THE INQUISITION: A Study in Absolute Catholic Power

[Imagican]

D,

Thank you for your offering of documented PROOF of what we have been discussing for so long. Fran is of the opinion that we would rather 'make up' history than actually study it.

Fran,

As I have stated on numerous occasions, I DO NOT hold the sins of the CC against YOU or ANY individual. But that they actually happened is 'FACT not some 'made up' illusion of mine or anyone elses. It is the CC itself that would fabricate it's behavior in the past and make excuses of how it was NOT their doing but 'someone elses'. That in itself goes to show just how 'repentant' they are towards their misdeeds of the past.

D46 has offered OVERWHELMING evidence of the sort that I have offered you over and over again yet you 'still' choose to stand by an attitude of denial.

The CC DID NOT EXISTS until Constantine allowed Christianity into Roman culture. You may choose to 'believe' that it did, but PREVIOUS to Constantine's allowal of the introduction of Christianity THERE WAS NO ORGANIZED Christian Church in Rome. So we find that the TRUE CC did not exist until over three hundred years AFTER the death of Christ. You certainly may choose to believe in the propaganda of the CC but history bears a 'different' record.

And let us NOT forget that MANY of the Roman followers of the CC were the SAME people that were previously feeding Christians to lions and having them chopped to pieces by gladiators. Homosexuality was rampent among these people as were HUNDREDS of other religions. These were a people that a 'simple introduction to Christ' was NOT capable of changing overnight.

And your Christmas tree analogy? Let us study what The Word offers concerning such instead of simply stating one's opinion of it's validity, shall we?

Jeremiah 10:1

1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

7Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

8But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.

Fran, you, of course, may choose to interpret this scripture as it 'pleases' you. I, on the other hand, choose to accept it as offered. Now, WHY do you think that this is offered AT ALL? Do you honestly 'think' that mearly 'changing the name' of the 'tree' in question would change the validity of this passage? Of course NOT. So, here we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of exactly HOW the CC has ignored scripture for the sake of 'their OWN understanding' and how this has been perpetuated into our modern culture.

Are you aware of the 'meaning' of vanity? Or the REASON that vanity is NOT a 'good thing'? For ONE reason and one reason alone. We are to follow the will of God RATHER than our own. For our will is carnal in nature and is CONTRADICTORY to that of God. He has laid out the 'righteous' ways that we are to behave in order to learn of love. WE, on the other hand, would IGNORE that which pertains to 'true love' in order to appease our carnal nature that is LOVE OF SELF.

The CC has offered much to show that their love was NOT 'true love', but a love for themselves and what THEY CHOSE to worship REGARDLESS of the 'truth'. And much of their teachings were carried right on over to, what you refer to as, the Protestant Faith. This is NOT 'where' the 'truth' lies, but where 'man-made' doctrine prevails that is CONTRARY to The Word of God as offered by Christ and His apostles.

MEC

 

[D46]

It would be sad to enter the presence of Christ and find out that Catholicism IS the true religion and being asked "So why didn't you pursue the claims made by the Catholic Church? No one else makes such claims to be my Church... Why didn't you search to see whether they were true or not?" I think most people don't do an honest study of whether they are indeed the Church of Christ.

There's no fear of that, francis. Some things are as plain as the nose on your face. You, choose not to believe anything posted here about the Catholic church but continually have a rebuttal to know historical facts. There's always an answer, howbeit, a wrong conclusion to documented evidence of the history of the RCC. Not to mention the pagan rites you guys go through and the worship of dead folks, the eucharist, bowing before a monstrance laden with a man made cookie(eucharist adoration) and "Mother Mary" whom some call the Queen of Heaven. I think someone needs to do a bit of reading in the Old Testament about this "Queen of Heaven". Try the book of Jeremiah for starters.

Jeremiah 7:18-19 (KJV) The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 44:17 (KJV) But we will certainly do whatsoever thing that go forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

There's an entity called the queen of heaven but, it certainly isn't the Mary of the bible...it's a demonic spirit just as these apparitions of Mary are. Think about it , francis. There is NO Catholic doctrine as defined in the Catachism, dogma's, bulls or any other document that is so contrary to the Word of God. Where did the brown scapular come from? Nothing in the bible about this. What about those rosary beads? Peter the Hermit? Pure pagan in origin and that's easily found out. Repititious prays...God hates that!

