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The god of Islam or the living God of Christianity

Is the god of Islam the same as the living God?

  • Yes - Muslims and Christians worship the same God

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neither - explain why you choose this option

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5
Gary said:
The difference is that my observation is supported by facts. Yours are not. The terrorism in the world today is caused by those who follow the teachings of the Quran and follow Muhammad's example.

.

Surely. But there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Were they all terrorists I think our problems should be much bigger than they are today.

I cannot accept your logic because it lays the blame for everything done in Jesus's name throughout history at Jesus's feet. That is unacceptable to me.
 
Gary said:
The difference is that my observation is supported by facts. Yours are not. The terrorism in the world today is caused by those who follow the teachings of the Quran and follow Muhammad's example.
Shinto said:
Surely. But there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Were they all terrorists I think our problems should be much bigger than they are today.
"Good" Muslims like the Taliban and bin Laden follow the Quran and Muhammad's example. The Islamic terrorist problem gets bigger every day.

Shinto said:
I cannot accept your logic because it lays the blame for everything done in Jesus's name throughout history at Jesus's feet. That is unacceptable to me.
People who have killed in Jesus' name (including the crusades) have NOT followed His example. People who have killed in Muhammad's name have followed Muhammad's example.

:)
 
Gary said:
Gary said:
The difference is that my observation is supported by facts. Yours are not. The terrorism in the world today is caused by those who follow the teachings of the Quran and follow Muhammad's example.
Shinto said:
Surely. But there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. Were they all terrorists I think our problems should be much bigger than they are today.
"Good" Muslims like the Taliban and bin Laden follow the Quran and Muhammad's example. The Islamic terrorist problem gets bigger every day.

"Good"?

I'm sure they call themselves good, but that hardly makes them exceptional. I'm inclined to think that since that vast majority of Muslims do not engage in the activities of bin Laden . . .

I think your essential point is that bid Laden represents the true and authentic Islam. Going back through history though, and even looking at the bulk of muslims today we do not find them acting like bin Laden. So either they don't understand their own religion properly or perhaps the analysis being made is in error.

Shinto said:
I cannot accept your logic because it lays the blame for everything done in Jesus's name throughout history at Jesus's feet. That is unacceptable to me.
People who have killed in Jesus' name (including the crusades) have NOT followed His example. People who have killed in Muhammad's name have followed Muhammad's example.

:)[/quote]

I wasn't aware you were a pacifist. :wink:
 
Shinto said:
I think your essential point is that bid Laden represents the true and authentic Islam. Going back through history though, and even looking at the bulk of muslims today we do not find them acting like bin Laden. So either they don't understand their own religion properly or perhaps the analysis being made is in error.

Immediately following Muhammad's death, his followers continued to murder those around them. They used deceit and war to spread their ideas, get political control and more land and spread their religion.

The Fruits of Islam's Royal Family


:o :o
 
The Fruits of Early Islam

ALI’S FRUIT

Ali was Muhammad’s son in law, he was married to Muhammad’s daughter Fatima. Ali was raised by Muhammad starting at the age of five. At the battle of Khaibar Muhammad attested to Ali’s love of Allah, and Allah’s love of Ali. Ali was the fourth of the “rightly guided Caliphs.†Ali had two sons: Hasan and Husayn (both are important later on). Eventually Ali became a co-Caliph. A few years later he was murdered by a fellow Muslim.

The day after Muhammad’s death, Ali’s greed surfaced and he demanded that Abu Bakr give him a share of Muhammad’s ample wealth. His greed motivated him to move against Muhammad’s commands regarding his inheritance. Abu Bakr refused and Ali was enraged. He even stated that Muhammad himself did not know the Quran (in this Ali was correct) because the Quran details prophets leaving an inheritance to their sons (as does the Old Testament). As a result, Ali hated Abu Bakr deeply. He thought Abu Bakr to be “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, and a liar.†Remember, Abu Bakr was Islam’s 1st “Rightly Guided†Caliph. Obviously Ali did not think he was so “rightly guided!†When Muhammad’s daughter Fatima died, Ali was so embittered towards Abu Bakr that he did not bother to tell him, rather he buried Fatima in secret. Ali was censored by the people for his hatred towards Abu Bakr, therefore he went through the false motions of reconciliation with Abu Bakr to regain favor with the Muslim community.

