Kaileymarie
Member
What about the nephilim?
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What about the nephilim?
V
Vanguard
Guest
Possibility, but they are not mentioned until Genesis 6:1, just before the flood. There's no mention of them (or anyone else other than Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel) in Genesis 4.
In all fairness, my three question are "trick" questions, though I did not mean for them to be. The Bible does not tell us who Cain and Seth married, where they came from or anything else. But, that's why I wanted to have an open discussion on the topic. I'd like to get various viewpoints from different religions/denominations/countries.
I still stand by my opinion that people were created all over the world by God, at the same time (if not before) as Adam and Eve, but the OT of the Bible we study is written from a Hebrew [Jewish] perspective. They are not concerned with the rest of the world. I may be wrong, but it explains a lot.
originally posted by felix :
CHAPTER 4.
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. * 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. * * 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. * 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: * 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
yes, much time passes in between these accounts, 100's of years or more, the earth populated quickly with people living such long lives, they were relatives so to speak.
CHAPTER 4.
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. * 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. * * 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. * 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: * 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
yes, much time passes in between these accounts, 100's of years or more, the earth populated quickly with people living such long lives, they were relatives so to speak.
V
Vanguard
Guest
That is generally my take on it. Lifespans in the 100s of years. I am also one that does not take Genesis literally, word for word.
However, if you take Genesis literally, there is no mention of any other offspring prior to Seth. The Bible even tells us that Seth was born in direct replacement of Abel. After Seth is born, then and only then does the Bible talk about further offspring from Adam and Eve.
Which leads us back to the original line of questions. Where did they come from?
(Hint: Genesis doesn't say. It is 100% theory at this point. I am interested in those theories.)
F
felix
Guest
The account is literal. If some information is not provided does not mean it is not there. For example, Abraham's father had two wives and Sarah is through the other wife. Just because Terah's wives were not mentioned does not mean he is not married.
Gen 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, "I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."
Gen 4:2 And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. (ESV)
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Gen 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
Gen 5:4 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. (ESV)
Notice that there is no mention of Cain and Abel and that 5:4 states "he had other sons and daughters." The wording of both passages allows for the possibility that there could have been female children either prior to Cain, in between Cain and Abel, or prior to Seth. Clearly there were some after.
Gen 4:2 And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground. (ESV)
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
Gen 5:2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
Gen 5:4 The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.
Gen 5:5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died. (ESV)
Notice that there is no mention of Cain and Abel and that 5:4 states "he had other sons and daughters." The wording of both passages allows for the possibility that there could have been female children either prior to Cain, in between Cain and Abel, or prior to Seth. Clearly there were some after.
Definitely not a fact and it is not even implied in the verses you quoted. Your's is a fundamental misunderstanding of the very general creation account in chapter 1 and the account in chapter 2 which details the creation of man mentioned in chapter 1.
Even then, it doesn't necessarily imply that either. There are a number of ways of looking at that passage, at least one of which is consistent with a literal reading.
Just saying. I don't want to drag this off-topic.
For the record:
I think it is a legitimate question that Christians and anyone serious about the truth should feel free to wrestle with. Perhaps we can just say that some like to think deeply about things in Scripture, and some particularly about these oddities, and some are fine not to bother with them at all.
So let's continue and keep it on topic.
(How's that Mike? :D )
I think it is a legitimate question that Christians and anyone serious about the truth should feel free to wrestle with. Perhaps we can just say that some like to think deeply about things in Scripture, and some particularly about these oddities, and some are fine not to bother with them at all.
So let's continue and keep it on topic.
(How's that Mike? :D )
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V
Vanguard
Guest
Oh I agree 100%. I grew up on the literal account of Genesis, and I certainly do not dismiss it as one possibility.
I'm one (now, at this point in my life) that likes to look at the different perspectives. That's what hermeneutics is all about. Just because I have a theory (or agree with someone's else's) does not mean I am right or wrong, just entitled to my opinion. My opinion will offend some people. Others may learn from it. I have certainly learned some things by way of this website! This is why I like apologetics/theology so much...it allows us to explore the Bible on a deeper level.
Someone else mentioned it, and the untold story is quite possibly that other offspring were created before/during Cain and Abel, and with lifespans in the 100s of years, people were able to start populating all over the place. Genesis doesn't say it, but nor can we discard it.
V
Vanguard
Guest
Good question! What's your opinion?
