THE GOLDEN RULE

[PeterJens]

Obedience is central to our walk with Christ.

If you love me, you will obey me.
That's the centrality to our walk with Christ and our calling ourselves Christian.
But Christ is not central to your life because you are in disobedience.
The Lord doesn't trust you. Bottom line.

"The Lord doesn't trust you" - I have to say this is rather presumptuous. Are you now a prophet speaking Gods revelation to me personally?

I live in disobedience... what are you referring to?
Bottom line your approach in theology and propositions mean whatever you believe, what you want to share from the Lord is your own imaginations.

You remind me of another believer who was convinced they were right but were very confused about take the yoke of Jesus on us, which He shares so we can learn from Him. Once you realise we have to learn from the Lord and be discipled there is not a place of arriving or daily list of orders, but rather a shared walk of love with the Lord.

If one cannot humble oneself and walk meekly before the Lord and mankind, then one has not begun the walk.
This is because we change through our walk and learning to love and share with others.

Paul the apostle realised many could fake coming to faith, but if they did not show the fruit of repentance, they did not know Jesus. And this is the key issue. The message is the light being switched on. What we do as a result is the fruit of faith and proof of Gods work in our hearts. If one says it is just hearing the voice of God, the emphasis is in the wrong place.

God bless you

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jas 4:1 What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?
Jas 4:2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.
Jas 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.
Jas 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (ESV)

The context of verse 4 is that of verses 1-3. That is, being a friend of the world is to be like those who cause quarrels and fights, who murder and covet, and who want to get from God so they can spend it on their passions. In other words, it is spiritual adultery.

What James 4 has nothing to do with is whether or not we are to love unbelievers. The entire NT supports the notion that we are to love everyone, including unbelievers. If we do not follow Christ in doing so, we are not following him at all.

As God says anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

 

[Free]

As God says anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

He does, but what that means is given by the context I provided, and doesn’t at all mean what you previously said:

“And don't think you're good to go if you love the unsaved as long as you're not his or her friend you're in obedience. God still calls it disobedience and rebellion to His Word. It's practicing witchcraft.”

Nowhere is that taught in scripture. Jesus and the apostles taught quite the opposite of what you’re saying. We are to love everyone, even unbelievers, just as God loved us while we were still sinners.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hi J, sorry for delay.
If the bringing in of Gentiles is momentary, does this mean God will discard us one day?

How do you equate "bring us in" with "discarding?"
If you are true born of God, you're in.
Or have you forgotten He said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Did the Covenant made with Abraham and Moses include the Gentiles?

The Covenant was with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jacob's twelve sons and their children. The nations (Goyim) would be blessed because of the Covenant God made with Abraham. It was to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. It was not to the Gentile first and also to the Jew. There's an order to be respected. It's a Jewish Covenant. Gentiles are grafted in. It's not a Gentile Covenant and Jews are grafted in.

Was Abraham told he would be the Father of many? Even his name was changed by God.

And he was the father of many. There was Isaac and Jacob and sons of twelve tribes that spread out to the ends of the earth. All Jewish.

Everyone on this forum knows that Jesus came to His people.
He said He came for HIS SHEEP, but then He also said that He had sheep in another fold.
John 10:16
15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Jews are His fold and He is the Shepherd. The other fold are Gentile believers.

Now, that sounds to me like Jesus wanted to create ONE FOLD.

Yes, but He's not done it at this present time. When He ascends to His throne is the earliest He will make one fold. The latest is when we all return back into Trinity from where we first started out.

Are you of the opinion that there are TWO FOLD?

At present time, yes.

One Jewish and One Christian?

Yes.

Jesus said to be one:
John 17:20
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one;

That could have one of several meanings.

I agree with you that the Christian believers worshipped with the Jews in the synagogue in the beginning, but by the time of the destruction of the temple in 70AD, they had already been banished from worshipping with the Jews and were worshipping in homes of believers.

I never said that Jews and Gentiles worshiped together. In the beginning of the Church (Pentecost) Jews persecuted Saul/Paul and called his Christian friends and their acceptance of Jesus as their Christ and Messiah as a 'sect.'

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14.

The word "heresy" is defined as "party" [political] in context of their meaning.
"The way" was what they called those that followed Jesus. It is tied-in to what Jesus said about Himself as being "the Way, the truth, and the life."

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Gentiles being grafted in.
Paul spoke about this in Romans and that book was written in about 57 or 58, as is commonly believed.
The Gentiles were grafted in immediately upon their belief in the Messiah.

It is commonly believed to have been written four years before his death at Rome around A.D. 64.