Following Abu Bakr’s death, Ali made the same financial demands upon Umar. Umar told Ali to his face that he knew he hated him and that he knew Ali thought him to be a “sinful treacherous dishonest liarâ€Â. However, under Ali’s pressure, Umar relented, compromised Muhammad’s commands, made some trite stipulations, and gave a share of the wealth to Ali.

Following Uthman’s murder Ali did not attempt to punish the murderers. Instead he acted lamely, claiming he did not have sufficient force to deal with the murderers. Later when he had ample troops, instead of punishing Uthman’s murderers, he incorporated them into his service.

After he became Caliph he used compulsion and forced az-Zubayr and Talha to give him allegiance. When it became apparent that not all thought he should be Caliph, instead of working to keep unity within the Islamic community, he demanded allegiance. His lust for power caused him to go to war to force all Muslims to obey him. This caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Muslims through various battles. Later, Ali murdered Muslims who had converted to Islam, realized it was a big mistake, and reverted back to Christ.

FATIMA’S FRUIT

One of Muhammad’s daughters, later married to Ali. The day after her father died, she went against her father’s wishes and demanded a share of his wealth. She hated Abu Bakr for refusing her demand. She thought him to be a “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, liar.†She died some 6 months after Muhammad died.

IBN ABBAS’ FRUIT

Like Ali and Fatima, Ibn Abbas was greedy and made a demand upon Abu Bakr, and later Umar, for the inheritance. Ibn Abbas thought them to be “sinful, treacherous, dishonest, liars.†He did not care to respect Muhammad’s wishes. In his lust for the money, he even cursed Ali in front of Umar. Later in life he betrayed Ali, stole from the public treasury, lied about his actions, and murdered those that opposed him.

ABU SUFYAN’S FRUIT

Abu Sufyan should not be considered as part of the Royal family or one of the best Muslims. However, he became prominent even during Muhammad’s lifetime. I’ve noted him here because of the position his sons were to occupy later. After forcing Abu Sufyan to convert to Islam, Muhammad gave him financial rewards for accepting Islam and foolishly appointed him as a governor over a city. Muhammad’s corrupt folly here proved to be fatal to his own family not many years later.

Islam’s Royal family knew of Sufyan’s intentions, for they heard him say, “By God, I see a cloud of smoke,†which nothing but blood will clearâ€Â, but they did nothing to check this. And, Sufyan’s prophecy proved true. Sufyan held malice against Abu Bakr and denigrated the choice of Bakr as Caliph. He considered himself and his clan to be superior to Abu Bakr. Later, his family destroyed Muhammad’s family, and took the Caliphate for themselves.

AL-ZUBAYR’S FRUIT

He was a very prominent Muslim, a close friend of Muhammad’s, and a leader in the Islamic community. After Muhammad died, he was willing to murder those that opposed Ali as Caliph. However, he desired the Caliphate and when he thought the time was right he rebelled against Ali. His leadership also caused the deaths of thousands of Muslims in the Battle of the Camel.

UTHMAN’S FRUIT

Uthman was the 3rd “Rightly Guided Caliphâ€Â. His caliphate marked the inward deterioration of the Islamic community. By this time, Muhammad’s empty legalistic rule had run its course and the Muslim community began to live in the flesh to the fullest. Uthman was a weak, corrupt leader and allowed the corruption to flourish throughout the Islamic empire. Uthman was murdered by Muslims, Abu Bakr’s son was one of the ringleaders of the murder. When his final crisis occurred, he lied to Ali and the people by saying he wanted time to set good things in order. Instead he prepared for war.

TALHA’S FRUIT

Another prominent Muslim, a close friend of Muhammad’s, and a leader in the Islamic community. He his desire for the Caliphate he rebelled against Ali. His leadership also caused the deaths of thousands of Muslims in the Battle of the Camel.

MUAWIYAH’S FRUIT

Muawiyah was Abu Sufyan’s son and was appointed to the governorship of Syria by Umar. He went to war with Ali. He later became the 5th Caliph of Islam. He treated Uthman with duplicity by not sending help when he needed it most. In his deceit and lust for power he rebelled against Ali. He led thousands of Muslims to their deaths in his war with Ali. He lied about seeking peace while all the while he moved against Ali. Later he lied to Hasan in promising Hasan that he would have a council held to determine the next Caliph. Instead, prior to his death, he installed his son Yazid as Caliph.

