Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

The Genesis Account

Donations

Total amount
$1,642.00
Goal
$5,080.00
no animal was eaten until after the flood

I found this interesting. I really couldn't find anywhere in Genesis where they were actually eating animals before the flood, but I think they did eat animals before the flood.


What do you make of this?

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:" -Genesis 4:4
 
Interesting observation, and one I have considered.

Genesis 1:26-31 does not state any specific humans, just that they were created and told to go multiply. Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden don't come into play until Genesis 2. If this is the case:

1. Cain would have reason to fear banishment.
2. Cain and Seth would have women to marry.
3. There would not have to be any incest.

But that doesn't resolve the conflict brought about by the fact that it's recorded there was no food outside the Garden and no man outside the Garden. (Genesis 2:5)

Also, why so shy...the Bible is pretty clear at recording some fairly detailed things...why no mention of these other people if there were in fact others (and specifically state that there were no shrubs or plants that had sprouted, nor any men to cultivate them) when in fact there were? I can buy the idea that the Bible is silent in regards to some things... but I don't buy the idea the the things the Bible is silent on sets up direct contradictions with what is recorded.



One interpretation is the literal account: ALL that is in them. However, another interpretation is that it is referring to planetary and astral bodies. No where does the Bible claim to be a textbook on history or exact science. Just something to consider.

The text states: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them..." If this is just referring to planetary and astral bodies, why state "and all that is in them"... :confused

Sorry guys, it just seems to me that you've taken hold of a pet theory and are sort of ignoring anything that would negate it.

I'm late to the thread... has anyone dealt with Eve's name, that she was called Eve because she was the mother of all the living? (Gen 3:20)

One thing we can know for certain is that there are definite gaps in the telling of the story. We can see that clearly in Gen 4:1-2 when it is recorded that Eve gave birth to Cain and gave birth to Able and Cain was a tiller of the ground and Abel was a shepherd. Right there in those two verses we see Cain and Abel grow from infants to men... It's only logical to believe that Adam and Eve did not stop having children for a minimum of 15 +/- years (but given the long age spans, probably even longer). Surely they had daughters and had, by then, a well established family unit. The language of Genesis 4:25 suggests that Seth was a child to comfort Eve and Adam for the loss of Abel, in which case Adam and Eve had 130 years of being fruitful and multiplying. One hundred and thirty years is a long time and a lot of people would be around by then. I believe this would answer all the points except the incest one.

Also, I believe the point was made earlier that Genesis 1:27 refers to a general male and female but not Adam and Eve. However, I believe that theory is negated by Genesis 5:1-2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed and named them Man in the day they were created. This is made even more clear when we see that the Hebrew word for man is Adam.
 
I found this interesting. I really couldn't find anywhere in Genesis where they were actually eating animals before the flood, but I think they did eat animals before the flood.


What do you make of this?

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:" -Genesis 4:4

The firstlings of the flock were for sacrifice... not for eating. Later, during the days of the Law, some (not all) of the animal sacrifices were eaten, but there is nothing to indicate that Adam, Eve and their children consumed the meat of their sacrifice. If they did, it was only for ritual purposes, not for nutrition. Genesis 1:29-30 makes it clear that all living creatures ate only vegetables, including the animals. It was only after the Flood, in Genesis 9 that we see God giving the animals for food... and He gave ALL animals for food, not just "clean" animals (which were for sacrifices).
 
I think I agree with post #17. God created Adam and Eve. The two multiplied. The family intermarried. Why would God create other people outside of Eden (when we all know Adam and Eve were the only humans in the Garden). And if God really created other people elsewhere...where are they? Should they be found guilty of sin too? Were they created perfect??? You see that?********************** 'If' men see me they will kill me. What does 'if' really mean? It talks about time, future - and before that time the progeny of Adam and Eve must have spread over the areas.
 
...Also if God truly created other people, say outside Eden, why would God drive the imperfect Adam and Eve into the 'area' of the assumed perfect others???;)
 
Originally Posted by Vanguard,

Adam and Eve had just eaten from the "forbidden fruit," and God cursed them to experience death. Prior to that, the implication is that they would be immortal had they not eaten from the tree.

This is also based on a false "orthodox" assumption, which is: "the FALL of man."

But the Scriptures instead tell us that Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the "forbidden fruit" because they were "FLAWED" to begin with. If they weren't, they would not have broken the fellowship with God.




Paul confirms this:

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Adam (and you and I) is "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity".



Paul gets more specific here:

1 Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual."

1 Corinthians 15:47 "The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."




"The first man Adam" was created out of the dust of the earth, and "Flesh and Blood" "cannot inherit the kingdom of God".




Jeremiah further confirms this fact:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


The passage from Jeremiah above plainly tells us that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand." Being MARRED IN THE POTTER'S HAND obviously does not mean he was made perfect in the Potter's Hand, and then BECAME marred ON HIS OWN!




And we read:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Genesis 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."



Adam was mere dust from the start. How could he have sinned if he did not have the intrinsic propensity to sin in the first place? :confused Impossible.

