Bible Study The God of rape! How do you reconcile these versus?

[Vice]

My apologies for not reading your post in full.

I don't know if the Bible says anywhere that judges should use their discretion in such matters. Do you?

No problem.

There are passages showing that judges are instructed to use their discretion and appeal to a greater authority if a case is too hard.

Exodus 18:13-27 - Jethro suggested that Moses appoint leaders to hear the individual cases. The key verses here are v.22 and v.26. I'll reprint the first part of verse 22 for you here:

"Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simplest cases they can decide for themselves.

Cross reference that with Deuteronomy 1:15-18 and you have judges using discretion when dealing with each case.

The fact that they were instructed to bring cases that were "too difficult to decide" to Moses indicates that they knew matters of the law were not cut-and-dry every time. No doubt they would have used their discretion when dealing with matters regarding rape.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[Tzalam]

The Bible, the KJV, IS inerrant, and the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY
way anyone will EVER agree that the Bible is the Word of God
is WHEN THAT PERSON IS TRULY BORN AGAIN, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD RESIDES WITHIN THAT PERSON.
GIVING THEM A NEW HEART, MIND, AND EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR.
Until then, no, no one, not anyone, will ever be able to reconcile themselves to the Holy Bible.
Nor to Jesus Christ, and Who He really is.
Not until that time of being born again, will the agreement take place between the man and the Word of the Living God.

 

[DivineNames]

The fact that they were instructed to bring cases that were "too difficult to decide" to Moses indicates that they knew matters of the law were not cut-and-dry every time.

This could well have been about cases where the facts were in doubt, or an issue of interpretation etc.

Is there anything that makes it clear that a law should not be followed, if the consequence in the specific case would be unjust?

 

[Drew]

The Bible, the KJV, IS inerrant, and the ONLY, ONLY, ONLY
way anyone will EVER agree that the Bible is the Word of God
is WHEN THAT PERSON IS TRULY BORN AGAIN, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD RESIDES WITHIN THAT PERSON.
GIVING THEM A NEW HEART, MIND, AND EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR.
Until then, no, no one, not anyone, will ever be able to reconcile themselves to the Holy Bible.
Nor to Jesus Christ, and Who He really is.
Not until that time of being born again, will the agreement take place between the man and the Word of the Living God.

Let me see if I understand you....

Are you suggesting that someone who believes the Bible has "errors" cannot be born again and cannot have the Holy Spirit living in them?

 

[Drew]

*edited*

On the other hand, we do not help the situation when we tacitly support "dialogue by verse" or "verse wars". We need to encourage a higher quality of discussion and debate. We need to be able to look at the Bible narrative as a whole and extract themes and lessons from it at this more abtract level (as well as at the "verse" level). We need to understand the history and cultural context in which the various books were written, etc. We need also to employ sound reasoning in general.

 

[antitox]

Two points..

1. The law did not come first. Well, one law did (don't eat that!), but that only lasted a short time.

Yes it did. The issue was that the law had to come before Jesus. Get your facts straight.

God goes through a variety of sets of rules before the law comes in.

1. Eden Rules
2. Rules Change Out of Eden
3. Kill almost everyone with the flood...promised not to do it again
4. Confuses the languages.

All this happened before the law. Each seperate and distinct times when the "rules", or at least the circumstances, changed prior to the implementation of the law.

You don't even know the covenants. These were not about rules. All you know how to do is categorize, prioritize and analyze off the top. You do not know anything of what is being shown or said or what had to happen in the area of fulfillment. You don't even understand what I said.

Then, later with Jesus, the rules changed again.

2. "had to"?

The rules? See, you never got the point. I'm wasting my time with you.:roll:

I don't know if God would be happy with you painting him into a corner. How can "had to" apply to an omnipotent God?

Not in the least. He knows what he is doing. I made a very basic point, and you simply cannot see anything that I said.

Jesus could have simply come right away to take care of sins. It's not like those in Noah's time weren't degenerate enough to kill him well before all the law stuff.

Nope. You never got anything I said. Should I think you are going to understand anything else? Sad.

 

[Tzalam]

Yes, that's correct.

Now, if you own and read one of the many copies of the bible that
is wildly twisted and perverted so far from the KJV, I can understand how you'd have many problems with it.

So, first, what errors do you see in the bible?
Second, what version do you like to read most often?

 

[Drew]

Yes, that's correct.

Now, if you own and read one of the many copies of the bible that
is wildly twisted and perverted so far from the KJV, I can understand how you'd have many problems with it.

So, first, what errors do you see in the bible?
Second, what version do you like to read most often?

I appreciate your direct answer and willingness to admit to holding a position that I suspect few would hold - that someone who believes the Bible has "errors" cannot be born again and cannot have the Holy Spirit living in them.

I read mostly from the NIV and the NASB.

