Bible Study The Gospel: Propositions or Person?

[for_his_glory]

Tenchi

It was you who initiated the replies I made back to you plus that of what miamited and Josef posted. We have all replied to the points of your OP, but because you will not consider the replies of others then there is no discussion other then you are right and everyone else are wrong or off topic.

You need to go back and re-read all your replies, especially the ones below you made to me.

you said, #13 Well, show me from the Gospels where Christ gave a crystal clear, unveiled, full accounting of the Gospel prior to the cross.

you said #16 My initial point was that Jesus purposefully didn't share the Gospel (as we understand it this side of his atoning work on the cross) because his main aim in coming to earth was to be the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," not an evangelist. So, Jesus isn't a great example of sharing the Gospel, as you suggested.

I said #18 Jesus didn't share the Gospel as He is the Gospel message as He was very clear in who He was and still is before the cross and after the cross. Where is your source for such a statement.


Once again Jesus did not share the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because Jesus is the Gospel message way before they were ever written.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus didn't share the Gospel as He is the Gospel message as He was very clear in who He was and still is before the cross and after the cross.

Where is your source for such a statement.

Jesus is never called the Gospel in the New Testament, though he is called our Salvation (Luke 2:30; Acts 4:12; 2 Timothy 2:10, etc.), our Savior (Luke 2:11; Acts 5:30-31; Ephesians 5:23, etc.), the Way, the Truth, the Life (John 14:6), the Door (John 10:7, 9), and so on. Instead, Scripture says he preached the "gospel of the kingdom of God" (Mark 1:14), not the Gospel of Salvation his disciples preached in Acts. What was the "gospel" that Jesus preached?

Luke 4:14-21
14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Where is any mention made here of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins? Where does Jesus say anything about spiritual regeneration by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-13)? Where does he speak of trusting in himself as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, by his shed blood at Calvary cleansing sinners of the stain of their sin (Hebrews 9-10)? Where does he refer to the "new nature" imparted to the born-again person who receives the "second birth" (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20)?

As for it being "very clear" before the cross who Jesus was, I would point you to the instances where even Christ's own disciples (the Twelve) demonstrated ignorance as to his nature and purpose. (Mark 4:35-41; Mark 6:48-52; Mark 9:7-13; Mark 9:30-32; Matthew 16:21-23, etc.)

Even to his own inner circle of disciples, it was not "very clear" who Jesus was prior to his post-resurrection appearances. Upon his death, they mourned him as they would any other person who'd expired, refusing at first to believe he had resurrected (Mark 16:8-11; Luke 24:10-12), revealing in this how little they understood of their Master.

 

[Tenchi]

@Tenchi, for_his_glory makes a good point. Jesus is the good news.

He is the heart of the Good News of the Gospel, yes, but there is more to the Gospel - the Good News of Salvation - than Jesus.

Is this not a public proclamation, by Jesus, of who He was?

Is it? Please read my reply to @ for_his_glory. In fact, the words of Isaiah that Jesus read did not clarify well at all who Jesus was and what he would do at Calvary. This was well-illustrated by the way in which his own Twelve (actually, eleven) disciples reacted to his crucifixion and to the news of his resurrection.

This is a universally accepted Messianic prophecy. Jesus was applying it to Himself in a public setting.

Yes, I'm well aware. See above.

 

[Tenchi]

@Tenchi

It was you who initiated the replies I made back to you plus that of what @miamited and @Josef posted. We have all replied to the points of your OP, but because you will not consider the replies of others then there is no discussion other then you are right and everyone else are wrong or off topic.

No, you are all of you not actually addressing the primary point of my OP but offering tangential remarks instead. There's no law that says you can't do this, of course, but I wonder why there is such a universal refusal to actually engage with the main point of my OP.

You need to go back and re-read all your replies, especially the ones below you made to me.

Well, I've responded directly and carefully to what you've written - unlike how you've dealt with the main point of my OP. I haven't agreed entirely with your remarks but this doesn't mean I haven't understood them or have ignored them. I think my responses deal very directly and clearly with the things you've put forward - again, in sharp contrast to how you've dealt with my OP.

you said, #13 Well, show me from the Gospels where Christ gave a crystal clear, unveiled, full accounting of the Gospel prior to the cross.

you said #16 My initial point was that Jesus purposefully didn't share the Gospel (as we understand it this side of his atoning work on the cross) because his main aim in coming to earth was to be the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," not an evangelist. So, Jesus isn't a great example of sharing the Gospel, as you suggested.