AISHA’S FRUIT

She was Muhammad’s 9 year old child bride. She hated Ali for most of her life. She was one of the leaders in Islam’s first civil war. She had previously despised Uthman, but she used his murder as a pretense to move against Ali. Her hatred and rebellion toward Ali led to the deaths of some 15,000 Muslims. In her bitterness towards Ali, she rejoiced when Ali was murdered.

HASAN’S FRUIT

Hasan was Ali’s older son and initially claimed the Caliphate for himself following his father’s murder. However, just as things went wrong for Ali, so things deteriorated for Hasan very quickly. He sold out his “birthright†for a large sum of money. Thereafter he spent his wealth on debauchery with women.

YAZID’S FRUIT

Yazid was Muawiyah’s son. By using threat of death Yazid tried to force many Muslims to accept his Caliphate. Those that refused were tortured and killed. Entire towns of people were persecuted and oppressed. Yazid was a drunkard. It was Yazid’s forces that killed Husayn. Yazid, the Caliph of Islam desecrated the head of Muhammad’s grandson – Husayn. He was rebuked by another Muslim who told him that he had seem Muhammad kiss the lips of that severed head!

ABDALLAH IBN AL-ZUBAYR’s FRUIT

Ibn Zubayr was the son of Az-Zubayr, one of Muhammad’s most prominent Companions. Following Husayn’s death Ibn Zubayr also claimed the Caliphate. He died during another later civil war in 692. Ibn Zubayr was the son of one of the most prominent Companions. When he was persecuted by Yazid he fled as Husayn but even in this dire time, jealousy of Husayn and selfish ambition ruled in his heart. Deep down he coveted the prize of ruling the Muslims as Caliph.

THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY’S FRUIT

We must not forget how the Islamic community behaved after Muhammad’s death. The day after Muhammad died they nearly came to war trying to choose the next Caliph. The Muslims were already ready to fight and kill each other. As things deteriorated under Uthman’s reign, from all over the Islamic empire they rebelled against him and journeyed to Medina to fight him. In the end many of Uthman’s closest friends deserted him. The son of the 2nd Rightly guided Caliph – Abu Bakr, was one of the ringleaders in Uthman’s murder. Following that, these renegade Muslims threatened Medina with annihilation if they did not quickly choose another Caliph.

Throughout the times sons of Caliphs fought against sons of other Caliphs. Even the sons of a prominent Companion (Az-Zubayr) hated and fought against each other. During Ali’s through Yazid’s reign the Muslims fought war after war, carried out assassinations, rebelled against and betrayed each other. As time wore on they made war in Mecca and destroyed their own Kaba. Thousands of Basrans died, thousands of Kufans died, thousands of Syrians died, thousands of Meccans died, thousands of Medinans died, thousands of Yemenis died, and thousands of Egyptians died.

The early Muslims were no more dependable and virtuous than a nest of poisonous snakes.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/rf ... judged.htm

:-?
 
Gary said:
Shinto said:
I think your essential point is that bid Laden represents the true and authentic Islam. Going back through history though, and even looking at the bulk of muslims today we do not find them acting like bin Laden. So either they don't understand their own religion properly or perhaps the analysis being made is in error.

Immediately following Muhammad's death, his followers continued to murder those around them. They used deceit and war to spread their ideas, get political control and more land and spread their religion.

The Fruits of Islam's Royal Family

[snip]

I understand where you are coming from.

I think we find a certain desire to use political/military power to gain control of wealth and territory and consolidate ideological supremacy in the early Christian Church also though.

Are you a pacifist Gary?
 
Shinto said:
Gary said:
Shinto said:
I think your essential point is that bid Laden represents the true and authentic Islam. Going back through history though, and even looking at the bulk of muslims today we do not find them acting like bin Laden. So either they don't understand their own religion properly or perhaps the analysis being made is in error.

Immediately following Muhammad's death, his followers continued to murder those around them. They used deceit and war to spread their ideas, get political control and more land and spread their religion.

The Fruits of Islam's Royal Family

[snip]

I understand where you are coming from.

I think we find a certain desire to use political/military power to gain control of wealth and territory and consolidate ideological supremacy in the early Christian Church also though.

No. In the first three centuries, Christianity spread in spite of the persecution of Christians.

:-?
 
Gary said:
Shinto said:
Gary said:
Shinto said:
I think your essential point is that bid Laden represents the true and authentic Islam. Going back through history though, and even looking at the bulk of muslims today we do not find them acting like bin Laden. So either they don't understand their own religion properly or perhaps the analysis being made is in error.