Matthew 6:7 (KJV) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

No, francis-no danger of discovering that the Catholic Church was the true religion but has it's forerunners via the Pharisees who liked to don fancy, religious looking costumes just like your pope, cardinals, bishops, etc. Outward appearances don't cut it with God-He looks onothe inside and the inside of Catholicism is as dead mens bones.

I know you'll have an answer to all this. I have no doubt about that. Despite all the evidence Solo has so laborously put out these past few weeks.But, as the Scriptures say...

Matthew 24:11 (KJV) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Ephesians 5:6-7 (KJV) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[D46]

The Fifteen Promises of the Rosary

Our Lady made these promises to Christians who faithfully pray the Rosary:

1. To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.

It sounds great, but what is the "special protection" and what are the "great graces." Talk is cheap, you've got to tell us more than that. And what's with the "my Rosary" deal? If the rosary belongs to Mary, where does God fit into the picture? I triple dog dare you to watch any Catholic worship service and you'll see Mary exalted to the heavens, but what does the Bible say concerning this heathen practice? The Bible declares...

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" -Philippians 2:9,10

Listen to any Roman Catholic worship service and all you will hear is Mary, Mary, Mary! The Bible teaches that ONLY the name of Jesus Christ should be exalted, for there is NO salvation in any other name...

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -Acts 4:12

2. Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible teaching such foolishness. God never instructs us to recite anything; on the contrary, God condemns such practices...

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do..." -Matthew 6:7

Ever hear nuns chanting...

Mary, Queen of Heaven...we pray to thee

Mary, Queen of all saints...we pray to thee

Mary, Queen of angels...we pray to thee

Mary, Queen of the holy rosary...we pray to thee

And so on...

3. The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.

What a bunch of lies! Do you really believe that counting 59 beads and a cross on a rosary is going to accomplish anything other than wasting your time? Jesus never taught any such nonsense. The Bible never teaches us to count beads or pray a rosary. In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus taught us how to pray...

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Jesus said, "After this manner therefore pray ye..." Jesus didn't tell us exactly what to pray, but He taught us in what "manner" to pray. I don't see anything about a hail Mary in there. God wants us to adore Him, to worship His good and perfect name. God wants us to seek the kingdom of God first (Matthew 6:33), and God's will in our life. God wants us to be repentant, humble, and forgiving of others. God wants us to pray to avoid temptation (to walk in the Spirit). God wants us to brag on Him and boast about His greatness and power. If you boil this prayer all down into simplest form, you basically have 2 things:

God is everything, and we desperately need God.

Roman Catholics foolishly and sinfully ADD Mary to the list. God will NOT accept any worship that includes Mary or anyone else.

Also, praying the rosary can't dispel heresy because it is heresy itself. The Bible teaches that heresy is exposed by shining the light of God's Word upon the darkness (Psalm 119:105). The Bible is a "lamp" unto our feet to light the path. God's Holy Spirit is our guide to "guide us into all truth" (John 16:13). If a doctrine doesn't fit within the parameters of the Bible, then it is heresy! If you don't like this, then it is only because you do NOT believe the Bible. Praying the rosary will do nothing but waste your time and upset God.

4. The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

I dare you to show me any of the above claims from the Bible. The Bible teaches in John 17:17, " Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." It is the Word of God that sanctifies us (sets us apart "from" the world and "to" God). Catholicism elevates the rosary above the Word of God. The rosary cannot sanctify you. How can you be sanctified by repeating a bunch of vain repetitions? The term "hail Mary" is NOT even mentioned once in the Bible! Not once! Think about it.

5. Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.

This is one of the most blasphemous statements I've read. The Catholic religion teaches that those who trust MARY through the ROSARY will not perish. The Bible proclaims...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." -John 3:16

This is but a few examples-also...