I said #18 Jesus didn't share the Gospel as He is the Gospel message as He was very clear in who He was and still is before the cross and after the cross. Where is your source for such a statement.

See my last reply to you in this thread.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,

"Where is any mention made here of the atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins? Where does Jesus say anything about spiritual regeneration by the indwelling Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-13)? Where does he speak of trusting in himself as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, by his shed blood at Calvary cleansing sinners of the stain of their sin (Hebrews 9-10)? Where does he refer to the "new nature" imparted to the born-again person who receives the "second birth" (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20)?" Quote from Tenchi

You are adding all of those extra facts only because you know them. The people in that synagogue would not have known them. Those are futuristic facts this crowd could not possibly know.
They would have known that Isaiah 61:1-2 is Messianic. Jesus takes these words and applies them to Himself. Jesus was publicly proclaiming Himself to be the Christ. Jesus did not do this secretly or vaguely. The crowd's, or even His disciples' reaction does not change this truth.
Again they are dealing with this information real-time; and not with the hindsight of a completed New Testament.


"No, you are all of you not actually addressing the primary point of my OP but offering tangential remarks instead. There's no law that says you can't do this, of course, but I wonder why there is such a universal refusal to actually engage with the main point of my OP." Quote from Tenchi

What do you want from us? I thought this was a discussion.

"Bob: Hey, have you heard the Gospel?

Nancy: No. What's the Gospel?" Quote from Tenchi

Are those not your original questions?
How are we not addressing them sufficiently?
You are a teacher. I used to teach as well. When my students did not understand what I was teaching them, who's fault was it? Mine.

So make us understand what you are saying. We are not against you.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Tenchi]

You are adding all of those extra facts only because you know them. The people in that synagogue would not have known them. Those are futuristic facts this crowd could not possibly know.

This is actually part of my point.

They would have known that Isaiah 61:1-2 is Messianic.

Right. But they had no idea in what way Christ would ultimately fulfill the prophecy. Which was also part of my point.

Jesus was publicly proclaiming Himself to be the Christ.

His Jewish audience expected a Messiah who would be a conquering King, not a dying Savior. Jesus knew this, of course, and understood that how his audience took his proclamation of fulfilled prophecy would be entirely different from how they ought to have taken it. So this instance doesn't at all represent an example of evangelism as for_his_glory has suggested. It is, as I said, at best a very veiled indication of Christ's role that offered nothing of the actual post-Calvary Gospel his disciples went on to proclaim.

Jesus did not do this secretly or vaguely. The crowd's, or even His disciples' reaction does not change this truth.

??? Please re-read my past posts.

What do you want from us? I thought this was a discussion.

??? Well, how about actually engaging with the main point of my OP? That would be nice.

Are those not your original questions?
How are we not addressing them sufficiently?

You are fussing over the details of an illustration I used to make another point entirely. Yikes.

You are a teacher. I used to teach as well. When my students did not understand what I was teaching them, who's fault was it? Mine.

It might have been. I don't know what sort of a teacher you were. In my experience, though, I've observed that all sorts of factors interfere with the dissemination of knowledge, most of which reside in the environment or student, not the teacher (if the teacher has at least decent skill as a teacher).

So make us understand what you are saying. We are not against you.

All that I need to say about my OP has been said. What remains is for you to set aside whatever inner barriers/filters/prejudices you have to considering the main point of OP as it was plainly written.

Here, let me quote my main point for you from my OP:

"What's Bob's basic problem in sharing the Gospel in this scenario? He doesn't know what it is to experience God personally and directly."

"...if I know what distinguishes these things in my life as His work, then I can easily answer Nancy's questions above, telling her, not about propositions of truth, but about my real, life-changing experience of a Person."

"It's the Person revealed in the Gospel, our Savior, Jesus Christ people need to know personally and intimately, not mere propositions of Truth about him."