Man never "fell" because he had nowhere to fall. Flesh and blood (dust) is corruptible, and it cannot inherit the kingdom of God, period!




I realize this is a little "off-topic," but I am merely replying to what you posted. There are many erroneous "orthodox" assumptions which make this already complicated subject all the more complicated. :lol
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good posts! This is exactly what hermeneutics is all about! Studying and discussing the Bible, looking at verses in different ways, looking at literal accounts, looking at implied accounts, and looking at what is not said.

I'll come back in a bit and do some follow-ups.

The one thing we have to keep in mind is that there are multiple opinions and theories, even among scholars with PhD's who have studied the Bible for a lifetime. No one is saying that God is not real, or that we don't believe in Jesus. All we are doing is looking at some "biblical history" and discussing some possible explanations outside of a 100% literal account.
 
originally posted by osgiliath
Jeremiah further confirms this fact:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


The passage from Jeremiah above plainly tells us that "the vessel of clay [Adam as he was originally made] was MARRED in the Potter's hand." Being MARRED IN THE POTTER'S HAND obviously does not mean he was made perfect in the Potter's Hand, and then BECAME marred ON HIS OWN!

Incorrect.

the passage you quote from Jeremiah has nothing to do with Adam, you need to include verses 5 and 6 which I will do,
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. * * 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

this lesson being taught to Jeremiah has to do with the house of Israel, not Adam.

off topic or not this needs to be said you are teaching an error and twisting scripture to back it up.
 
Now back to topic: originally posted by osgiliath

But the Scriptures instead tell us that Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating the "forbidden fruit" because they were "FLAWED" to begin with. If they weren't, they would not have broken the fellowship with God.

Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. *

If God created it, it was "very good" not flawed, God gave man a mind and freewill, he chose not to believe/obey.
 
Excellent refutation, Shannon!

Listen, it's one thing to keep one's mind open to all that the Scriptures have to teach us, as well as keeping guard against bringing prejudices and bias to our understanding.

But, it's something altogether different to not only promote false ideas but then to cherry pick certain phrases and sentences in order to give a veneer of truth about them.

I find the discussions about the various theories about Genesis interesting, but I hope we can remain on topic and not get bogged down refuting the obvious.
 
Now back to topic: originally posted by osgiliath



Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. *

If God created it, it was "very good" not flawed, God gave man a mind and freewill, he chose not to believe/obey.


The Scriptures are clear Shannon H:

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual."

1 Corinthians 15:47 "The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven.



It was "VERY GOOD" because Adam was created EXACTLY as God intended: MARRED IN THE HAND OF THE POTTER! This was His plan, and that is why it was VERY GOOD. Where does it say God created ADAM perfect? It does not, as the Scriptures above prove.


If Adam and his wife, Eve, had come out from the Father as perfect spirits, then there would be no need to say this of us:

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."



Obviously Adam was not quite the finished product:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


This does not mean that God is not righteous simply because He created a MARRED Adam. And God didn't sin when He did this because He meant it to happen.



If God wanted Adam perfect, He would have created him SPIRITUAL FIRST! But He did not:

1 Corinthians 15:46 "Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual."

1 Corinthians 15:47 "The FIRST MAN [Adam] IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven."




God not only created Adam "natural" first, He created him "natural" and then called His creation, "very good" (Genesis 1:31).


Human failure is the only possible backdrop for a revelation of divine ability. God created Adam to fail so that He might GUARANTEE His creation the revelation of Jesus Christ, which was planned before the foundation of the world:

Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."

Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."





Now tell me, why would God have already provided a Savior, before he ever created Adam?

God created Adam to fail so that He could GUARANTEE His creation the revelation of Jesus Christ, which was planned before the foundation of the world! How could "The Revelation of our Savior Jesus Christ" be assured to mankind if God did not create Adam to fail? Do you think God would leave this to chance? Think Shannon, THINK! ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But, it's something altogether different to not only promote false ideas but then to cherry pick certain phrases and sentences in order to give a veneer of truth about them.

I have been saying that since day one! Context, context, context! It has been my signature from the start. Far too many cherry pick verses and apply them to try and illustrate a point. I have even seen pastors do it (and I call them out on it in private).

Now let me review the last few posts/points...
 
But that doesn't resolve the conflict brought about by the fact that it's recorded there was no food outside the Garden and no man outside the Garden. (Genesis 2:5)

Genesis 1:11-12 clearly shows that the earth, not just Eden, has vegetation, fruit trees, etc. that were edible. That was day 3.

Furthermore, depending on how you interpret it, humans (Adam and Eve or multitudes) were created on day 6, so why would Genesis 2 contradict the previous chapter by stating that nothing had yet grown on the earth (outside of Eden)? Hmmm... :confused

Now we are getting into the scholars' debates on who actually wrote Genesis. Some believe it was Moses (never says it). Others believe it was multiple authors, and they have contradictions.

Sorry guys, it just seems to me that you've taken hold of a pet theory and are sort of ignoring anything that would negate it.

