S
Solo
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Exactly, man is not just a physical creation out of the dust of the earth, he also has the soul which was breathed into him.Jay T said:
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Solo said:Exactly, man is not just a physical creation out of the dust of the earth, he also has the soul which was breathed into him.
Man is a soul. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not prove man is made up of three parts, no more than Hebrews 4:12 proving that man is a composite of 7 parts (soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts, intentions, heart).
S
Solo
Guest
I do not expect the natural man to understand the things that are spiritually discerned. The Scriptures teach that the natural man cannot know these things as he also considers them foolishness. If and when you become a child of God, you will understand these things that I speak of.wavy said:Man is a soul. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not prove man is made up of three parts, no more than Hebrews 4:12 proving that man is a composite of 7 parts (soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts, intentions, heart).
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16
Goal--to get to the tree of life.
Solo, Of course scripture must be rightly divided; to arrive at an understanding of any Biblical subject, all scriptures relating to it must be studied and compared.
Regarding the dictionary definitions. Did it not occur to you that the compilers have pre-conceived views on the subject? They give a number of definitions, ideas, but little or no scripture to back them up.
They didn't give any word definitions based on the Hebrew:
Sheol belongs to the Hebrew word family of the stem "shal," ASK, which is regularly used in that sense; cf The New Englishman's Hebrew Concordance, p1220, cp entries 2 and 6 (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson Publishers, 1984.
Sheol (Ask) corresponds to the Greek "hades," meaning "unseen."
I agree, that any and all teachings that contradict the truth in God's Word are false.'
So, man being body, soul and spirit, what can we learn from scripture?
In Gen. 3:19, God tells Adam "..you are dust and to dust shall you return."
NOTICE: it says "you", not "your body" will return to dust.
Also see, Job 10:9, Psa. 90:3; 146:34; Eccl. 12:7.
IN DEATH, THE GRAVE, THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE, NO REMEMBRANCE, NO PRAISE:
Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
And there are numbers of others. Do I believe them, or just consider them "poetic descriptions" and not to be taken literally?
LET'S LOOK AT 'SOUL'
I'm sure you are aware that "soul" is not exclusive to mankind. There are many passages that refer to creatures of the sea, land animals and flying reatures as "living souls."
I.E., Gen. 1:20, 21, 24; 2:19; 9:3, 4, 8-10, 12, etc.
WHY? Because they are living souls, just as Man is a "living soul." This is because both are not only living creatures but are living creatures which possess SOUL, that is, sentient capacity, and are capable of experience.
Gen 2:7 doesn't tell us that man's soul was breathed into him. It says the Lord God breathed into the nostrils of a prepared body, and man became a living soul.
If man is a living soul, then if he dies it should follow that his "soul", his feelings, his consciousness, etc., should die too. But, if the soul is immortal, there should be no scriptures that say it can die.
So. What do we do with these verses?
Josh. 10:28 "And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and all the souls therein."
See Josh. 10:30,32,35,37,39; 11:11.
Ezek. 18:4 is an oft quoted verse: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth it shall die." QUESTION: If the soul is a separate entity within our body, how does it sin? And, if it can be blessed or punished, why have a resurrected body?
Ezek. 13:19 "And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley anf for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live...?"
Lev. 23:30 "And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, that same soul will I destroy from among his people."
See: 1 Ki. 19:10; Psa. 31:13; Prov. 1:19, Ezek. 22:27.
SPIRIT OF MAN:
Man's spirit is being formed within him: Zech. 12:1 "...The Lord which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."
God's gift of life is with every breath: Job 12:10 "In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
Gen. 7:22 "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah-Heb.) of the spirit (ruach) of life, of all that was on the dry land died." Speaking of the flood.
Job 34:14,15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust."
Since our life force, our spirit is a gift from God, we are told in Eccl. 12:7,
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Solomon writing about man's death.
Solo, have you, in context, studied all the Bible has to say about soul?
Bick
Solo, Of course scripture must be rightly divided; to arrive at an understanding of any Biblical subject, all scriptures relating to it must be studied and compared.
Regarding the dictionary definitions. Did it not occur to you that the compilers have pre-conceived views on the subject? They give a number of definitions, ideas, but little or no scripture to back them up.
They didn't give any word definitions based on the Hebrew:
Sheol belongs to the Hebrew word family of the stem "shal," ASK, which is regularly used in that sense; cf The New Englishman's Hebrew Concordance, p1220, cp entries 2 and 6 (Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson Publishers, 1984.
Sheol (Ask) corresponds to the Greek "hades," meaning "unseen."
I agree, that any and all teachings that contradict the truth in God's Word are false.'
So, man being body, soul and spirit, what can we learn from scripture?
In Gen. 3:19, God tells Adam "..you are dust and to dust shall you return."
NOTICE: it says "you", not "your body" will return to dust.
Also see, Job 10:9, Psa. 90:3; 146:34; Eccl. 12:7.
IN DEATH, THE GRAVE, THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE, NO REMEMBRANCE, NO PRAISE:
Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who can give you praise?"
Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"
Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."
Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."
And there are numbers of others. Do I believe them, or just consider them "poetic descriptions" and not to be taken literally?
