The Gifts of the Spirit

[D-D-W]

By the FFOZ staff. I am about half way thru this book. I have been a liker of books on the foundations of faith. And since the list of foundations is in the book of Hebrews**, I find it even more interesting. That means it was written specifically to first century Messianic Jews.

Having been raised in Pentecostalism, I found this book to be quite different from other stuff I have read on the Gifts. The general gist is taken from Hebrews 6 where it talks about having "tasted ... the powers of the age to come." That supernatural occurrences will be commonplace in the Millennial/Messianic kingdom, but not as much now. And what we do have now is a foretaste, a down payment, on what we will have access to in the next world.



I have already suggested this book to our congregational leader and he immediately ordered his own copy.



** Hebrews 6:1-3

 

[T. E. Smith]

On that verse Wesley comments on the powers, "Which every one tastes, who has an hope full of immortality. Every child that is naturally born, first sees the light, then receives and tastes proper nourishment, and partakes of the things of this world. In like manner, the apostle, comparing spiritual with natural things, speaks of one born of the Spirit, as seeing the light, tasting the sweetness, and partaking of the things "of the world to come."

 

[for_his_glory]

Spiritual gifts are supernatural manifestations that come as gifts from the Holy Spirit operating through believers for the common good. These are gifts we receive through grace that indicates that Spiritual gifts involve both an inward motivation and the power to perform ministry and is received from the Holy Spirit. No man can place a certain gift on themselves unless it is placed on them by the Holy Spirit.

1Corinthians chapter 12 explains these gifts given to those who are in service of the Lord for the purpose of Gods ministry to all nations as we are one in the body of Christ to all who have answered Gods call to reconciliation by his grace. Four walls do not make a Church, but one body gathered together in the name of Jesus is what makes up his true worldwide church and as those of each nation comes to Christ so are the gifts given to each individual working as a whole for the witness of Christ.

These gifts are for the governing of Gods ministry to keep us inline with his perfect will. They are not to be used to edify and lift up ones self to make one better than another, but to lift up and edify one another in the will of God which is his perfect will of love. Let us bind these gifts up in our hearts and use them for the purpose and intent that binds us together in love.​

 

[T. E. Smith]

Personally I am a cessationist but some spiritual gifts still continue, like the gift of teaching

 

[for_his_glory]

Personally I am a cessationist but some spiritual gifts still continue, like the gift of teaching

1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Cor 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

All of these gifts are for yesterday, today and forever until Christ returns as the church is the body of Christ with He being the head of the body. All are for the building up and edifying the body of Christ that we all become one in the Lord. It's only mans theories that say the gifts have ceased.

 

[T. E. Smith]

It's only mans theories that say the gifts have ceased.

"As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect [or "complete] comes, the partial will pass away." - from 1 Cor. 13:8-12

The question is, when is this fulfilled? Cessationists say it was fulfilled at the completion of the NT canon and death of the apostles. Continuationists say it will be fulfilled at the end of the age. Neither is "man's theories." It is just different interpretations.

"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works." - 2 Cor. 12:12
"How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." - from Heb. 2:3-4

From these we see that miracles were given to the apostles to authenticate their ministry and writings. There are no apostles today, and the canon is complete. Thus miraculous gifts are no longer in existence.

It's 100% okay if you don't agree. I'm not asking you to. But I am saying we shouldn't call either theory "man's theories." It is different interpretations of scripture, conducted by faithful Christians over the millennia.

 

[hawkman]

All of these gifts are for yesterday, today and forever until Christ returns as the church is the body of Christ with He being the head of the body. All are for the building up and edifying the body of Christ that we all become one in the Lord. It's only mans theories that say the gifts have ceased.

Yes ! This is what I think too .

Personally I am a cessationist but some spiritual gifts still continue, like the gift of teaching

T. E. Smith which gifts do you think are no longer in operation now ?

What does the church you now attend teach about the Gifts of The Holy Spirit ?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Yes ! This is what I think too .

T. E. Smith which gifts do you think are no longer in operation now ?

What does the church you now attend teach about the Gifts of The Holy Spirit ?