The Fifteen Promises of Mary to Christians Who Recite the Rosary

I. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
II. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
III. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
IV. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
V. The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
VI. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
VII. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
VIII. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
IX. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
X. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
XI. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
XII. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
XIII. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
XIV. All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.
XV. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan) Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes DD Archbishop of New York)

This is straight from hell!!

 

[D46]

Something to ponder from the Scriptures...

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

THE BEAST THAT WAS...

tThe Roman Church began in 538 AD "officially" as a church and state and continued until Napoleon sent in General Berthier to sack it in 1798.(Wounded to death). PIUS VI was dethroned.

and is NOT...

From 1798 until the signing of the Laterin Treaty in 1929, the Roman church/state was not existing.

Yet IS

From 1929 until the present time The Catholic Church has been a church and state. Mussolini signed a concordat with Pius XII that all of Italy shall be Catholic only. (the wound healed)

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This predicted a limited reign of the papacy, which would be inflicted with a deadly wound, almost to death, after a period of 42 months of rule. This 42 months of prophetic time can be shown from scripture to be an actual period of 1260 years. I believe this pretty much tells who the Roman church is.

The "little horn" in Daniel is the Roman Catholic church (the Papacy), that changed the day of rest, tampered with the Ten Commandments and persecuted the saints for 1260 years.

http://www.biblelight.net/h-wound.htm

http://www.biblelight.net/wound.htm

http://www.biblelight.net/dragon.htm

 

[francisdesales]

D,

Thank you for your offering of documented PROOF of what we have been discussing for so long. Fran is of the opinion that we would rather 'make up' history than actually study it.

Fran,

As I have stated on numerous occasions, I DO NOT hold the sins of the CC against YOU or ANY individual. But that they actually happened is 'FACT not some 'made up' illusion of mine or anyone elses. It is the CC itself that would fabricate it's behavior in the past and make excuses of how it was NOT their doing but 'someone elses'. That in itself goes to show just how 'repentant' they are towards their misdeeds of the past.

Imagican, perhaps you should read my reply to D46 on this matter, especially the clips from the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, writing about the martrydom of Polycarp. Notice that the Catholic Church DID exist and that the word "Christian" and "Catholic" are used interchangeably. Thus, the idea that the Catholic Church began only with Constantine is ludicrous. The Church lists dozens of bishops of Rome - Popes - who preceded Constantine. ALL of them were MARTYRED by Rome! THAT, brother, you can take to the bank and cash it. You can read all about it at:


http://www.ccel.org/ - A CALVINIST SITE!

Or,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ - run by a non-Catholic Christian. I like this site because it also has Gnostic and Apocrypha, beside the writings of the orthodox Catholics.

Either way, read them for yourself. Before becoming Catholic, I read BOTH sides of the story, and I found that the history presented by D46 was absolutely ridiculous and very easily shown to be false. D46's info is woefully inaccurate, I am sorry to say. If his source can't get the fact that the Catholic Church pre-existed Constantine, the rest of the history is chucked out the window. This is an unacceptable mistake that ANY unbiased PROTESTANT historian of the Church will attest to.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Something to ponder from the Scriptures...

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Your source is now twisting the Word of God! The Book of Revelation was written around 90 AD, and this "source" (for lack of a better word) now tries to refer "the beast that was" and the "beast that is" to the Catholic Church - and then goes on to say that the Catholic Church came about in the 500's!!! :P :P :P

DID IT EXIST IN 90 AD OR NOT??? :o

If you are going to put out phony data for someone, you could at least get your story straight! Either the Church WAS or WAS NOT when Revelation was written. Can't have it both ways...

It is amazing that there are gullible people out there who can't figure out these things for themselves and in their hatred, throw COMMON SENSE to the winds...

 

[D46]

I think you're the one that needs to re-read and get your stories straight. Twisting scripture is not an uncommon phenomenon of the RCC, of course...nor is denying facts out of the ordinary. Revelation, like Daniel and Ezekial were prophetic books speaking of the FUTURE. I believe 90 AD was a little before 538 AD. Go back and read again.What would be the significance of John talking about past events? Sort of like yesterdays paper. :roll: You weren't as smart as you thought, now were you.

