the fruit of God's righteousness, bringing peace and making peace. So do not decide you want to be a teacher....it is for God to appoint and add to the Church....not a decision of the flesh.

So God appointed teachers to minister to His heritage (not lording it over them) till ALL OF US BECOME ONE NEW MAN.
1 Corinthians chapter 12; James Chapter 3; Eph. 2: 14-18
The teacher, pastor is to bring everyone up to his own knowledge and understanding. Not leaving them in the pews. For all of us (Christ Body) are an equal brotherhood of priest and kings. Being able to teach and minister to others till we all reach the same maturity and brotherhood. (Heb, 6: 1-2) BTW Jim, you make light of the Spirit of God in us and try to group us with a bunch of actors faking the filling of the Spirit. Be careful, insulting God The Holy Spirit, it can become an eternal sin. If you have the Spirit, you should know these things. Again, Read the Scriptures. (1 John 2: 23-29; 4: 2-6)

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus never once said to call on the intellectuals in your community to get the truth

Matters of eternal life were settled in heaven when Jesus said "It Is Finished"

So why did God bother to give 'teachers' to the body of Christ 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ' (Eph 4:11-12 ESV)? They are God-given teachers or shepherd-teachers. Why? Why would God want teachers to be in the body to equip and to build up believers?

Seems as though we have a problem in our day just like that in the first century, 'In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!' (Heb 5:12 NIV). So these new believers needed teach them milk and then move to solid food. Same issue today. But there is such a reluctance in this thread to affirm the need for Bible teachers.

James warns us that not many of us should be teachers (James 3:1 ESV) and that there can be false teachers among us (2 Pet 2:1 ESV). Nevertheless, the Bible affirms the need for God-given teachers who must all be subjected to the Acts 17:11 (ESV) criterion.

So do you place Bible teachers among intellectuals??

So what's the meaning of, 'It is finished' in John 19:30 (NIV), 'When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit'?

What is translated as, 'It is finished', is one Greek verb, tetelestai. How will you and I know what that verb means and to what it refers?

Oz

 

[Douglas Summers]

So why did God bother to give 'teachers' to the body of Christ 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ' (Eph 4:11-12 ESV)? They are God-given teachers or shepherd-teachers. Why? Why would God want teachers to be in the body to equip and to build up believers?

Seems as though we have a problem in our day just like that in the first century, 'In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!' (Heb 5:12 NIV). So these new believers needed teach them milk and then move to solid food. Same issue today. But there is such a reluctance in this thread to affirm the need for Bible teachers.

James warns us that not many of us should be teachers (James 3:1 ESV) and that there can be false teachers among us (2 Pet 2:1 ESV). Nevertheless, the Bible affirms the need for God-given teachers who must all be subjected to the Acts 17:11 (ESV) criterion.

So do you place Bible teachers among intellectuals??

So what's the meaning of, 'It is finished' in John 19:30 (NIV), 'When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit'?

What is translated as, 'It is finished', is one Greek verb, tetelestai. How will you and I know what that verb means and to what it refers?

Oz

Hi Oz, When God gives a teacher to the body of Christ (of which we are) That body is already regenerated with the Holy Spirit. We receive the The Spirit as soon as we and I trusted in Christ. A teacher is not preaching the Gospel to the Body or Church of Christ. The teacher is an exhorter and teaches on questions of doctrine and order in the Church. And the answer to the last sentence in this post is, "how will you and I know what the verb means and what it refers to. Study to show thyself approved. (2 Tim. 2: 15-18) And the same way Paul did when he was called. (Gal. 1: 10-24; and 2: 1-19) . But all of us in the Church are to preach the Gospel where ever we are called to. But since The first Roman Church began, it has carried a system of one priest appointed by men to preach whatever and assign rituals and ceremonies and traditions, even unto this very day.
And Oz, anyone who knew that God in Jesus Christ was a ransom for our sins, knows that the debt was paid. He had finished the work of God to satisfy the demand of the Law.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Why don't you suggest 6 points of foundational Christianity? Here is an example of mine:

1. Built on the foundation of the apostles, prophets and Christ (Eph 2:20 ESV);
2. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers who equip the saints for the work of ministry (Eph 4:11-12 ESV);
3. Every member ministry (1 Cor 12:12-27 ESV; Rom 12:3-8 ESV);
4. Each Christian is expected to exercise his/her God-given ministry (1 Cor 14:26 ESV); but this is in an environment where there are
   
5. Gifts of discernment in every group of Christians (Hebrews 5:14; I Cor 12:10; Acts 5:3-6; 16:16-18; and 1 John 4:1);
6. Believers submit in love to Christ and to one another (James 4:7 ESV; Eph 5:21 ESV).

Your Aussie mate from Brissy,
Oz

I like your list.

1. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in every church
2. Actually equipping the saints.
3. Set expectations that members of each congregation live out Jesus' teaching. (Like the Sermon on the mount)
4. Discipleship. (Not just classes. Field training.)
5. Churches set the example of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick, visiting the prisoner, sheltering the stranger.
6. Teach prayer and fasting, simple lifestyle, generosity.