Any supernatural gifts are not in continuation, like healing tongues and prophecy. Non-supernatural ones like teaching still are. Church took no strong position but definitely had no charismatic tongues or healing.
That is what classic cessationism holds too.
I recommend the work Counterfeit Miracles by important theologian B.B. Warfield.
It is public domain so can be easily viewed online with a web search.

 

[T. E. Smith]

In other words, miraculous gifts have ceased.

 

[hawkman]

Any supernatural gifts are not in continuation, like healing tongues and prophecy. Non-supernatural ones like teaching still are.

Teaching is a Gift of the Spirit but not a supernatural Gift of the Spirit ? All Gifts of the Spirit are supernatural .

Church took no strong position but definitely had no charismatic tongues or healing.
That is what classic cessationism holds too.

Some how I had guessed this is the way your church believed . You already have a problem with one tenant of your church's doctrine , have you gave much thought to the possibility that cessationism is wrong ?

I recommend the work Counterfeit Miracles by important theologian B.B. Warfield.
It is public domain so can be easily viewed online with a web search.

Pdf online you are correct you can view it . But will I read it ? See below .

In other words, miraculous gifts have ceased.

I have seen my daughter healed not once but twice , two different problems . One problem was going to require surgery but after she was prayed for at church one night the next morning she was well , the problem never returned . Day one as a Christian I knew I had the Gift of Tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance . But I did not let the Holy Spirit give the utterance till a few days later . I guess I was kind of shocked at what was going on with me .
Signs and wonders , I know something of those too .

The perfect has not come yet .

 

[D-D-W]

Personally I am a cessationist but some spiritual gifts still continue, like the gift of teaching

? ? ? ?
If you are an atheist as you have claimed elsewhere, how could you be a "cessationist," since that word assumes the supernatural gifts were in operation earlier but then ceased at some point?
And who is the "gift of teaching" from?

 

[D-D-W]

"As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect [or "complete] comes, the partial will pass away." - from 1 Cor. 13:8-12

The question is, when is this fulfilled? Cessationists say it was fulfilled at the completion of the NT canon and death of the apostles. Continuationists say it will be fulfilled at the end of the age. Neither is "man's theories." It is just different interpretations.

The book does a good job of looking at that verse in the light of spiritual understanding in the first century.

BTW - the "perfect" was NOT the King James Bible. ( I HAVE heard that)

 

[T. E. Smith]

Teaching is a Gift of the Spirit but not a supernatural Gift of the Spirit ? All Gifts of the Spirit are supernatural .

Yes, you could say that which is why I clarified that what I meant was "miraculous." Perhaps supernatural is not the best word.

Some how I had guessed this is the way your church believed . You already have a problem with one tenant of your church's doctrine , have you gave much thought to the possibility that cessationism is wrong ?

Yes, I do not believe cessationism just because my church teaches it, but because I have thoroughly researched it and come to conclusions.

Pdf online you are correct you can view it . But will I read it ? See below .

It is long, so it's fine if you don't read it, but it is excellent.

I have seen my daughter healed not once but twice , two different problems . One problem was going to require surgery but after she was prayed for at church one night the next morning she was well , the problem never returned . Day one as a Christian I knew I had the Gift of Tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance . But I did not let the Holy Spirit give the utterance till a few days later . I guess I was kind of shocked at what was going on with me .
Signs and wonders , I know something of those too .

A few things on miracle healing.

1. Religious people who talk about individual healing miracles fail to explain why this certain person is chosen for the miracle, while millions die without god helping them. Children die constantly from various illnesses. This is especially true in less developed countries, which is what we'd expect in a world without miracles.
   1. On this: my little brother was born at 22 weeks, very early. My stepmother and her mom and dad talk on and on about how it is a "miracle." But what they don't realize is this: it rubs the "miracle" in the face of all other grieving parents who lost their child born early. The vast majority of children born that early die, and to trumpet the miracle must hurt badly for people who have lost their child.
      1. My stepmother has a whole website documenting the story. How many grieving parents have viewed it, and been devastated by the constant claims that it was a miracle, and have wondered, "Why did God not do that for me?"
2. Just because we don't know how someone was healed does not mean it was a miracle. Miracles are things that according to natural laws cannot happen, and yet happen anyway. But natural laws are defined according to what we see. Therefore, your daughter's recovery is in fact part of the natural law, even if we don't understand it yet.
3. Other religions claim miracles as works of their gods; how do we know that they are not correct?