 

[francisdesales]

I think you're the one that needs to re-read and get your stories straight. Twisting scripture is not an uncommon phenomenon of the RCC, of course...nor is denying facts out of the ordinary. Revelation, like Daniel and Ezekial were prophetic books speaking of the FUTURE. I believe 90 AD was a little before 538 AD. Go back and read again.What would be the significance of John talking about past events? Sort of like yesterdays paper. :roll: You weren't as smart as you thought, now were you.

D46, perhaps we should re-establish whether the Catholic Church pre-dated Constantine or not. Here is some of my evidence that I previously posted. Perhaps you missed it. The following was written TWO HUNDRED YEARS before the Edict of Milan...

"The Church of God which sojourns at Smyrna, to the Church of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to all the congregations of the Holy and Catholic Church in every place:Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied."

Opening statement, St. Ignatius of Antioch, the epistle of the Church at Smyrna concerning the martyrdom of the Holy Polycarp, c. 110 AD


And who was Polycarp?

I have clipped a relatively large portion of Polycarp's martyrdom, so you can see his religious "affiliation" and how the Catholic Church was NOT part of the Roman Empire and that it DID exist, coming from Christ's Apostles...


"CHAP. VIII.--POLYCARP IS BROUGHT INTO THE CITY.

Now, as soon as he had ceased praying, having made mention of all that had at any time come in contact with him, both small and great, illustrious and obscure, as well as the whole Catholic Church throughout the world, the time of his departure having arrived, they set him upon an ass, and conducted him into the city, the day being that of the great Sabbath. And the Irenarch Herod, accompanied by his father Nicetes (both riding in a chariot), met him, and taking him up into the chariot, they seated themselves beside him, and endeavoured to persuade him, saying, "What harm is there in saying, Lord Caesar, and in sacrificing, with the other ceremonies observed on such occasions, and so make sure of safety?" But he at first gave them no answer; and when they continued to urge him, he said, "I shall not do as you advise me." So they, having no hope of persuading him, began to speak bitter words unto him, and cast him with violence out of the chariot, insomuch that, in getting down from the carriage, he dislocated his leg [by the fall]. But without being disturbed, and as if suffering nothing, he went eagerly forward with all haste, and was conducted to the stadium, where the tumult was so great, that there was no possibility of being heard.

CHAP. IX.--POLYCARP REFUSES TO REVILE CHRIST.

Now, as Polycarp was entering into the stadium, there came to him a voice from heaven, saying, "Be strong, and show thyself a man, O Polycarp !" No one saw who it was that spoke to him; but those of our brethren who were present heard the voice. And as he was brought forward, the tumult became great when they heard that Polycarp was taken. And when he came near, the proconsul asked him whether he was Polycarp. On his confessing that he was, [the proconsul] sought to persuade him to deny [Christ], saying, "Have respect to thy old age," and other similar things, according to their custom, [such as]," Swear by the fortune of Caesar; repent, and say, Away with the Atheists." But Polycarp, gazing with a stern countenance on all the multitude of the wicked heathen then in the stadium, and waving his hand towards them, while with groans he looked up to heaven, said, "Away with the Atheists." Then, the proconsul urging him, and saying, "Swear, and I will set thee at liberty, reproach Christ;" Polycarp declared, "Eighty and six years have I served Him, and He never did me any injury: how then can I blaspheme my King and my Saviour?"

CHAP. X.--POLYCARP CONFESSES HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN.

And when the proconsul yet again pressed him, and said, "Swear by the fortune of Caesar," he answered, "Since thou art vainly urgent that, as thou sayest, I should swear by the fortune of Caesar, and pretendest not to know who and what I am, hear me declare with boldness, I am a Christian. And if you wish to learn what the doctrines of Christianity are, appoint me a day, and thou shalt hear them." The proconsul replied, "Persuade the people." But Polycarp said, "To thee I have thought it right to offer an account [of my faith]; for we are taught to give all due honour (which entails no injury upon ourselves) to the powers and authorities which are ordained of God. But as for these, I do not deem them worthy of receiving any account from me."

Chapter 8-10, EPISTLE OF THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA CONCERNING THE MARTYRDOM OF THE HOLY POLYCARP by St. Ignatius of Antioch, c. 110 AD.