People who call themselves "Christian" should be very good Christ-impersonators.

How's that?

I hope the eremitic monk idea was tongue in cheek.

Not entirely. There's a lot of desert around here. I could get a piece of land very cheaply and build a dry-stone, bee-hive, corbeled hut.

Or use an old pickup truck with a camper shell.........

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

And then there are some like me; who do not have the academic abilities as you and others here; and we depend on you for teaching that we too can know the truth.

Don't believe anything I say. Check me against the scriptures. (and everyone else too!)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

For ALL the churches of this generation are not of or by Christ leadership. The order of the churches of this age are after the First Church established in Rome. They have followed after The Roman Church's order of a Clergy over a laity as a permanent order of a Holy Church. Christ never sanctioned such an order nor does He approve of it.

Right! It them doggone KATH-licks!

(Question for self: "Why do I bother?")

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

I like your list.

1. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in every church Jim. This is the body of Christ, not individuals lording it over the Church, so there is no SCHISM in the body so that the same body has the same care for one another.
2. Actually equipping the saints. Every member of the body are saints...not just some. The body is edifying itself with all the gifts corporately, resulting in profitable representation of The One Christ. (No special class of Believers)
3. Set expectations that members of each congregation live out Jesus' teaching. (Like the Sermon on the mount)Expectations are for men. Not for the body of Christ, because the body is bonded together by the Holy Spirit of God, not by individuals (1 Cor. 12: 25-26)
4. Discipleship. (Not just classes. Field training.) We are not disciples of Christ, for we now are Son's of God by rebirth, and have access to the Father directly through Christ. And we are so connected to Christ by His Spirit and to one another, that Christ and all it's members share in the victories and share in the pain of persecution. It is the body of Christ that is joined together by His Spirit, and all it's parts that mature's itself by the Gifts of the Holy Spirit
5. Churches set the example of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick, visiting the prisoner, sheltering the stranger. This comes from the Spirit of Grace in the believer that covets the one thing that Christ was "charity" (Love). As the believer has His Spirit also.
6. Teach prayer and fasting, simple lifestyle, generosity.You do not teach these things to the regenerated believer. They are natural and hereditary of the new man. The body is to be an example of these things to the world.

People who call themselves "Christian" should be very good Christ-impersonators. No worry, God knows those who are His.



How's that? If one is not born again. He has no part of the body of Christ. Read and STUDY the 1st. Epistle to the Corinthians. Every answer I gave you is in there.



Not entirely. There's a lot of desert around here. I could get a piece of land very cheaply and build a dry-stone, bee-hive, corbeled hut.

Or use an old pickup truck with a camper shell......... I could not find this in Scripture?

jim

 

[Jim Parker]

Read and STUDY the 1st. Epistle to the Corinthians. Every answer I gave you is in there.

Thanks for that suggestion.

Oh, and by the way, you missed every point of my post.

Maybe you should try a bit more reading and studying. It couldn't hurt!

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

anyone who knew that God in Jesus Christ was a ransom for our sins, knows that the debt was paid. He had finished the work of God to satisfy the demand of the Law.

Enlighten me.
Exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied?
Chapter and verse(s) please.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Enlighten me.
Exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied?
Chapter and verse(s) please.

iakov the fool

Enlighten me.
Exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied? (Rom. 8: 1-4) This is the result of no condemnation (Christ work upon the cross through God by faith). Not to try and achieve no condemnation by the works of the flesh.
(Gal. 3: 13-14) Christ died upon the Cross, Why? For the wages of sin are death (Rom. 6:23) and there was no righteous man on earth, not even one. (Rom. 3: 10-20) The demand of that law or penalty is Death! (Rom. 5: 12)). So by God's grace and charity (love). So God in Jesus Christ paid the demand of the law for us (Rom. 5:6-8). For all who believe by Faith. (Rom. 5:1) Because He has satisfied the righteousness or demand. of the Law. (Rom. 8: 1-4). Jim, I am not trying to be antagonistic. If you can not recognize that without the Holy Spirit. Everything else is self willed worship. The intrusion of self will into the sphere of divine authority. BTW The First Roman Church was not Catholic at that time.
Chapter and verse(s) please.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied?
Chapter and verse(s) please.

(Rom. 8: 1-4) This is the result of no condemnation (Christ work upon the cross through God by faith). Not to try and achieve no condemnation by the works of the flesh.

Those verses do not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.

(Gal. 3: 13-14) Christ died upon the Cross, Why? For the wages of sin are death

Those verses do not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.

(Rom. 6:23) and there was no righteous man on earth, not even one.

That verse does not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.

(Rom. 3: 10-20) The demand of that law or penalty is Death!

Those verses do not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.
And they say absolutely nothing about any penalty of death.

(Rom. 5: 12)). So by God's grace and charity (love). So God in Jesus Christ paid the demand of the law for us

That verse does not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.

(Rom. 5:6-8). For all who believe by Faith.