That might be one of those unanswered questions that is subject to speculation. This is a Christian forum, so I try to keep things in a Christian (or Judaism if OT) based view. History has some answers based off other cultures, but I am not going to post them as they conflict with Christian doctrines.
Edit: unless the mods permit those views in this thread alone, for the sake of comparison?
loveendures
Member
I am new to this forum. The Concept of Grace, freedom and Love has challenged my rational life.
Story of Cain and Abel is intriguing to me. Hard to clearly understand.
Let me please ask you the following questions
I do not see the idea of offering/sacrifice ( conditional) mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Genesis and it appears only after A and E were expelled from the garden. Does this mean it is a human concept ?
If God had clearly favored Abel how come he was killed ?
If the offering of Cain was not good enough why he was not killed and in fact he was even protected with a mark ?
"God says if you do what is right will you not be accepted. But if you do not dowhat is right, sin is crouching at your door, it will even possess you. " What is your take ? Do you think this is the real definition of Sin ?
Thank You
Story of Cain and Abel is intriguing to me. Hard to clearly understand.
Let me please ask you the following questions
I do not see the idea of offering/sacrifice ( conditional) mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Genesis and it appears only after A and E were expelled from the garden. Does this mean it is a human concept ?
If God had clearly favored Abel how come he was killed ?
If the offering of Cain was not good enough why he was not killed and in fact he was even protected with a mark ?
"God says if you do what is right will you not be accepted. But if you do not dowhat is right, sin is crouching at your door, it will even possess you. " What is your take ? Do you think this is the real definition of Sin ?
Thank You
V
Vanguard
Guest
Welcome to CF! Those are good questions as well. Let's explore them one by one.
You are right in your observation that sacrifices/offerings are not mentioned prior to Genesis 4. Nor will you find any commandment from God that sacrifices/offerings must be made prior to Cain and Abel performing those "rituals." Why did they do it then, is subject to speculation. You won't find the answer in Genesis. My theory is that the Bible never claims to be a textbook, answering every how/why we can come up with in our modern way of thinking. There are answers from other cultures, but they are outside the realm of Christianity.
Adam and Eve had already been banished from Eden because of sin. The implication is that they were subject to negative human emotions, such as jealousy, hatred, greed. Their offspring would be too. Cain got mad at Abel after their offerings, but the Bible does not clearly say that is why he killed him. All that it tells us is that they were in a field and Cain killed Abel. Nor does it give us a timeline of how long after their offerings that Cain killed Abel. We assume Cain killed Abel out of anger/hatred/envy. The think tank question is, did Cain know what death/murder was at the time?
Two different parts to that question.
The first is, why was Cain not killed if his offering was not good enough. Only God knows can answer that question.
The second is, why was he protected by a mark? Because he feared for his life via those he encountered, so God put a mark [of protection/warning] on Cain. What was the mark? Only God knows. Who did he have to fear is another question.
What we do know is that Genesis is a Hebrew [Jewish] account of creation, an early history of the world, and their lineage. However, if you study Judaism, you'll find that they tend to interpret things differently than Christians. There are overlaps and parallels, but there are also differences.
Who is right or wrong has been the subject of debate for 2,000 years.
You are right in your observation that sacrifices/offerings are not mentioned prior to Genesis 4. Nor will you find any commandment from God that sacrifices/offerings must be made prior to Cain and Abel performing those "rituals." Why did they do it then, is subject to speculation. You won't find the answer in Genesis. My theory is that the Bible never claims to be a textbook, answering every how/why we can come up with in our modern way of thinking. There are answers from other cultures, but they are outside the realm of Christianity.
Adam and Eve had already been banished from Eden because of sin. The implication is that they were subject to negative human emotions, such as jealousy, hatred, greed. Their offspring would be too. Cain got mad at Abel after their offerings, but the Bible does not clearly say that is why he killed him. All that it tells us is that they were in a field and Cain killed Abel. Nor does it give us a timeline of how long after their offerings that Cain killed Abel. We assume Cain killed Abel out of anger/hatred/envy. The think tank question is, did Cain know what death/murder was at the time?
Two different parts to that question.
The first is, why was Cain not killed if his offering was not good enough. Only God knows can answer that question.
The second is, why was he protected by a mark? Because he feared for his life via those he encountered, so God put a mark [of protection/warning] on Cain. What was the mark? Only God knows. Who did he have to fear is another question.