Here is another example...

"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

Chapter 8, St. Ignatius of Antioch, the epistle to Smyrnaeans, c. 110 AD


The Catholic Church has been in existence for 2000 years, long before Catholicism became a legal religion after the Edict of Milan. This is fact. You can examine the actual documents themselves, not someone else's opinion or reconstruction of history, which is what your site does. They are not primary sources, unlike my posts. Mine show the facts. Yours do not. This has nothing to do with how smart I am... Anyone who can read should be able to examine and determine whether the Church pre-existed Constantine.

Regards

 

[radorth]

THE INQUISITION: A Study in Absolute Catholic Power by Arthur Maricle

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." {Revelation 17:6}

Those who classify themselves as Christians can be divided into 2 broad groups: those who have chosen to allow the Bible to be their final authority and those who have chosen to allow men to be their final authority. l

So true. And the very leaders some would venerate will pay a dear price I suppose. And yet their very ignorance of the average crusader excuses them from blame. Violence in the church is directly proportional to knowlege of who Jesus was, and it cannot be said the crusaders had a clue. There wer no bibles to read anywhere really. As I recall, Luther (a man of many faults, yes) did not even read a NT until he was a doctor of theology!!!

My belabored point is that ignorant people cannot be held accountable, and we should be careful not to judge them too harshly. This is the great mistake of skeptics- to harshly judge the ignorant and try to lump us all together. We should not accept any guilt whatever for the doings of the ignorant, but we should be careful not to heap any guilt on them either.

Rad

 

[francisdesales]

My belabored point is that ignorant people cannot be held accountable, and we should be careful not to judge them too harshly. This is the great mistake of skeptics- to harshly judge the ignorant and try to lump us all together. We should not accept any guilt whatever for the doings of the ignorant, but we should be careful not to heap any guilt on them either.

Rad

Well said, radorth. I believe it is a mistake to accuse an organization of a sin committed by a few of its members. Just because some Protestants, in their zeal, burnt witches, doesn't mean all Protestants were bloodthirsty - any more than a few zealous Inquisitors reflects poorly on the entire Catholic Church.

Where would Christianity be if we focused on the Judas Iscariot's of our community, rather than the power of Christ working through those who take God's Word seriously?

Regards

 

[D46]

I'm at work and cannot spend a lot of time. The Roman Church was not...read my lips...NOT successors of the Apostles. The Roman Emperors were given the title of Pontifex Maximus, just like the popes were given. These are your predecessors...not Peter or Paul. Pagan Rome was around before Christ as it was during his eartlhy reign and they were just as bloody as the church that came after them, the RCC. Historical evidence documents well the nature lf the RCC when in power to steal lands either by forged documents or by brute force taking away from those they considered heretics so they could gain wealth and more land. Anyone with an IQ over 50 should be able to see through this church and what she stands for which was certainly not the church that Christ instituted, though the claim for it abounds.Popes Urban, Innocent and Gregory were among the most blood thirsty in history. How anyone could believe a church was founded on these guys are a mystery to me.

BTW you're "evidence" of the RCC pre-dating Constantine doesn't hold water as it's Catholic biased and we all know how they have a tendency to re-write history and/or attempt to cover it up and make up their own rules, guidelines, bulls, doctrines, etc. So, that's all wet. I'd no more believe that than I would the Divine Comedy.

 

[francisdesales]

BTW you're "evidence" of the RCC pre-dating Constantine doesn't hold water as it's Catholic biased and we all know how they have a tendency to re-write history and/or attempt to cover it up and make up their own rules, guidelines, bulls, doctrines, etc. So, that's all wet. I'd no more believe that than I would the Divine Comedy.

This statement is enough to show that some people refuse to believe what is in front of their very eyes. I gave you primary evidence. Actual writings. Examine them yourself. I didn't give you 'catholic' spin. Those are HISTORICAL writings. What more do you want?

I will have to ask respectfully to exit this conversation, as I see your mind is already made up on this issue. Nothing I can type will convince you otherwise, so I leave you in your hatred.