See? My main point is stated in my OP, repeatedly.

Look, it's fine with me if you want to be off-point; just don't object to my making note of this in my own comments.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus is never called the Gospel in the New Testament, though he is called our Salvation

No one is saying that Jesus was called the Gospel or called Himself the Gospel. The Gospels were not written until Jesus ascended up to the Father and the Holy Spirit was sent down in whom opened the Spiritual eyes and Spiritual ears of the Disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as they then had Spiritual knowledge of all those things Jesus taught them and each one wrote their witness of Jesus testifying of that which they were taught.

Why is this so hard for you to understand.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is actually part of my point.



Right. But they had no idea in what way Christ would ultimately fulfill the prophecy. Which was also part of my point.



His Jewish audience expected a Messiah who would be a conquering King, not a dying Savior. Jesus knew this, of course, and understood that how his audience took his proclamation of fulfilled prophecy would be entirely different from how they ought to have taken it. So this instance doesn't at all represent an example of evangelism as for_his_glory has suggested. It is, as I said, at best a very veiled indication of Christ's role that offered nothing of the actual post-Calvary Gospel his disciples went on to proclaim.



??? Please re-read my past posts.



??? Well, how about actually engaging with the main point of my OP? That would be nice.



You are fussing over the details of an illustration I used to make another point entirely. Yikes.



It might have been. I don't know what sort of a teacher you were. In my experience, though, I've observed that all sorts of factors interfere with the dissemination of knowledge, most of which reside in the environment or student, not the teacher (if the teacher has at least decent skill as a teacher).



All that I need to say about my OP has been said. What remains is for you to set aside whatever inner barriers/filters/prejudices you have to considering the main point of OP as it was plainly written.

Here, let me quote my main point for you from my OP:

"What's Bob's basic problem in sharing the Gospel in this scenario? He doesn't know what it is to experience God personally and directly."

"...if I know what distinguishes these things in my life as His work, then I can easily answer Nancy's questions above, telling her, not about propositions of truth, but about my real, life-changing experience of a Person."
directing your OP away from whatever intention you were making with it.
"It's the Person revealed in the Gospel, our Savior, Jesus Christ people need to know personally and intimately, not mere propositions of Truth about him."

See? My main point is stated in my OP, repeatedly.

Look, it's fine with me if you want to be off-point; just don't object to my making note of this in my own comments.

OIC, you are the only one who is allowed to converse with what we have replied with being off topic, but we are not allowed to reply to yours!!!

No honest discussion from you so I'm out of here. You have a good night

 

[Tenchi]

No one is saying that Jesus was called the Gospel or called Himself the Gospel.

Oh? You wrote:

"I said #18 Jesus didn't share the Gospel as He is the Gospel message..."

"Once again Jesus did not share the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, because Jesus is the Gospel message..."

You have written here that Jesus is the Gospel. So, someone is saying the very thing you've denied above is being said.

The Gospels were not written until Jesus ascended up to the Father and the Holy Spirit was sent down in whom opened the Spiritual eyes and Spiritual ears of the Disciples, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as they then had Spiritual knowledge of all those things Jesus taught them and each one wrote their witness of Jesus testifying of that which they were taught.

Why is this so hard for you to understand.

Why is it so hard for you to make yourself clear?

I've already noted to you that speaking of The Gospel (the Good News of Salvation) and the Gospels (the four synoptic accounts of Christ's life and teachings) at the same time can create confusion, as you've demonstrated in this thread:

"...What are "the Gospels"? There is only one Gospel of Salvation. There are, in the Bible, The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, which contain the Gospel of Salvation, but are historical accounts of the Person and teachings of Jesus Christ. Is it a good idea to immediately mix up these two Gospels, the historical accounts of Jesus, and the Good News of reconciliation of sinners to a holy God through him?"

OIC, you are the only one who is allowed to converse with what we have replied with being off topic, but we are not allowed to reply to yours!!!

??? Do you know what a rhetorical Strawman is? You've made one right here.

No honest discussion from you so I'm out of here. You have a good night

I'm sorry to say that this is the pot calling the kettle black. A strange bit of projection, it seems to me.

In any case, you have a good night, too.