An example of an "error": I believe that God never ordered the wholesale slaughter of entire groups of people (such as the slaughter of the Amelekites as recorded in 1 Samuel 15). I believe this account is false because I cannot reconcile the notion of a loving God with the use of human instrumentality to put infants to death.

I also do not believe in a 10,000 year old earth-although you may well not hold to a literalist position and still claim inerrancy - and that certainly is a stance that could be argued for.

I have to be honest - I suspect (but do not know for sure) that you and I will be so far apart on certain fundamental issues that we probably won't get too far. Nevertheless, if you wish to make a real case (not a "ya just gotta believe it" kind of case) for Biblical inerrancy (and especially that you can't be saved without believing in this doctrine), then by all means proceed. If there is real substance in it, I will doubtless learn something.

 

[Bick]

The God of rape! How do we reconcile it?

LISTEN: Yes, there are many accounts where God instructed the Israelites to slaughter all those living in a conquered city: men, women--
pregnant or not, babies, all animals, etc.

And the accounts of rape, with little retribution.

I reconcile it, because I believe that through the ages (a finite series of age-times), there is death , destruction, sickness, all kinds of evil in the world, and seemingly evil acts of God, BUT, most of this is due to the depravity of fallen man, his disobedience.

BUT is God surprised? If God wants to reveal His love as a saviour-redeemer, than mankind must need saving. One verse among many, that expresses this so well is Rom. 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." NIV.

At the end of the ages, the New Heavens and Earth being the last age (I believe), when all judgements are completed, and all enemies have been subjected to Christ, the last enemy being destroyed is DEATH; then he turns over this reign to God his Father that God may be All in all.
1 Cor. 15:20-28.

With no more death, than there is no more sin, as stated in Heb. 9:26 CV
"..yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons (ages), for the repudiation of sin through his sacrifice, is He manifest."

So, our Sovereign God who loves the world through his son, will some day lose none, but will be Everything to everyone.

Bick

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Alright, we need to take a breather. Calling people names and outright flaming is not okay. I find it hard to see someone telling another they are not a Christian and doing so in such an un-Christ like manner. Until the mod for this forum comes in to take care of the attacks that have been thrown on the board, this needs to settle down. If you cannot address someone without attack, do not address at all.

 

[Judy]

I have edited or deleted some of the flaming replys in this topic. Can we please stay on topic and address the issue and stop attacking the person. :o
If we continue with the flaming remarks I will lock this topic. :-?

 

[Abiyah]

LyricsDad,

Is it NOT written that satan did the same thing ? That he quoted Scripture to Christ, however, satan added just enough to make it a lie when he did, and it was that little part that he had added which made it a lie ; Matthew 4:1-11. And did not the cheif preists, and elders, and council look for liars to call Jesus Christ a liar ? YES ! It is written in Matthew 26:59-61, they made Christ out to be a liar, just as this "so-called" website vince want us all to look at, and learn from. WE as Christians are familiar with the works of satan, we are aware of how he works iniquity. And We know that satan is the father of liars, as it is written in John 8:44. Anyone who claims that God is a liar, is evil ! Anyone that calls God a liar has NOT the Truth in them. And who said vinc was not a Christian ? I didn't, nor did Relic! However, I do remember Christ telling us how to tell if someone was a true Christian; I believe Christ said, and it is written, " YE shall KNOW them by their fruits" Matthew 7:16; [them= being those that come in His name, saying I be a Christian, Mark 13:5-6] And did Jesus Christ ever get angry ? You bet He did, and it's called "Righteous Indignation"; it is written in Mark 11:15, Matthew 21:12 ! Those that called Christ a liar, were His enemies, why would you stick up for someone who calls God a liar ? Why would you stick up for someone who claims to others that the Old Testament is "useless", and why would you stick up for someone who says that the God of the Old Testament, is not the God of the New Testament ? Why would you stick up for someone who is trying to lead God's children away from His Truth ? Why would YOU do such a thing ? What I wrote to vinc, is for his own good, because a True Christian corrects those they Love. And when you see someone on the WIDE PATH that leads to destruction, when you can clearly see one going the WRONG WAY, in the ways of the world, in the ways of false doctrine & teachings, You'd better TRY to correct them, Christ has instructed us to Love one another, and WE correct those we Love ! Don't forget what Christ has told us, regarding those that work iniquity.