Take care

 

[Solo]

D46,
I have not seen anything close to hatred in your posts to francisdesales; however, I he also accuses me of hatred. The only thing that I hate is the lies and deceptions of the Roman Catholic institution leading millions upon millions of people to hell with their false teachings.
Michael

 

[francisdesales]

D46,
I have not seen anything close to hatred in your posts to francisdesales; however, I he also accuses me of hatred. The only thing that I hate is the lies and deceptions of the Roman Catholic institution leading millions upon millions of people to hell with their false teachings.
Michael

Michael,

There you go again. It is one thing to disagree with me, especially if you have some Scriptural warrant. It is another thing to condemn millions of people to hell because they disagree with you.

If I recall, you believe that NOTHING can be added to the work of Christ - and nothing can be TAKEN AWAY from the work of Christ. Yet, YOU TAKE AWAY the salvation offered and given to millions of Catholics!!!

You preach one thing, Michael, then you add something that is nowhere found in the Bible -

That ALL believers of Jesus Christ who are Catholics are condemned to hell. I have never seen such a statement anywhere in Scriptures. If a Catholic professes his belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, and is showing good fruits to boot, who are you to usurp God's position?


"In very deed I perceive, that God is not a respecter of persons. But in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh justice, is acceptable to him." Acts 10:34-35

NOTHING about a person being Catholic as an exception...

And you wonder why I accuse you of hatred. You preach love but your bias against other Christians (some who are not Catholics) bears out your true fruits.

I hope you consider changing your attitude. Disagree with Catholics. But stop this spewing of hatred, at least for the sake of your own soul. I do this in the spirit of brotherly correction. I sincerely doubt that Christ had this in mind during His teachings to the Apostles.

Regards

 

[Solo]

There is unity in the Christian fellowship. This fellowship is in the Spirit and in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, for where there are two or more gathered in His name, he is there in their midst. The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ, but he is not; for he is not needed. When we worship God, it is in the spirit, not in the flesh. We see with spiritual eyes, not eyes of flesh.

I will continue to post the differences between the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Biblical Christianity. You have said yourself that there is no higher authority than the Bible so it's authority ought to suffice when showing the false teachings of the Roman Catholic institution.

If I hated Roman Catholics, I would not waste my time giving the warnings of hellfire coming their way due to the false teachings of the RCC. I would walk off and say, "Whatever, they will find out soon enough." That is hate. Love is spending the time researching and teaching the truth of the scriptures, so that they can come out of the bondage to the pagan institution of the RCC.

PS. It is a RCC ploy to suggest hate on those who preach the truth against the lies of the RCC, and it is taught for the purpose of twisting the discussion to a personal debate and away from the issue of false teachings.

 

[radorth]

D46,
I have not seen anything close to hatred in your posts to francisdesales; however, I he also accuses me of hatred. The only thing that I hate is the lies and deceptions of the Roman Catholic institution leading millions upon millions of people to hell with their false teachings.
Michael

I guess I have a hard time believing falsely taugt people go to hell, who otherwise might have been saved. Call me a closet Calvinist :-D

Now the leaders who made conscious decisions to mix pagan ideas with nascent Christianity, that's another story.

 

[Solo]

I guess I have a hard time believing falsely taugt people go to hell, who otherwise might have been saved. Call me a closet Calvinist :-D

Now the leaders who made conscious decisions to mix pagan ideas with nascent Christianity, that's another story.

Those falsely taught have a hard time believing the truth that Jesus teaches. All are condemned according to Jesus in John 3 except for those born again. Being born again means much more than being baptized in an organization as an infant.

Read John 3 and expound on what Jesus is teaching about being born again.

 

[francisdesales]

There is unity in the Christian fellowship. This fellowship is in the Spirit and in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ, for where there are two or more gathered in His name, he is there in their midst. The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ, but he is not; for he is not needed. When we worship God, it is in the spirit, not in the flesh. We see with spiritual eyes, not eyes of flesh.

"There is unity in Christian fellowship - but now we don't need the Pope..." Make up your mind.

Worshiping God in Spirit and Truth does NOT nullify rituals. Jesus Christ told us "do this (Eucharist) in memory of me". Now, if all worship was based on some exoteric and abstract idea of God, why does Jesus accomodate man by giving Him rituals to perform? The purpose of rituals are to bring the body and mind together in worship, since we ARE body and mind (despite your apparent condemnation of our bodies).