What we do know is that Genesis is a Hebrew [Jewish] account of creation, an early history of the world, and their lineage. However, if you study Judaism, you'll find that they tend to interpret things differently than Christians. There are overlaps and parallels, but there are also differences.
Who is right or wrong has been the subject of debate for 2,000 years.
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Have you ever noticed the word replenish in Genesis 1:28. Who are we to know when God created the Earth and possibly made others before Adam and Eve. Just because something is not made clear in the Bible doesn't mean there is no truth to it. It just means it has no relevance for us to learn anything from it. Who's to say God didn't create others and sent them out into the world. Take Cain and Abel for instance. Who is to say they were the first born of Adam and Eve. There could have been many before they were born, but again, no relevance to us except for Cain and Able to learn from. There are many things that have no clear understanding in the first few chapters of Genesis like how long was the earth without form or how many days or even years did it take God to finish and rest. I'm sure seven days were not the same as our 24 hr days. Just something to think about is all.
in trying to understand Genesis i try to put myself in the mind frame of the individuals who first penned it
i look at the blue sky, imagining water in the shape of a vault above me
i try to take what it tells me about the world and translate it into my current world view
i find that the essence of the message remains
God's Word is the eternal foundation of this world (however it is imagined to be by us), creating and maintaining it
now i have no issue with evolution, not all fact is contained in the Bible
so that the process of shaping dust into man took hundreds of millions of years and that this is one day for God is not unreasonable to me
God took a rib and fashioned a woman
He took what was on the outside of Adam and it became other
the "outside" of Adam was the "inside" Eve
in that moment mankind became self-and-other
that is why we think in words and images because it is intended that we communicate, that two become one
so in my view there would have been lots of ppl
one of them, then two, then more entered into relationships with God found themselves bound in love
but then Adam disobeyed God, blamed the other, who blamed the snake
(i still don't understand why the snake was there in the Garden - seems a little less than perfect to my inadequate understanding)
ultimately a wedge was drive between self and other
since then, where we look for love from the other, we find domination
and sin continued to spread into human existence
"Adam" then to my thinking was a real person
as "he" is now in the diversity each of "his" incarnations
we suffer the consequences of sin, because in our depths, that is who we are
not saying this means anything to anyone else, but it makes sense to me
i look at the blue sky, imagining water in the shape of a vault above me
i try to take what it tells me about the world and translate it into my current world view
i find that the essence of the message remains
God's Word is the eternal foundation of this world (however it is imagined to be by us), creating and maintaining it
now i have no issue with evolution, not all fact is contained in the Bible
so that the process of shaping dust into man took hundreds of millions of years and that this is one day for God is not unreasonable to me
God took a rib and fashioned a woman
He took what was on the outside of Adam and it became other
the "outside" of Adam was the "inside" Eve
in that moment mankind became self-and-other
that is why we think in words and images because it is intended that we communicate, that two become one
so in my view there would have been lots of ppl
one of them, then two, then more entered into relationships with God found themselves bound in love
but then Adam disobeyed God, blamed the other, who blamed the snake
(i still don't understand why the snake was there in the Garden - seems a little less than perfect to my inadequate understanding)
ultimately a wedge was drive between self and other
since then, where we look for love from the other, we find domination
and sin continued to spread into human existence
"Adam" then to my thinking was a real person
as "he" is now in the diversity each of "his" incarnations
we suffer the consequences of sin, because in our depths, that is who we are
not saying this means anything to anyone else, but it makes sense to me
n2thelight
Member
Genesis 1:27"So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them."
So it was on this sixth day that both man and woman of all races were formed, and each after their kind. Yet all forms of mankind red, yellow, black [brown], or white are all created in the image of God.
Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, ad over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
Genesis 1:29 "And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
Notice nothing mentioned of the tree in the midst of the Garden
Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made."
Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The word "formed" is used [molded as clay] to describe the making of Adam. When man was formed he became a living creature. In the Hebrew it is "eth-ha-adham", which refers to the particular person "Adam", (not a generic form for man). The "Ha-Adham" [Adam] is the man that Christ will come forth through. Matthew 1:1-17, and Luke 3:23-38 both give us our documentation that this is true and did come to pass. Paul states in I Corinthians 15:21-23 that sin came into the world by the first Adam, but by the second Adam [Christ} all shall be made alive. Christ is the first fruits [to come out of the grave to everlasting life], and then "they that are Christ's at His coming". There was death by the first Adam, and salvation by Christ Himself.