LET'S LOOK AT 'SOUL'
I'm sure you are aware that "soul" is not exclusive to mankind. There are many passages that refer to creatures of the sea, land animals and flying reatures as "living souls."
I.E., Gen. 1:20, 21, 24; 2:19; 9:3, 4, 8-10, 12, etc.
WHY? Because they are living souls, just as Man is a "living soul." This is because both are not only living creatures but are living creatures which possess SOUL, that is, sentient capacity, and are capable of experience.
Gen 2:7 doesn't tell us that man's soul was breathed into him. It says the Lord God breathed into the nostrils of a prepared body, and man became a living soul.
If man is a living soul, then if he dies it should follow that his "soul", his feelings, his consciousness, etc., should die too. But, if the soul is immortal, there should be no scriptures that say it can die.
So. What do we do with these verses?
Josh. 10:28 "And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and all the souls therein."
See Josh. 10:30,32,35,37,39; 11:11.
Ezek. 18:4 is an oft quoted verse: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth it shall die." QUESTION: If the soul is a separate entity within our body, how does it sin? And, if it can be blessed or punished, why have a resurrected body?
Ezek. 13:19 "And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley anf for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live...?"
Lev. 23:30 "And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, that same soul will I destroy from among his people."
See: 1 Ki. 19:10; Psa. 31:13; Prov. 1:19, Ezek. 22:27.
SPIRIT OF MAN:
Man's spirit is being formed within him: Zech. 12:1 "...The Lord which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him."
God's gift of life is with every breath: Job 12:10 "In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
Gen. 7:22 "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah-Heb.) of the spirit (ruach) of life, of all that was on the dry land died." Speaking of the flood.
Job 34:14,15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to the dust."
Since our life force, our spirit is a gift from God, we are told in Eccl. 12:7,
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Solomon writing about man's death.
Solo, have you, in context, studied all the Bible has to say about soul?
Bick
Solo said:I do not expect the natural man to understand the things that are spiritually discerned. The Scriptures teach that the natural man cannot know these things as he also considers them foolishness. If and when you become a child of God, you will understand these things that I speak of.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16
Typical ad hominem debate tactic when one doesn't have anything worthwhile to say further. A dismissal with "I'm right you're, wrong because you suck" seems common nowadays. :roll:
S
Solo
Guest
I was not making an ad hominem debate tactic when declaring that the natural man does not understand the spiritual things of God. The Scripture that I gave states this as plain fact. The physical body of man is easy to see for the natural man, but the soul and the spirit are not perceived by the eyes of the flesh. Much more exists outside of what your physical eyes can see, my friend. The Scripture is pretty clear on the soul of man, the body of man, and the spirit of man. You will not see two of the three of these with eyes of the flesh.wavy said:Typical ad hominem debate tactic when one doesn't have anything worthwhile to say further. A dismissal with "I'm right you're, wrong because you suck" seems common nowadays.Solo said:I do not expect the natural man to understand the things that are spiritually discerned. The Scriptures teach that the natural man cannot know these things as he also considers them foolishness. If and when you become a child of God, you will understand these things that I speak of.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:13-16
J
Jay T
Guest
Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Bick,
First of all, any and all teachings that contradict the truth in God's Word are false, and any group that stands upon these false teachings are abiding in false doctrine leavening the whole group. It is very important to understand the Word by studying to show oneself approved unto God, rightyly dividing the word of truth. Quote from SOLO.
I agree, Solo, and that should go for all those definitions and comments on the subject of "sheol" because their definitions do not line up with Scripture!
It is also interesting that so many Bible scholars when discussing this subject, make poetic expressions not to be taken literally, unless it is something they want to use to verify their point.
And again, Solo, how should one interpret all the verses that say the 'soul' can die, be killed, be destroyed, be cut off, etc.?
Did the Spirit inspire the writers to compile false statements?!
Then, How can the soul be said to 'die' and yet be eternal?
Bick
First of all, any and all teachings that contradict the truth in God's Word are false, and any group that stands upon these false teachings are abiding in false doctrine leavening the whole group. It is very important to understand the Word by studying to show oneself approved unto God, rightyly dividing the word of truth. Quote from SOLO.
I agree, Solo, and that should go for all those definitions and comments on the subject of "sheol" because their definitions do not line up with Scripture!
It is also interesting that so many Bible scholars when discussing this subject, make poetic expressions not to be taken literally, unless it is something they want to use to verify their point.
And again, Solo, how should one interpret all the verses that say the 'soul' can die, be killed, be destroyed, be cut off, etc.?
Did the Spirit inspire the writers to compile false statements?!
Then, How can the soul be said to 'die' and yet be eternal?
Bick
S
Solo
Guest
What verses are those, Bick?Bick said:And again, Solo, how should one interpret all the verses that say the 'soul' can die, be killed, be destroyed, be cut off, etc.?
J
Jay T
Guest
You're right.wavy said:Man is a soul. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 does not prove man is made up of three parts, no more than Hebrews 4:12 proving that man is a composite of 7 parts (soul, spirit, joints, marrow, thoughts, intentions, heart).
Man is a soul.
The combination of body and spirit (which, is the breath of life= Life force)
There is no such thing as an Immortal soul of man, at least that is what the Bible indicates.