But this could take a very long discussion, and is somewhat off-topic.

The perfect has not come yet .

The word could and is often also translated "complete." Paul does not clarify what is perfect or complete, which allows us to consider that he may be referring to the completion and closing of the NT canon, or the completion of the apostolic ministry, which ended with the death of the apostles.

? ? ? ?
If you are an atheist as you have claimed elsewhere, how could you be a "cessationist," since that word assumes the supernatural gifts were in operation earlier but then ceased at some point?
And who is the "gift of teaching" from?

1. Merely because I do not believe the Bible's theological claims does not mean I cannot comprehend them or interpret them. I think the Bible teaches cessationism.
   1. Do you think the Koran teaches Muslims today to kill non-believers? But you don't believe the Koran, and yet you can still make this theological claim. What is more, some Muslims do not think it is what it teaches. But we have no problem interpreting the Koran here despite not believing in it.
2. "Gift of teaching" is natural ability given by God, tempered by faithful Christian mentors.

 

[D-D-W]

1. Merely because I do not believe the Bible's theological claims does not mean I cannot comprehend them or interpret them. I think the Bible teaches cessationism.

And you would be wrong. If you are REALLY interested why, then I suggest you read the book.

Do you think the Koran teaches Muslims today to kill non-believers? But you don't believe the Koran, and yet you can still make this theological claim. What is more, some Muslims do not think it is what it teaches. But we have no problem interpreting the Koran here despite not believing in it.

I have said nothing about what the koran teaches.

What I do know is that Islam, by claiming "God has no son," puts itself firmly into the Antichrist camp. (per 1 John 2.22)

I had a friend in college who was devout Suni muslim. He explained to me why there was no official English translation: Semitic languages have multiple layers of meaning, ALL TRUE simultaneously; even if they are contradictory. He said the Arabic Koran has 7 such layers. Since you can take a sentence of layer 2 and the next of layer 4 and then layer 1; you can do that all the way thru and get something completely different than if you took everything at layer 1 or at layer 2, etc. There is no adequate way to translate that into a linear language like English.

And the same is true for the Hebrew text of the OT. There are 4 recognized layers of meaning to the Hebrew text.

 

[T. E. Smith]

And you would be wrong. If you are REALLY interested why, then I suggest you read the book.

I have made no such dogmatic statement about continuationism. I have not told you that you are wrong. All we are doing is interpreting differently. I cannot just read every random book on continuationism. But I am well-read. For example I have read:

• Surprised by the Power of the Spirit by Jack Deere
• The Kingdom and the Power by Gary Greig and Kevin Springer
• Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem (includes a section on spiritual gifts, a scholarly defense of continuationism)
• Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?: Four Views from Zondervan

The first three argue for continuationism. Deere's book is OK, but not very great. Greig and Springer's book is a compilation of essays, very good read. Grudem's section is good. The four views book presents several perspectives, and the third essay is the most important defense of continuationism here.

So you act like because I have not read this particular book, I am not interested in why. That's just unfair. Have you read Warfield's work I mentioned above? If so I commend you, but if not, I would definitely not say you are not interested in the issue.

 

[for_his_glory]

"As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect [or "complete] comes, the partial will pass away." - from 1 Cor. 13:8-12

The question is, when is this fulfilled? Cessationists say it was fulfilled at the completion of the NT canon and death of the apostles. Continuationists say it will be fulfilled at the end of the age. Neither is "man's theories." It is just different interpretations.

"The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works." - 2 Cor. 12:12
"How shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." - from Heb. 2:3-4

From these we see that miracles were given to the apostles to authenticate their ministry and writings. There are no apostles today, and the canon is complete. Thus miraculous gifts are no longer in existence.

It's 100% okay if you don't agree. I'm not asking you to. But I am saying we shouldn't call either theory "man's theories." It is different interpretations of scripture, conducted by faithful Christians over the millennia.

Prophecies are still being fulfilled in Christ, miracles, healings, helps are still happening as the Holy Spirit continues to work through those who are truly in Christ and He in them as the gifts of the Holy Spirit will continue until Christ returns on the last day and we are gathered up to Him for eternity.