Genesis 2:8 "(And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed."
In this "Eden" which God had formed, He put "eth-ha adham" [not any man, but "the Adam"]. This is the man "Adam" formed from clay in Genesis 2:7, and not the "male and female" of the races of the sixth day creation of Genesis 1:27-28. Eden is a special place that God made, following the seventh day of rest, for a special man called Adam.
God first created the wilderness, then the creatures, followed by male and female of all races; and then He rested. This Adam is of the eighth day creation, when God formed Adam, when Cain went to the wilderness, he married into the sixth day creation's offspring.
Genesis 2 is not a recap of Gen 1 as most think.......
So it was on this sixth day that both man and woman of all races were formed, and each after their kind. Yet all forms of mankind red, yellow, black [brown], or white are all created in the image of God.
Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, ad over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
Genesis 1:29 "And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
Notice nothing mentioned of the tree in the midst of the Garden
Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made."
Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
The word "formed" is used [molded as clay] to describe the making of Adam. When man was formed he became a living creature. In the Hebrew it is "eth-ha-adham", which refers to the particular person "Adam", (not a generic form for man). The "Ha-Adham" [Adam] is the man that Christ will come forth through. Matthew 1:1-17, and Luke 3:23-38 both give us our documentation that this is true and did come to pass. Paul states in I Corinthians 15:21-23 that sin came into the world by the first Adam, but by the second Adam [Christ} all shall be made alive. Christ is the first fruits [to come out of the grave to everlasting life], and then "they that are Christ's at His coming". There was death by the first Adam, and salvation by Christ Himself.
Genesis 2:8 "(And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed."
In this "Eden" which God had formed, He put "eth-ha adham" [not any man, but "the Adam"]. This is the man "Adam" formed from clay in Genesis 2:7, and not the "male and female" of the races of the sixth day creation of Genesis 1:27-28. Eden is a special place that God made, following the seventh day of rest, for a special man called Adam.
God first created the wilderness, then the creatures, followed by male and female of all races; and then He rested. This Adam is of the eighth day creation, when God formed Adam, when Cain went to the wilderness, he married into the sixth day creation's offspring.
Genesis 2 is not a recap of Gen 1 as most think.......
handy
Member
This is an interesting discussion....
I think that this theory is disproved by Genesis 2:5 "Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground."
Since there was no ripe fruits, nuts or veggies (and there was no death so animals were not eaten... no animal was eaten until after the flood) if there were men outside the garden, they were starving. This was the purpose of God planting the Garden in the first place, so that His creation would have something to eat. Besides, the text clearly states there were no men.
Also, I think the idea that God created other men and women on day 6 then created Adam and Eve on day 8 is negated by Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day..."
Since Adam and Eve are part of the "all" that is in the earth, this text teaches us that they were created within the 6 days of creation.
I don't necessarily view Genesis 100% literally, for instance, I think the days of creation very probably were not 24 hour time periods... but I really don't buy into the various theories out there that claim that there were other people besides Adam and Eve that were created.
I think that this theory is disproved by Genesis 2:5 "Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground."
Since there was no ripe fruits, nuts or veggies (and there was no death so animals were not eaten... no animal was eaten until after the flood) if there were men outside the garden, they were starving. This was the purpose of God planting the Garden in the first place, so that His creation would have something to eat. Besides, the text clearly states there were no men.
Also, I think the idea that God created other men and women on day 6 then created Adam and Eve on day 8 is negated by Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day..."
Since Adam and Eve are part of the "all" that is in the earth, this text teaches us that they were created within the 6 days of creation.
I don't necessarily view Genesis 100% literally, for instance, I think the days of creation very probably were not 24 hour time periods... but I really don't buy into the various theories out there that claim that there were other people besides Adam and Eve that were created.
V
Vanguard
Guest
Interesting observation, and one I have considered.
Genesis 1:26-31 does not state any specific humans, just that they were created and told to go multiply. Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden don't come into play until Genesis 2. If this is the case:
1. Cain would have reason to fear banishment.
2. Cain and Seth would have women to marry.
3. There would not have to be any incest.
One interpretation is the literal account: ALL that is in them. However, another interpretation is that it is referring to planetary and astral bodies. No where does the Bible claim to be a textbook on history or exact science. Just something to consider.