Keep in mind that we are not reading from the ancient Hebrew autographs. We are reading from English translations. I wish I was fluent with Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin and German but I am not. The entire idioms, implications, etc. are unknown to us. Thinking outside of the box helps to cover all of the bases, even if it is not a popular theory. I am not saying it has to be accepted, but it is worth considering from a theoretical standpoint.

Since it is relevant, I will say that if you go and talk to an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, they will make your head spin with OT accounts and beliefs. They do not take Genesis or any other book in the OT literally. Their beliefs come from two parts: the Written Torah, and the Oral Torah. The Oral teaches them how to interpret the Written, and how to apply them to the Laws. They will tell you that Christians have the right idea, but our translations are wrong on several accounts in the OT.

Another reason why the OT does not speak of the other people that were created on day 6 (if you believe that theory) is that those people were not part of the Hebrew lineage. The OT is literally the history and genealogy of the Hebrew [Jewish] people, written by Hebrews (an assumption by most). Christianity has its roots in Judaism. We share the "same" OT of the Bible. We certainly can't discount what they say on the subject.

I'm late to the thread... has anyone dealt with Eve's name, that she was called Eve because she was the mother of all the living?

I can go into this if needs be, but it will require separating Judaism from Christianity. Their views will blow your mind. In short, the English translation of the Adam and Eve story supports the idea of original sin.

Obviously her name is not Eve in Hebrew. It was Hawwah, which translates into "the mother of all living." Other cultures also had an "Eve" which was their mother of all living (Tiamat from Babylonian lore for example). In the Latin Vulgate, Eve appears as Hava in the OT, but Eva in the NT. There is a link between "Eve" and the Hurrian goddess "Kheba," who was worshipped in Jerusalem (late bronze age, sourced from the Amarna Letters). But now we are getting into ancient history supported by archaeology. This is outside the realm of Christianity.

Another theory is that she is the "mother of all the living [in the Hebrew genealogy]." Again, the OT is written from a Jewish perspective.

This is made even more clear when we see that the Hebrew word for man is Adam.

You refer to "adamah and adom," which means "from red soil/dirt." Again we would have to go into greater detail of the Jewish version of the OT.



Let's take a step back at this point. We are...well, I am only going into this for a civil/intelligent discussion and learning experience. I am by no means trying to cast doubt or change anyone's views. Your faith should not be centered on how a few verses are interpreted, but rather in the overall message that dominates the Bible. Don't lose sight of that.


:topictotopic

Who did Cain and Seth marry and have children with?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Who did Cain and Seth marry and have children with?

There are several Old Testament pseudepigraphas called life of Adam and Eve and book of Jubilies written before Christ.

  • Life of Adam & Eve (Used by Paul in 2Cor 11:3; 11:14; 12:2)
  • Book of Jubilees

Book of Jubilees actually addresses your question. Cain married Awan her younger sister (Adam has 9 children). It was rejected from the canon because it wasn't written in Hebrew. However, the recent dead sea scrolls contain the manuscript in Hebrew suggesting that the writings are much older and actually had them in Hebrew. Hence, if you want, you can read the above two books which addresses the issues very well and gives in depth knowledge of what actually happened. Paul seems have quoted and early church did used them. The reason it was rejected during 3-4 century is no longer valid. Also, please note I haven't read that book yet but just had some overview of it.
 
Originally Posted By Vanguard,

Who did Cain and Seth marry and have children with?

We are not told how old the two sons were when Cain killed Abel, nor are we told how many children Adam and Eve had, but we are specifically told:

Genesis 5:4 "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters."


If we "let God be true and every man a liar", then we must conclude that ALL are "in Adam" and not in someone created "outside of the garden of Eden", that is, unless we ignore the following verse:

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


If our faith is in the Word of God, we can safely conclude that Eve came "out... of Adam", and "Eve is the mother of all living", including Cain's wife (I realize those who subscribe to the "serpent's seed" doctrine will disagree)

Therefore Cain had to have married one of his sisters, which was not prohibited until Moses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I was thinkin, if God created other people outside of Eden...did he also create other animals outside of Eden?;)
 
This is an interesting discussion....




I think that this theory is disproved by Genesis 2:5 "Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground."

Since there was no ripe fruits, nuts or veggies (and there was no death so animals were not eaten... no animal was eaten until after the flood) if there were men outside the garden, they were starving. This was the purpose of God planting the Garden in the first place, so that His creation would have something to eat. Besides, the text clearly states there were no men.

Also, I think the idea that God created other men and women on day 6 then created Adam and Eve on day 8 is negated by Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day..."

Since Adam and Eve are part of the "all" that is in the earth, this text teaches us that they were created within the 6 days of creation.

I don't necessarily view Genesis 100% literally, for instance, I think the days of creation very probably were not 24 hour time periods... but I really don't buy into the various theories out there that claim that there were other people besides Adam and Eve that were created.


Genesis 1:11 "And God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth:" and it was so."

Genesis 1:12 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

Genesis 1:29 "And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
 
Do we actually believe that all the different races came from two people?I know with God all things are possible,but I also think He does that which is natural.........Kind after kind......
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,642.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top