I don't know what the difference is between sending the Apostles
TO THE WORLD
and
INTO THE WORLD.

The message Jesus gave to His apostles was to tell the twelve tribes of Israel scattered in the world that their Messiah had come. They were not sent to Gentiles per se but to Gentile lands where Jews lived.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Great Commission to go TO THE WORLD, or INTO THE WORLD to announce His teachings, which in fact He stated plainly.

Matthew 28:19-20

That's because that's where a great population of Jews live. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of THEIR prophecy and was THEIR Messiah and it was God's intent to let them know that their Messiah had come, and that God had kept His Promise.

The Apostles were to go into all the world...make disciples of all nations, and teach them to observe all that Jesus had taught and commanded.

If you know the doctrine of salvation, you can't make disciples out of wolves. They have to be saved first and then you can disciple them. But since their mission was to take a message to the Jews living in Gentile lands it was THEY whom the apostles were to make disciples for through their ministry many would come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. It makes no sense for God to send Jewish believers to Jewish brethren if none were to become saved and be taught what Jesus taught them.

Salvation is of the Jews only means that God revealed Himself through the Jews for several reasons.

And what are those reasons?

And as to knowing my place....
My place is with Jesus.

And Jesus is with the Jews, His people. He is, after all, from the tribe of Judah.

Where's yours??

My place is understanding that I benefit from the Abrahamic Covenant that began as a family covenant between God and Abraham's family of descendants. Abraham was the beginning of the Jewish race, Moses was the beginning of the Jewish nation. I know I am grafted in as a wild olive tree with the natural tree and natural branches. We Gentiles are blessed to be invited but the Jewish believers will be there by Covenant because God has made NO COVENANT with Gentiles.

You have odd ideology, if I may say so.

What I believe is Biblical.

J, I'm speaking of today.
Jesus did not teach that adulterers were to be stoned to death,
which is why Christians do not adhere to this practice.

Gentile Christians don't adhere to the practice because they're not Jewish. And as a matter of practice Israel is not a theocracy today. It is a secular government with a president and a Prime Minister and a cabinet. It's a Parliamentary form of government fashioned similar to England's form of government.

No. I'm not speaking of the Prodigal Son.
Which of the two was taken to the limit of town and put to death??
Neither one.

I'm speaking of
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

That's the way they did it when Israel was obedient to God.

Gosh. I'll try to remember this.
But Jesus DID CORRECT what Moses had taught.
And this was my point, which I don't think you understood.

Moses made no mistakes.

Gosh. I'll try to remember this!
So you believe none of the Mosaic Laws have gone to the wayside?

Only the Sacrificial system of Laws is no longer in effect. But to the Jew they still uphold all three parts of the Law of Moses as long as the government doesn't step in too much with regulations and such.

Is Deuteronomy 21 still in effect?

To the Jew first and also to the Gentile.

Any kid been stoned lately?

Look into Jewish history and find Israel had to make many concessions to get statehood and self-government. American free-world western society sensibilities had enormous effect on Britain granting Israel statehood. Remember, when the Law was given to Israel their King was God and it was a theocracy. It is not a theocracy today.

The Ceremonial Laws are no longer in effect.

To Israel, yes. But they have no Temple to offer sacrifices in, so they don't sacrifice.
But this how God has planned it. To the Jewish mind all three parts of the Mosaic Laws are still in effect. To Gentile Christians who understand the prophecies of the Old Testament and how Jesus bar Joseph had fulfilled them we understand that He's fulfilled the prophecies because we accept Him as Israel's Messiah while the Jews don't and are still waiting.

The Civil Laws are no longer in effect.

To Israel they still are. Do a search on the Jewish Supreme Court and see how judgments rendered are closely resembling of the Law of Moses' Covenant Laws.

You mentioned 2 Moral Laws.
You should know that they are still in effect and always will be.
page 1 of 2

I did? Which?

 

[PeterJens]

As God says anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

In our discussions there is a basic reference point of authority that is agreed upon.
For Christians it is scripture and the historical interpretation by theologians and the church over the centuries.
Interpretations matter because when people study a subject for a long time they deduce important emphasises that matter and can layer answers which are often complex. Even so there is often disagreement such as Arminianism and Calvinism, but often believers accept each other as walking with Jesus but with differing perspectives.

Jesus when He was tempted in the wilderness did not quote revelation from God but scripture. It is scripture that lays out the linear authority and justification of positions, right and wrong.

Often heretical groups rewrite scripture, adding their own words, or redefine the meaning of the words to fit their theology. If scripture and its concepts disagree with them, they simply ignore the scripture and continue on, calling those pointing out the facts as satanic is not uncommon, because only the enemy would undermine their position.