Immediately following Muhammad's death, his followers continued to murder those around them. They used deceit and war to spread their ideas, get political control and more land and spread their religion.

The Fruits of Islam's Royal Family

[snip]

I understand where you are coming from.

I think we find a certain desire to use political/military power to gain control of wealth and territory and consolidate ideological supremacy in the early Christian Church also though.

No. In the first three centuries, Christianity spread in spite of the persecution of Christians.

:-?

Very true, but I was refering to what happend once they were accepted. Namely, label those who differed from them doctrinally as heretics and relentlessly persecute them.
 
OK... so we have agreed that early Islam was NOT peaceful. We have agreed that early Christianity was peaceful.

Two totally opposite approaches.

So I stand by my premises:
  • (1) People who have murdered in Jesus' name (including the crusades) have NOT followed His example.
    (2) People who have murdered in Muhammad's name have followed Muhammad's example.
.... and the conclusion: The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same as the true living God of the Bible, Yahweh.

Jesus was right. We can spot false prophets "by their fruits."

:)
 
Gary said:
OK... so we have agreed that early Islam was NOT peaceful. We have agreed that early Christianity was peaceful.

Two totally opposite approaches.

So I stand by my premises:
  • (1) People who have murdered in Jesus' name (including the crusades) have NOT followed His example.
    (2) People who have murdered in Muhammad's name have followed Muhammad's example.
.... and the conclusion: The god of Islam, Allah, is not the same as the true living God of the Bible, Yahweh.

Jesus was right. We can spot false prophets "by their fruits."

:)

Oh Gary.

1) I think you've just said that the group that created the major doctrines of Christianity and compiled the Bible were not following Jesus properly.

2) You've sidestepped some rather difficult problems for your argument by oversimplifying. I'd like to know if you think that the vast majority of Muslims do not correctly understand their religion.

And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create. And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
 
Shinto said:
And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create.
Yes. And look at what I have shown you about Islam... during the time of Muhammad and after his death.

Shinto said:
And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
No.

Read what Muhammad did. Read what his immediate followers did.

On the other hand, Christianity was spread by the immediate followers of Jesus Christ without them shedding others blood.

.
 
Gary said:
Shinto said:
And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create.
Yes. And look at what I have shown you about Islam... during the time of Muhammad and after his death.

Shinto said:
And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
No.

Read what Muhammad did. Read what his immediate followers did.

On the other hand, Christianity was spread by the immediate followers of Jesus Christ without them shedding others blood.

.

Sure. The Muslims are much closer to the O.T. Hebrews than to the Christians.

Which raises the question of whether the Hebrew God was the same as Jesus's God.

I mean, here was have the Patriarchs of Israel and Judah doing terrible things very routinely. They certainly didn't resemble Jesus or his immediate followers any more than Mohammed.

In fact, there isn't much you can say against Mohammed you can't pin on a number of the O.T. righteous.
 
Shinto said:
Gary said:
Shinto said:
And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create.
Yes. And look at what I have shown you about Islam... during the time of Muhammad and after his death.

Shinto said:
And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
No.

Read what Muhammad did. Read what his immediate followers did.

On the other hand, Christianity was spread by the immediate followers of Jesus Christ without them shedding others blood.

.

Sure. The Muslims are much closer to the O.T. Hebrews than to the Christians.

Which raises the question of whether the Hebrew God was the same as Jesus's God.

I mean, here was have the Patriarchs of Israel and Judah doing terrible things very routinely. They certainly didn't resemble Jesus or his immediate followers any more than Mohammed.

In fact, there isn't much you can say against Mohammed you can't pin on a number of the O.T. righteous.
Jesus is the Hebrews God. They just reject him as the scriptures say. Jesus told the Pharisees "....before Abraham was I am". Nothing was created that was created except that which was created by Jesus.
 
Solo said:
Shinto said:
Gary said:
Shinto said:
And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create.
Yes. And look at what I have shown you about Islam... during the time of Muhammad and after his death.

Shinto said:
And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
No.

Read what Muhammad did. Read what his immediate followers did.

On the other hand, Christianity was spread by the immediate followers of Jesus Christ without them shedding others blood.

.

Sure. The Muslims are much closer to the O.T. Hebrews than to the Christians.

Which raises the question of whether the Hebrew God was the same as Jesus's God.

I mean, here was have the Patriarchs of Israel and Judah doing terrible things very routinely. They certainly didn't resemble Jesus or his immediate followers any more than Mohammed.