Those verses do not identify exactly what demand of the Law was satisfied.

(Rom. 5:1) Because He has satisfied the righteousness or demand. of the Law.

That verse says absolutely nothing about the law.

Jim, I am not trying to be antagonistic. If you can not recognize that without the Holy Spirit. Everything else is self willed worship. The intrusion of self will into the sphere of divine authority.

I didn't get the impression that you were trying to be antagonistic. But, you have not answered the question. Nothing of what you said and none of the verses you referenced tell me anything about exactly what demand of the Law Jesus satisfied.

To identify a demand of the Law you need to cite the Law itself. The Law is found in Exodus through Deuteronomy, not in the New Testament.

The Laws are often introduced as follows:
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD,
Lev 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws which the LORD made between Himself and the children of Israel on Mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.


BTW The First Roman Church was not Catholic at that time.

From the historical records, with the exception of a few items, like Purgatory, the primacy of the bishop of Rome, the filioque, and the immaculate conception, everything that you think is "Catholic" was in place by the end of the first century and was the standard practice of the entire Church from the English Channel to India.

I like your zeal, by the way.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz, When God gives a teacher to the body of Christ (of which we are) That body is already regenerated with the Holy Spirit. We receive the The Spirit as soon as we and I trusted in Christ. A teacher is not preaching the Gospel to the Body or Church of Christ. The teacher is an exhorter and teaches on questions of doctrine and order in the Church. And the answer to the last sentence in this post is, "how will you and I know what the verb means and what it refers to. Study to show thyself approved. (2 Tim. 2: 15-18) And the same way Paul did when he was called. (Gal. 1: 10-24; and 2: 1-19) . But all of us in the Church are to preach the Gospel where ever we are called to. But since The first Roman Church began, it has carried a system of one priest appointed by men to preach whatever and assign rituals and ceremonies and traditions, even unto this very day.
And Oz, anyone who knew that God in Jesus Christ was a ransom for our sins, knows that the debt was paid. He had finished the work of God to satisfy the demand of the Law.

Douglas,

Yes, a Bible teacher is one who proclaims true doctrine (1 Tim 6:2-3 ESV) and corrects false doctrine (2 Tim 4:1-18 NIV). However, the verses I quoted to you from Eph 4:11-12 (ESV) indicate that the apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastor-teachers are equippers, to equip the believers for their work of ministry.

And there will be false teachers amongst us (2 Pet 2:1-3 NIV) who will be judged by the listeners according to Scripture (Acts 17:11 NIV).

I asked: 'How will you and I know the meaning of the verb and to what it refers?' You referred me to 2 Tim and Galatians. I don't disagree, but to understand the meaning of a Greek verb, a person needs an understanding of Greek grammar, including the meaning of Greek words in lexicons and word studies (such as publications such as the Kittel & Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 vols. Eerdmans). Do you read Greek and understand Greek grammar to be able to do this?

Oz

 

[AirDancer]

This is not aimed at any particular poster here ... just a reminder that Bible Study forum is NOT a debate forum.

 

[Jim Parker]

The Foundation! Can all of us agree on one thing? That the Church itself is built upon one foundation, Jesus Christ The Rock? (1 Cor. 3: 10-11) (Matt. 7: 24-25) (Acts 4: 10-12) (Matt. 16: 13-19) (Dan. 2: 42-45) (1 Sam. 2:2)

Yes

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Yes

iakov the fool

AMEN>

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't have to be a bible expert to know God.
When I met God, I didn't even own a bible.


I have a friend who speaks to a pastor before making any move.
Well then, what does it mean to have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ?
Do I need to go ask someone what I should speak to my husband about or if I should go see a movie with him? Or if we should go out to dinner? Don't I know what will disturb him? Isn't it the same thing?

Two comments:

I like to say that there are two churches.
The churchj - it's a bldg, a community of people, who knows where they stand.
Then there's The Church - The Body of Christ. Believers who are united in their belief that Jesus, as God saves us and we are a part of the Body.

Yes. Sometimes we act as though it's the Church that's saving us and not Jesus. In fact, I'm suspect of churches that tell me they're the one true church. The only one, true church is the one above with the captial C.

I like Jeremiah 31:33-34

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

I have a friend who speaks to a pastor before making any move.

Maybe your friend wants attention.

Jesus alone saves us.

But that's not the end of it.

One of my favorite passages again: Eph 4:11-15 (NKJV)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head; Christ.

"Getting saved" is the beginning of a journey, not the end. The journey is one of growth from "baby Christian" to the "measure and stature of the fullness of Christ" who is God the Word made flesh. We are on the road to being just like Him. (And, yes, I did mean to use the words "just like.")

The apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers that God put in the church were put there to guide us along the way to our predestination; "to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Ro 8:29)

When people regularly mistake you for Jesus, you're almost there.

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

Closed to look at or edit references to RCC ...The TOS
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.has this to say...
RCC is not up for discussion .. not pro or con... just dont do it..the reason is simple ... people dont seem to be able to keep it together on that topic..