This is the problem when revelation through direct communication with God becomes more authoritative than the word of God. And one key indicator of this approach is telling another that they have no communication with God because they do not have the right communication with God. It leads to the idea of testing spiritual gifting like a spiritual gifting face off.

A good example of this was when Moses was challenged by Korah as to Moses's right to speak with authority to Israel. It ended very badly for Korah, and was totally insane, because everything pointed to Gods anointing of Moses and His communication with Him, and Korah was only jealous and felt he could do a better job. In the end Korah was swallowed up by the ground, and the priests who offered coals burnt by fire from the temple entrance. So it is never a good idea to challenge how anyone speaks one to one with the Lord.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

He does, but what that means is given by the context I provided, and doesn’t at all mean what you previously said:

“And don't think you're good to go if you love the unsaved as long as you're not his or her friend you're in obedience. God still calls it disobedience and rebellion to His Word. It's practicing witchcraft.”

Nowhere is that taught in scripture. Jesus and the apostles taught quite the opposite of what you’re saying. We are to love everyone, even unbelievers, just as God loved us while we were still sinners.

A small relationship point here. If an individual has no non-christian friends and most of the christian world is practicing witchcraft, it suggests a very isolated and antisocial individual without emotional ties to anyone.

If one can justify not loving anyone this way where is the role of love, because there is no loving relationship so support or even empathise with. Most of our witnessing is getting alongside others and showing love and concern, and witnessing how much Jesus's love helps and speaks to our hearts.

Living in such an unloved world it is no surprise the theology that appeals is brutal, very similar to certain religious positions where obedience to God is without feeling or mercy, just robotic and dripped in blood.

 

[jeremiah1five]

A small relationship point here. If an individual has no non-christian friends and most of the christian world is practicing witchcraft, it suggests a very isolated and antisocial individual without emotional ties to anyone.

Sounds like most of the prophets God used. John the Baptist was in the wilderness eating wild honey and locusts.
Jesus was in the world and alone. He didn't have anywhere to lay His head except on a cross and had no friends. He was ridiculed, persecuted, rejected of His own people, arrested, falsely accused, condemned to die a horrible death on a Roman cross, and finally when He needed His friends, they all forsook Him to face His trial alone. He suffered alone but didn't die alone.

If one can justify not loving anyone this way where is the role of love, because there is no loving relationship so support or even empathise with. Most of our witnessing is getting alongside others and showing love and concern, and witnessing how much Jesus's love helps and speaks to our hearts.

God is Love. And God has every right to give His Holy Love to whomever He choose and to dictate its usage. And this He's done. He's given His covenant people the twelve tribes of Israel His love, has betrothed Himself to her, and she must prove herself worthy of His Holy love and love ONLY Him. For if she loves anyone other than her betrothed then she is an adulteress and a whore.
Scripture says Christ loved His Church (Israel) and died for her. Even though Israel had been unfaithful through the years Christ remained faithful to her and the Gentile Church is no different. It makes me wonder at whether the Whore of Revelation is really the Gentile Church since I believe Christ coming back the same way He went up, and that the Gentile Church will be here on earth to go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel but while the Times of the Gentiles are over, God will be directly and intimately involved in protecting and defending Israel from her enemies, NOT in the process of judging her, but restoring her through the ministry of the two Jewish witnesses/prophets God sends upon the earth.

Living in such an unloved world it is no surprise the theology that appeals is brutal, very similar to certain religious positions where obedience to God is without feeling or mercy, just robotic and dripped in blood.

It's God's love. Let Him dictate when He gives me His love WHO to love and WHEN to love them, and if He commands His covenant people Israel to love only twelve tribes of Israel in covenant with God - which is what He's done - then I will obey Him in this and follow His dictates for He knows best and what He's doing.

 

[Who Me]

Of course, I do.
Jesus didn't come and change the Law, so the original command God gave to His Covenant Chosen people Israel still stands. It stands for the Covenant people of Israel, and it stands for the Covenant people Gentiles.
Do you know and understand the original command?
I don't think you do. I think you have a Hellenized understanding of "Who is my neighbor" which isn't what God instructed in His original command.
You have a bastardized understanding of the original command. And I'll even tell you what you're going to do. You're going to reject the Word of God and retain your own understanding of "Who is my neighbor" because you won't allow the Word of God tell you what to believe. You'd rather tell the Word of God what to say by leaning on your own understanding in the vanity of your mind. Mostly all born again Christians do that.
Now, do you want to test my prophecy?

Jesus commanded his Jewish discipline.es to go into All the world teaching them and baptising them.
Peter learnt not to call any people unclean and to preach the gospel to them.