In fact, there isn't much you can say against Mohammed you can't pin on a number of the O.T. righteous.
Jesus is the Hebrews God. They just reject him as the scriptures say. Jesus told the Pharisees "....before Abraham was I am". Nothing was created that was created except that which was created by Jesus.

I know. That's the rub.

Here we have Jesus endorsing people who acted in much the same manner as Mohammed.

Makes Gary's argument difficult.
 
Shinto said:
Solo said:
Shinto said:
Gary said:
Shinto said:
And I would have thought as "fruits" Jesus was refering to the actions of the community that prophets create.
Yes. And look at what I have shown you about Islam... during the time of Muhammad and after his death.

Shinto said:
And we've acknowledged that Christianity and Islam have similarly terrible track records in those regards.
No.

Read what Muhammad did. Read what his immediate followers did.

On the other hand, Christianity was spread by the immediate followers of Jesus Christ without them shedding others blood.

.

Sure. The Muslims are much closer to the O.T. Hebrews than to the Christians.

Which raises the question of whether the Hebrew God was the same as Jesus's God.

I mean, here was have the Patriarchs of Israel and Judah doing terrible things very routinely. They certainly didn't resemble Jesus or his immediate followers any more than Mohammed.

In fact, there isn't much you can say against Mohammed you can't pin on a number of the O.T. righteous.
Jesus is the Hebrews God. They just reject him as the scriptures say. Jesus told the Pharisees "....before Abraham was I am". Nothing was created that was created except that which was created by Jesus.

I know. That's the rub.

Here we have Jesus endorsing people who acted in much the same manner as Mohammed.

Makes Gary's argument difficult.

No. Those that have acted in the manner of Mohammed are all of the same mold as Mohammed. They will all be in the same place together to share their stories with each other, in between crying and gnashing their teeth because of rejecting the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Jesus did not come, prior to Mohammed's birth, to condemn mankind, but to save mankind. It is too bad that Mohammed decided to follow the god of this world instead of the God of creation.

Of course, unless one becomes born of God, they will never see the truth.
 
Sure. The Muslims are much closer to the O.T. Hebrews than to the Christians.

Which raises the question of whether the Hebrew God was the same as Jesus's God.

I mean, here was have the Patriarchs of Israel and Judah doing terrible things very routinely. They certainly didn't resemble Jesus or his immediate followers any more than Mohammed.

In fact, there isn't much you can say against Mohammed you can't pin on a number of the O.T. righteous.

Well that about wraps this thread up!

There are mountains of evidence from the OT of God sanctioning the genocide of whole races and the killing of women and children....

JUST LIKE THE TALIBAN!

This leads us to some startling conclusions...

1. Jesus rejected the OT God and in its place worshipped a God of pacifism at worst and peace at best... (Think of how many times he contradicts the OT scripture through his actions... Its what got Him killed)

2. The God of the OT and ALLAH have the same attributes of violence and are therefore the same God.... (By the way Goliath was beheaded just like the Islamos do these days to their enemies)

2005_0867.JPG


Is this painting of David indicative of Christianity's God, Islams God, or both??? That is the question????? :-?
 
:angel:

So what do you guys think of the Painting question????

Whos God is being praised here?

Kind of reminds me of those "terrorists" that behead in the name of God....????
 
Soma-Blind said:
So what do I think of my painting question....
Not much. Usual rubbish.

Soma-Sight, David killed Goliath in battle. Have you even read your Bible? Goliath was beheaded with his own sword after he was dead. You may remember that David approached Goliath with only a sling.

However, Muslims murder and behead innocent people. Muhammad did the same.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

TROP.jpg


:o
 
The God of Christianity also ordered genocide in the old testament. If you think innocent people didnt die then, well, then you're just being plain delusional.

It seems that you justify the violence of your god, but condemn the violence of Islam's. You can't have it both ways.
 
AHIMSA said:
The God of Christianity also ordered genocide in the old testament. If you think innocent people didnt die then, well, then you're just being plain delusional.

It seems that you justify the violence of your god, but condemn the violence of Islam's. You can't have it both ways.

God can do what he wants to. It is his creation. Unfortunately your eyes only see the physical side of things, and are blinded to the spiritual side of things. Repent and believe and follow Jesus, and you will be surprised at the difference in your changed perspective. Until then you will continue to be deceived. There are many praying for you. Good luck.
 
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