Different parts make up the whole body through one common factor that is the Spirit of God and works in all of us and through all of us for the glory of the Lord. The body of Christ has many members and many different functions yet it remains one body in Christ. There is no gift that places one higher than another as God is no respecter of person, but chooses those who have the Spiritual capability and availability to lead his people with the same love and compassion he shows us.

Vs. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Vs. 29 are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
Vs. 30 have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
Vs. 31 but covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

Whether it be a formal Church setting behind four walls with pews and fancy stained glass windows or just a group of people gathered together in someone’s home sharing the word of God there has to be an order in all we do in Gods ministry so we will remain in Gods will for the purpose and time of his ministry. As an individual we can receive all the gifts of the Spirit within us, but can only use those gifts as the Spirit gives us unction to do so. We are all apostles and prophets that teach the word of God and perform miracles and heal the sick, but we do not do this of ourselves, but only by the Holy Spirit working in us and through us to reach out to the hearts of others. Let the Holy Spirit guide and direct your path and you will always be pleasing to the Father bringing glory and honor to his glorious name.

 

[for_his_glory]

In other words, miraculous gifts have ceased.

What I'm about to say is not boastful or prideful, but to show the Holy Spirit working in me and through me with the Spiritual gifts. I have laid hands on others and saw the miracle of healings. I have in the name of Jesus cast out evil spirits in others, (Not a big fan of that one) I have spoken prophecy in Spiritual tongues and have also given interpretations.

An apostle is one that is called of God who is sent out on a mission. Mine was for a season and purpose when God called me to the prison ministry as an apostle/Evangelist/disciple as being a follower of Christ for which is the definition of apostle, Teacher, Evangelist and most important a follower of Christ.

To me these are some of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit as it is not "I", but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within me working through me to help others see the light of Christ.

 

[T. E. Smith]

What I'm about to say is not boastful or prideful, but to show the Holy Spirit working in me and through me with the Spiritual gifts. I have laid hands on others and saw the miracle of healings. I have in the name of Jesus cast out evil spirits in others, (Not a big fan of that one) I have spoken prophecy in Spiritual tongues and have also given interpretations.

An apostle is one that is called of God who is sent out on a mission. Mine was for a season and purpose when God called me to the prison ministry as an apostle/Evangelist/disciple as being a follower of Christ for which is the definition of apostle, Teacher, Evangelist and most important a follower of Christ.

To me these are some of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit as it is not "I", but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within me working through me to help others see the light of Christ.

Even though I think that naturalistic (not a bad word) explanations are better,
I would not want to take this experience away from you and your church if it is real to you.

 

[D-D-W]

So you act like because I have not read this particular book, I am not interested in why. That's just unfair. Have you read Warfield's work I mentioned above? If so I commend you, but if not, I would definitely not say you are not interested in the issue.

I recommend this book because, unlike ANY OTHER BOOK i have come across, it ties in the supernatural power of the Spirit with existing Jewish practice and shows the continuity with the OT prophets from Moses to Malachi. (were you aware there were Jewish mystics in the 2nd Temple period doing miracles?)

I have heard of Warfield before - he was quoted by Baptist tele-evangelist John MacArthur. I HAVE read MacArthur's works including Charismatic Chaos. His take is that all current "supernatural manifestations" are by definition done by Satan. That scares me for him because I believe he truly has a heart for God and the Gospel, but falls into the trap:

Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” —

In context, a group of Pharisees were accusing Jesus of exorcising demons by Beelzebub - the prince of demons. (literally "lord of flies"); thus saying the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit was really demonic power. MacArthur seems very close to making that same mistake.

 

[T. E. Smith]

(were you aware there were Jewish mystics in the 2nd Temple period doing miracles?

Yes.

I have heard of Warfield before - he was quoted by Baptist tele-evangelist John MacArthur. I HAVE read MacArthur's works including Charismatic Chaos. His take is that all current "supernatural manifestations" are by definition done by Satan. That scares me for him because I believe he truly has a heart for God and the Gospel, but falls into the trap:

Yeah, I have very little respect for John MacArthur. He needs to learn some charity and drop his fundamentalism. He said recently that anyone who does not vote for Donald Trump is not a Christian, for example.