Yes in the tul ud the commands were directed at loving the Israeli test, but a.iens, strangers, foriegners were to be treated in the same way as the Israelites treated other Israelites.

There is no distinction in how we are to treat people.

 

[PeterJens]

Sounds like most of the prophets God used. John the Baptist was in the wilderness eating wild honey and locusts.
Jesus was in the world and alone. He didn't have anywhere to lay His head except on a cross and had no friends. He was ridiculed, persecuted, rejected of His own people, arrested, falsely accused, condemned to die a horrible death on a Roman cross, and finally when He needed His friends, they all forsook Him to face His trial alone. He suffered alone but didn't die alone.

God is Love. And God has every right to give His Holy Love to whomever He choose and to dictate its usage. And this He's done. He's given His covenant people the twelve tribes of Israel His love, has betrothed Himself to her, and she must prove herself worthy of His Holy love and love ONLY Him. For if she loves anyone other than her betrothed then she is an adulteress and a whore.
Scripture says Christ loved His Church (Israel) and died for her. Even though Israel had been unfaithful through the years Christ remained faithful to her and the Gentile Church is no different. It makes me wonder at whether the Whore of Revelation is really the Gentile Church since I believe Christ coming back the same way He went up, and that the Gentile Church will be here on earth to go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble along with Israel but while the Times of the Gentiles are over, God will be directly and intimately involved in protecting and defending Israel from her enemies, NOT in the process of judging her, but restoring her through the ministry of the two Jewish witnesses/prophets God sends upon the earth.

It's God's love. Let Him dictate when He gives me His love WHO to love and WHEN to love them, and if He commands His covenant people Israel to love only twelve tribes of Israel in covenant with God - which is what He's done - then I will obey Him in this and follow His dictates for He knows best and what He's doing.

Jesus was not alone, he called His disciples His friends. For a short time they ran away, but then they were expecting Jesus to be victorious over the jewish leaders, not give in and let them kill Him. And Jesus knew true empathy weeping at the death of Lazarus, which people miss-took for believing Lazarus would stay dead. It is difficult for us to understand this dilemma, Jesus felt the grief and it moved Him, yet he also knew His friend Lazarus would rise from the grave.

Jesus talked about His people being one in love and support of each other, and there was His kingdom expressed. I have often wondered this, knowing that many are still very reactionary to other believers even though Jesus has truly touched their hearts. Paul talks very much about putting on spiritual approaches and putting off the ways of the world. Paul went so far as suggesting we should be one mind, which I have yet to see this truly worked out, but I believe it is possible. I wonder with the disputes with Peter and Paul over circumcision and with Barnabas, being of one mind was probably still aspirational rather than real.

If one visits prisons, most of the people are dysfunctional in some fundamental way, and if given the chance to learn better emotional responses and handling anger, 75% show real improvement. To see this and know its power empathy and caring for another's pain is essential but that door is only opened when ones own pains and unforgiveness are resolved. Many ministries fail because there is talent and insight, but in the end no depth in the heart, so it just makes more compromised believers thinking they have arrived when often this is just deception and a money making scheme.

When you listen to Jesus talking to Peter about his betrayal in denying him, you hear Jesus knowing Peter so well and knowing equally when Peter comes round, he will see what Jesus meant and the love there has not dimmed. In a real way this is a deep friendship that is hard to put into words. Another deep relationship was between Jesus and Mary. Jesus meant everything to her, and she wanted to honour her Lord, in a deeper way than the apostles saw.

Jesus talked to Peter also of having brothers, sisters, mothers and fathers in the Lord, because Peter followed Him. This is not being alone by any stretch. Paul arranged a widows support group for believers who lived alone, so the christian society that grew up was very integrated and caring. To walk in the Holy Spirit is to be integrated with others, because that is how love works.

God bless you

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus commanded his Jewish discipline.es to go into All the world teaching them and baptising them.
Peter learnt not to call any people unclean and to preach the gospel to them.

Jesus commanded His apostles to go into the Gentile nations TO reach His Jewish brethren living there among Gentiles to let the twelve tribes of Israel scattered know their Promised Messiah and King had come. Jesus wanted to let the twelve tribes scattered know that God has kept His Promise.

Yes in the tul ud the commands were directed at loving the Israeli test, but a.iens, strangers, foriegners were to be treated in the same way as the Israelites treated other Israelites.

Aliens and foreigners were the descendants of Ishmael and his children. It was a Jewish covenant and only the children of Abraham was part of that covenant.

There is no distinction in how we are to treat people.

God most assuredly makes distinction to Israel to not mingle with the Gentiles nor learn their ways.