Matthew 7:22-23
" MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name ? And in Thy name have we not cast out devils ? And in Thy name done many wonderful works ? And then I will profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY ! " :


Abiyah

 

[Lyric's Dad]

LyricsDad,

Is it NOT written that satan did the same thing ? That he quoted Scripture to Christ, however, satan added just enough to make it a lie when he did, and it was that little part that he had added which made it a lie ; Matthew 4:1-11. And did not the cheif preists, and elders, and council look for liars to call Jesus Christ a liar ? YES ! It is written in Matthew 26:59-61, they made Christ out to be a liar, just as this "so-called" website vince want us all to look at, and learn from. WE as Christians are familiar with the works of satan, we are aware of how he works iniquity. And We know that satan is the father of liars, as it is written in John 8:44. Anyone who claims that God is a liar, is evil ! Anyone that calls God a liar has NOT the Truth in them. And who said vinc was not a Christian ? I didn't, nor did Relic! However, I do remember Christ telling us how to tell if someone was a true Christian; I believe Christ said, and it is written, " YE shall KNOW them by their fruits" Matthew 7:16; [them= being those that come in His name, saying I be a Christian, Mark 13:5-6] And did Jesus Christ ever get angry ? You bet He did, and it's called "Righteous Indignation"; it is written in Mark 11:15, Matthew 21:12 ! Those that called Christ a liar, were His enemies, why would you stick up for someone who calls God a liar ? Why would you stick up for someone who claims to others that the Old Testament is "useless", and why would you stick up for someone who says that the God of the Old Testament, is not the God of the New Testament ? Why would you stick up for someone who is trying to lead God's children away from His Truth ? Why would YOU do such a thing ? What I wrote to vinc, is for his own good, because a True Christian corrects those they Love. And when you see someone on the WIDE PATH that leads to destruction, when you can clearly see one going the WRONG WAY, in the ways of the world, in the ways of false doctrine & teachings, You'd better TRY to correct them, Christ has instructed us to Love one another, and WE correct those we Love ! Don't forget what Christ has told us, regarding those that work iniquity.


Matthew 7:22-23
" MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name ? And in Thy name have we not cast out devils ? And in Thy name done many wonderful works ? And then I will profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY ! " :


Abiyah

Abiyah, I do not have a problem with correcting heresy. I DO however have a problem with you claiming to be a follower of Jesus and acting like a devil. I do have a problem with you referring to people as stupid, morons, etc. etc. and thinking you have the authority to tell people to get lost from these forums. If this is the type of behavior that non-believers and such are to expect from Christians, it is no wonder they do not feel very welcome. Furthermore, if you wish to address my post or the P.M. I sent you, this is not the forum for that. You can pm me and we will discuss it but out here on the open line is not appropriate for that. I will consider this matter closed unless you would like to pm me.

God bless

 

[Bick]

The God of rape--reconciling this

Tzalam: Of course the KJV is the most loved and cherished translation, because it has been the authorized version for almost 400 years.

BUT, since then, almost complete copies of the Greek scriptures have become available and knowing and understanding biblical Greek has grown by leaps and bounds with scholars compiling concordances, lexicons, etc.

With bibles being printed, and becoming available to the average man who can read and write; with concordances, lexicons and commentaries so accessible and reasonable (in cost), theologians and students can check for themselves, and note any inconsistencies from the originals.

That being said, let us look at some contradictions, not only in the KJV, but also the RSC, NRSV, NIV, New KJ, etc:

Luke 1:32,33 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David; And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Compare with 1 Cor. 15:22-27,28

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruit; afterward they that are Christs at his coming; then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him who put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

If Christ reigns "forever" , then the apostle Paul is wrong. How can they be reconciled?

God bless, Bick

 

[Ruben]

If we are truly 'known' by our fruits, wouldn't appointing one's self as 'accuser and judge' of others indicate that they are followers of the Accuser?

 

[Abiyah]

If we are truly 'known' by our fruits, wouldn't appointing one's self as 'accuser and judge' of others indicate that they are followers of the Accuser?

Hi there Reuben !

lol, lol, lol... It is my understanding that what Christ was teaching us when He told us " Ye shall know them by their fruits"; is that, Do they [meaning them] teach God's Word, or do they not ? If they teach other than what our Heavenly Father has written then wouldn't they be vile and/or bad fruit ? And if they ADD to the Word of God, stating things other that what it written, would that not be bad fruit ? Jesus also instructed us to " Judge NOT " [ Matthew 7:1 ]; However, I believe that we are to utilize "spiritual discernment", to discern whether one is of Christ, or just claiming to be a Christian. I believe that is why Jesus Christ told us to "Beware of the leaven" [Matthew 16:6 & Mark 8:15], that leaven being symbolic of false doctrine. However, we should actually begin a thread with regards to this Scripture, to receive some insight from others through & with the Word of God, as we together on this forum "Rightly divide the Word of Truth" [ II Timothy 2:15]. I see you had responded in your post stated above to my post, in which I reminded others that "Ye shall know them by there fruits"; Although, that was a post in which I responded to which, Praise be to God!, was removed, as it exercised false accusations with regards to Our Heavenly Father, and His Beloved Son Christ Jesus, our Lord. In addition to that, the previous post showed false doctrine, and was bringing forth a bit of idol worship. So that is the reason I wrote we know them by their fruits, and that is the only reason.

Abiyah


P.S. I'll start a thread regarding " Ye shall know them by there fruits", sound like a good idea Reuben ? :D