15 Love not the world [non-covenant inhabitants], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 Jn 2:15.

And so that there be no confusion:

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:3–4.

So the question to Gentile Christians is:
Are you a friend of God?
Or are you His enemy?

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus commanded His apostles to go into the Gentile nations TO reach His Jewish brethren living there among Gentiles to let the twelve tribes of Israel scattered know their Promised Messiah and King had come. Jesus wanted to let the twelve tribes scattered know that God has kept His Promise.

Aliens and foreigners were the descendants of Ishmael and his children. It was a Jewish covenant and only the children of Abraham was part of that covenant.

God most assuredly makes distinction to Israel to not mingle with the Gentiles nor learn their ways.

15 Love not the world [non-covenant inhabitants], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 Jn 2:15.

And so that there be no confusion:

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:3–4.

So the question to Gentile Christians is:
Are you a friend of God?
Or are you His enemy?

Clearly you are someone who believes all christians should also be Jews.
But which part of judaism are you suggesting?
And what about Rabbis and the synagogue?

It appears believers who go down this road just end up becoming Jews and dumping Jesus.
Paul talked at length about the circumcision of the heart not the flesh for believers, and freedom from the law of celebrations and Sabbaths and linking to the temple and Jerusalem.

 

[Tenchi]

You're Gentile and you look at Messiah as though He was a Gentile idea.

I am a born-again child of God, baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus a spiritual descendent of Abraham. This is what the Bible tells me, not some faceless stranger on the internet.

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

It's all about Israel.

No, it's all about God.

Everything about God's salvation rests on the Jews for salvation is of the Jews.

No, everything about God's salvation rests upon GOD or, more precisely, upon the Savior, Jesus Christ.

This was the Jewish way to God:

Romans 10:1-3
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Here's the only true way to "God's salvation":

John 14:6
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

It isn't in a nation I find my salvation but a Person: The Lord Jesus Christ.

The Gentiles are grafted in with the Natural branches and the natural branches of the Olive Tree is Israel. The Olive Tree represents Israel. Israel is not grafted into the Gentiles tree.

Now you're just repeating yourself as though I hadn't already addressed this and shown it to be in error. Here's what I already pointed out to you:

"The whole matter of "grafting" in Romans 11 is about salvation, not membership in the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:11
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Romans 11:25-27
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Salvation has nothing to do with being in Israel but with being in Christ the Savior, who will "banish ungodliness from Jacob."

Jesus came TO and FOR the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

But not ONLY for them.

John 10:14-16
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Ephesians 2:12-16 (NASB)
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

It is a very strange thing that, in light of the plain declarations of God's word that in Christ there is "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female," that in him Jews and Gentiles have been united into one "new man," that you are so eager to separate them out from one another. Why, when Christ unites people, are you trying to divide them?

Messiah was promised to and FOR Israel. Messiah came to Israel. Messiah taught Israel. The Bride and Church is Israel. The Lord's Prayers is TO and FOR Israel. The Revelation is TO and FOR Israel. The two witnesses of Revelation are of one or two twelve tribes of Israel. Messiah sent His apostles to the twelve tribes scattered across the then-known world to herald to them that their Messiah had come as God Promised (and gone.)

You have taken up a profound degree of "either-or" thinking here, rather than the "both-and" that Scripture indicates. But false dichotomies seem to plague every region of your thinking about those who are "in Christ." As the passages I cited above clearly state, however, distinctions between Jew and Gentile are dissolved in Christ; they are all one in him:

2 Corinthians 5:14-17
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 2:18-22
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

But you and millions of Christians bastardize and Hellenize the Scripture and make Him Gentile.

??? I've done no such thing. Jesus is the God-Man, born a Jew, the promised Messiah of Israel. But he is ALSO the Savior of the whole world, dying "once for all" so that "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 10:10; Romans 10:13)

Your understanding of Scripture is from a Gentile mind and Gentile understanding and not as it is supposed to be understood and that is in light of Jewish background.

Oh, brother. See above.

There is NOTHING of God's Covenant with Israel that is Gentile (except the bringing in of Gentiles), but overall everything about God's salvation is Hebrew and Jewish.

The New Covenant established in and through Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Israel but with God our Savior, who is "all and in all," Creator of all mankind, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), reconciled to Himself through Jesus and able to enjoy daily fellowship with Him.

Colossians 1:19-20
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Your enthusiasm for division among Christians smacks very much of the attitude of the Judaizers plaguing the believers in Galatia. Certainly, I see nothing of the unifying character of the Holy Spirit in your posts. This is very telling, I think, regarding the source of your ideas.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Clearly you are someone who believes all christians should also be Jews.

Well, in a sense all who are of Christ are also of Abraham as much as all who are of Abraham are Christ's.
Not many Gentile Christians know this but as born-again believers in Jesus Christ they are also a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

But which part of judaism are you suggesting?
And what about Rabbis and the synagogue?

Jews have not accepted Jesus bar Joseph of the historical gospels was their long-awaited Messiah and King. Their stumbling block to receiving this is the fact that anyone hanging on a tree is cursed.

It appears believers who go down this road just end up becoming Jews and dumping Jesus.

Eventually they do, but not the 'dumping Jesus' part. God reinstitutes animal sacrifices when He's on the throne.

Paul talked at length about the circumcision of the heart not the flesh for believers, and freedom from the law of celebrations and Sabbaths and linking to the temple and Jerusalem.

Type and shadow.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I am a born-again child of God, baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus a spiritual descendent of Abraham. This is what the Bible tells me, not some faceless stranger on the internet.

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.



No, it's all about God.



No, everything about God's salvation rests upon GOD or, more precisely, upon the Savior, Jesus Christ.

This was the Jewish way to God:

Romans 10:1-3
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Here's the only true way to "God's salvation":

John 14:6
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

It isn't in a nation I find my salvation but a Person: The Lord Jesus Christ.



Now you're just repeating yourself as though I hadn't already addressed this and shown it to be in error. Here's what I already pointed out to you:

"The whole matter of "grafting" in Romans 11 is about salvation, not membership in the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:11
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Romans 11:25-27
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

Salvation has nothing to do with being in Israel but with being in Christ the Savior, who will "banish ungodliness from Jacob."



But not ONLY for them.

John 10:14-16
14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Ephesians 2:12-16 (NASB)
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

It is a very strange thing that, in light of the plain declarations of God's word that in Christ there is "neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female," that in him Jews and Gentiles have been united into one "new man," that you are so eager to separate them out from one another. Why, when Christ unites people, are you trying to divide them?



You have taken up a profound degree of "either-or" thinking here, rather than the "both-and" that Scripture indicates. But false dichotomies seem to plague every region of your thinking about those who are "in Christ." As the passages I cited above clearly state, however, distinctions between Jew and Gentile are dissolved in Christ; they are all one in him:

2 Corinthians 5:14-17
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Ephesians 2:18-22
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.



??? I've done no such thing. Jesus is the God-Man, born a Jew, the promised Messiah of Israel. But he is ALSO the Savior of the whole world, dying "once for all" so that "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 6:10; Hebrews 10:10; Romans 10:13)



Oh, brother. See above.



The New Covenant established in and through Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Israel but with God our Savior, who is "all and in all," Creator of all mankind, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), reconciled to Himself through Jesus and able to enjoy daily fellowship with Him.

Colossians 1:19-20
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Your enthusiasm for division among Christians smacks very much of the attitude of the Judaizers plaguing the believers in Galatia. Certainly, I see nothing of the unifying character of the Holy Spirit in your posts. This is very telling, I think, regarding the source of your ideas.

To respond correctly to some of your errors and misunderstanding of Scripture would take me beyond the 10,000-character limit. So, I'll say this in short.
Scripture says both that "Salvation is of the Jews" and "Salvation is of the LORD."
Israel was Promised a Messiah and Redeemer from among their brethren (twelve tribes of Jacob), and Messiah came from their brethren, Judah to be exact. He did not come to Gentiles but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Israel is Betrothed to God and this makes Israel the true Bride. "The Great Congregation" is identified as Israel of twelve tribes and their descendants and thus making them the true Church.
Gentiles are grafted in. God made no covenant with Gentiles and every Gentile in this Time of the Gentiles will give way to God placing His former full attention back on Israel in the near future and will save His Chosen people Israel She is His Bride. She is His Church. She is His people.
Gentiles who in this epoch are only blessed through the covenant God made will Abraham but God made no covenant with Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there by covenant. Gentiles are there by invitation.
And I'll give you this one point: Christ said He will make two into one but there will still be distinction between the two.
God made no covenant with Gentiles.

 

[Tenchi]

Scripture says both that "Salvation is of the Jews" and "Salvation is of the LORD."

Are you suggesting that the Jews are co-Savior with Jesus Christ? I sure hope not. As the Scriptures I cited already plainly state, there is only ONE Savior and it isn't the nation Israel. Jesus was born to Jewish parents, the promised Messiah of Israel, but this no more makes Israel co-Savior with Jesus than President Biden taking a car to the oval office from home makes the car his co-President. Israel was a kind of "vehicle" through which Jesus entered the world but he came to "take away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) and to reconcile sinners of whatever nation to God, not establish Israel as a super-select nation above and before all others.

Israel was Promised a Messiah and Redeemer from among their brethren (twelve tribes of Jacob), and Messiah came from their brethren, Judah to be exact.

No, Christ came from God through Israel. It is God who is the Origin of the Messiah, not Israel. The Jewish nation was merely a vehicle, or avenue, through which He sent His only Son to atone for the sins of all mankind; it had nothing whatever to do with producing, or bringing the Messiah into being. (Philippians 2:5-8)

He did not come to Gentiles but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Wrong. See my earlier posts. See above (John 1:29).

Israel is Betrothed to God and this makes Israel the true Bride.

All those redeemed by Christ - Jew or Gentile - are members of his "body," not merely his "bride." See my earlier posts.

Gentiles are grafted in.

To Christ, their salvation, the Vine of John 15:4-5, not into Israel. Again, see my earlier posts which you haven't rebutted in the slightest.

God made no covenant with Gentiles and every Gentile in this Time of the Gentiles will give way to God placing His former full attention back on Israel in the near future and will save His Chosen people Israel She is His Bride. She is His Church. She is His people.

Merely repeating unjustified assertions does not serve as an effective argument for your views.

And I'll give you this one point: Christ said He will make two into one but there will still be distinction between the two.
God made no covenant with Gentiles.

And this is why you qualify as a purveyor of false doctrine. You haven't the authority to adjust the plain declaration of Scripture which unequivocally makes all people who trust in Christ as Savior and Lord - Jew or Greek, male of female - one - that is the same - in him.

 

[PeterJens]

Well, in a sense all who are of Christ are also of Abraham as much as all who are of Abraham are Christ's.
Not many Gentile Christians know this but as born-again believers in Jesus Christ they are also a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jews have not accepted Jesus bar Joseph of the historical gospels was their long-awaited Messiah and King. Their stumbling block to receiving this is the fact that anyone hanging on a tree is cursed.

Eventually they do, but not the 'dumping Jesus' part. God reinstitutes animal sacrifices when He's on the throne.

Type and shadow.

"God reinstitutes animal sacrifices when He's on the throne."

Anyone who understands Jesus being the atoning sacrifice, once for all, doing away with sacrifices of animals forever.

1 But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Sacrifices where about atoning for sin and as Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for sins of the whole world there is no need for animal sacrifices. The animal sacrifices were the shadow of Christ dying for the world. The reason the curtain was torn in two is because the need for sacrifices has now been removed.

And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Heb 10:18

If God reinstitutes animal sacrifices then their objective Jesus has failed. How can the blood of animals make people clean? Because it is the shadow of love giving up its life at the hands of sinners so they might know there is a way back through Him and the cross.

Obviously sinful hearts need resolving and as the only way is through animal sacrifices they must be re-established. But if Jesus and His love carried in peoples hearts makes them cleansed, holy, perfect, there is no need for animal sacrifices because sin has be removed.

This is where belief in who Jesus is and how His actions work on our hearts eternally, means we follow different theologies. And each side is convinced they are right because it fits with who they are.

I have seen these linear models being built and they are fantastic in their own rights, but in the end, it is the Lord who judges and declares His ways. Korah was convinced he was right, right up to the time the ground swallowed him.

God bless you

 

[jeremiah1five]

"God reinstitutes animal sacrifices when He's on the throne."

Anyone who understands Jesus being the atoning sacrifice, once for all, doing away with sacrifices of animals forever.

1 But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Sacrifices where about atoning for sin and as Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for sins of the whole world there is no need for animal sacrifices. The animal sacrifices were the shadow of Christ dying for the world. The reason the curtain was torn in two is because the need for sacrifices has now been removed.

And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
Heb 10:18

If God reinstitutes animal sacrifices then their objective Jesus has failed. How can the blood of animals make people clean? Because it is the shadow of love giving up its life at the hands of sinners so they might know there is a way back through Him and the cross.

Obviously sinful hearts need resolving and as the only way is through animal sacrifices they must be re-established. But if Jesus and His love carried in peoples hearts makes them cleansed, holy, perfect, there is no need for animal sacrifices because sin has be removed.

This is where belief in who Jesus is and how His actions work on our hearts eternally, means we follow different theologies. And each side is convinced they are right because it fits with who they are.

I have seen these linear models being built and they are fantastic in their own rights, but in the end, it is the Lord who judges and declares His ways. Korah was convinced he was right, right up to the time the ground swallowed him.

God bless you

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,
To serve him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be his servants,
Every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it,
And taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
And make them joyful in my house of prayer:
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
For mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Is 56:6–7.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations
Which came against Jerusalem
Shall even go up from year to year
To worship the King, the LORD of hosts,
And to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zech. 14:16.

Animal sacrifices reinstituted.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are you suggesting that the Jews are co-Savior with Jesus Christ? I sure hope not.

Redemption History.
God's plan is progressive.
It's a very interesting study. When the basics are in place everything falls into place.
Of course, God opens the eye as surely as He closes the eye. He'll only allow you to know what is good for your measure for a particular time and place since He is the One who controls the light an individual - or generation - receives.

As the Scriptures I cited already plainly state, there is only ONE Savior and it isn't the nation Israel. Jesus was born to Jewish parents, the promised Messiah of Israel, but this no more makes Israel co-Savior with Jesus than President Biden taking a car to the oval office from home makes the car his co-President. Israel was a kind of "vehicle" through which Jesus entered the world but he came to "take away the sin of the world" (John 1:29) and to reconcile sinners of whatever nation to God, not establish Israel as a super-select nation above and before all others.

There you go. One aspect of Redemptive History.

No, Christ came from God through Israel. It is God who is the Origin of the Messiah, not Israel. The Jewish nation was merely a vehicle, or avenue, through which He sent His only Son to atone for the sins of all mankind; it had nothing whatever to do with producing, or bringing the Messiah into being. (Philippians 2:5-8)
Wrong. See my earlier posts. See above (John 1:29).
All those redeemed by Christ - Jew or Gentile - are members of his "body," not merely his "bride." See my earlier posts.

God made no covenant with Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb Israel is there through covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation.

To Christ, their salvation, the Vine of John 15:4-5, not into Israel. Again, see my earlier posts which you haven't rebutted in the slightest.
Merely repeating unjustified assertions does not serve as an effective argument for your views.
And this is why you qualify as a purveyor of false doctrine. You haven't the authority to adjust the plain declaration of Scripture which unequivocally makes all people who trust in Christ as Savior and Lord - Jew or Greek, male of female - one - that is the same - in him.

False doctrine? Do you accept Scripture as written? Let's see.
The Holy Spirit says all the angels that sinned are cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment. 2 Peter 2:4.

The angels that sinned are locked up and are not loose on the planet.
Do you accept this Word of Truth about the angels that sinned?

 

[PeterJens]

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD,
To serve him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be his servants,
Every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it,
And taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain,
And make them joyful in my house of prayer:
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar;
For mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Is 56:6–7.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations
Which came against Jerusalem
Shall even go up from year to year
To worship the King, the LORD of hosts,
And to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zech. 14:16.

Animal sacrifices reinstituted.

There is a view of interpretation that would take the burnt offerings and sacrifices as now a spiritual equivalent.

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.
16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Heb 13:15-16

Sacrifices are offered as atonement for sin as well as thanks giving to the Lord for His gracious blessing. The christian jews were very aware of the promises given to Israel with regard to the temple etc. but with Jesus being the fulfilment of the sacrifice for sin, the temple being believers hearts, the role of Zion become figurative.

16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?
17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
1 Cor 3:16-17

21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit
Eph 2:21-22

Once one accepts the role of the physical temple has ceased and Gods people are now His temple the prophecies stay the same but the context shifts. Prophecy is complicated because it often talks about emotional intent, praise and blessing, with the blessed being Gods people, and those judged being Gods enemies. The Lord uses imagery like the statue in Daniel regarding the future of Babylon, which is not actually a statue but a metaphor for how things develop and later fail. The exact details can distract from the over all message.

It is why the apostles did not understand Jesus dying for the sins of the world. No prophecy talked openly about this, or how love was the fulfilment of Israel, just living Gods way and victory over the world. So giving in to the romans and rulers of Israel was clearly not there, yet that was actually Gods path.

Personally if the Lord choses something else, Amen, but however we look at scripture it needs to be consistent throughout. Re-establishing a physical temple with animal sacrifices does not make any spiritual sense but rather a denial of love and the cross and its eternal significance.

God bless you

 

[Tenchi]

God made no covenant with Gentiles.
At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb Israel is there through covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation.

Written to the Gentiles of the province of Galatia:

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

False doctrine? Do you accept Scripture as written? Let's see.
The Holy Spirit says all the angels that sinned are cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment. 2 Peter 2:4.

The angels that sinned are locked up and are not loose on the planet.
Do you accept this Word of Truth about the angels that sinned?

Red herring.

And yes, you are promoting false doctrine against the plain declaration of Scripture (as I've shown repeatedly now).