I will continue to post the differences between the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and Biblical Christianity. You have said yourself that there is no higher authority than the Bible so it's authority ought to suffice when showing the false teachings of the Roman Catholic institution.

But I see you don't post where the Catholic Church shares commonality with "Biblical Christianity", even by YOUR definition of what that means. Thus, you are purposely being divisive. Ecumenicism does not mean we throw away our different beliefs. However, Jesus teaches that we are to be as one, so we should make the effort to accentaute our similiarities. Our greater enemy is the culture we live in, not each other.

If I hated Roman Catholics, I would not waste my time giving the warnings of hellfire coming their way due to the false teachings of the RCC. I would walk off and say, "Whatever, they will find out soon enough." That is hate. Love is spending the time researching and teaching the truth of the scriptures, so that they can come out of the bondage to the pagan institution of the RCC.

Sorry, Michael, that argument doesn't hold water. A person who is truly looking after another's welfare spiritually doesn't come across so arrogantly, totally ignoring arguments that show one is wrong on different subjects. A person who loves is open to the truth, wherever he finds it. It is quite obvious that you believe that the Catholic Church has absolutely no truth in it whatsoever - and even willfully lies to people within it. I myself have read these skrees you have posted in the past before I became Catholic and I feel I was unbiased enough when examining the possibility of the truths of those articles. I was able to refute them all eventually. Thus, I don't buy into the lies you have been posting regarding Catholic history - such as "the Catholic Church didn't exist before Constantine". I think I have refuted that with PRIMARY evidence - writing of people who were THERE. Thus, in my opinion, based on the evidence that historians have available, I have come to believe that your sources are faulty.

I appreciate your zeal for your beliefs, but you have not convinced me that your version of the gospel is correct. In my reading of the Church Fathers and the saints, I have found that humility is the most common trait that true Christians possess. In their desire to become like Christ, they die to themselves. I am truly sorry, but I don't think your posts display this humility. Thus, I doubt your teachings are from the Spirit. Now, if you were a more humble Protestant, I would take you more seriously. But when I see you constantly belittling people who disagree with you, even non-Catholics, I fear your teachings are based more on your own pride in your personal interpretion rather than the Spirit moving you.

Sorry - I am not trying to offend you. Perhaps you can ask other Protestants who do not necessarily agree with you and ask them. It is one thing to disagree, but another to be condeming others to hell. That is reserved for God alone, not you.

 

[Solo]

One does not open oneself up to the lies of the father of lies, but instead holds fast to the truth of God's Word; thereby warning others of their false belief system that is entrenched at controlling millions and millions of innocent people.

The body of Christ is not a physical, socio-political institution created by man that harbors false religions teachings that align with paganistic ritualism. The body of Christ is those born again by the Spirit of God for the purpose of operating within the gifts given of the Spirit to serve God, about his business until Jesus returns.

There is no Christian unity between believers and the Roman Catholic institution because the Roman Catholic institution teaches that anyone outside of the Roman Catholic institution is cursed to hell.

Jesus did not say to implement another sacrifice like the Eucharist to pay the penalty of sin. Jesus said that he would be sacrificed for the offering for all sin, and the word confirms in Hebrews that this sacrifice was done one time for all sins. Jesus said, "It is finished" on the cross. The payment was made.

The natural man is the corrupt flesh condemned to damnation, and until the natural man is born again, he is lost. Once the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit of man, a New Creature is born, the inward man, and when the corrupt, mortal flesh is changed at the coming of Jesus Christ, the New Creature inward man will join with the New incorrupt, immortal body and will be with Jesus for eternity.

Ecumenicism is a ploy to have all join the Roman Catholic institution, not a loving hand holding affair of like-minded believers. The Scriptures say not to be unequally yoked, and to be yoked with an institution that has murdered believers, and teaches paganism to its membership, and disagrees with Biblical teachings is in direct conflict with the truth of God's Word.

You would have to read Jesus' teachings as arrogant as well, for he teaches against the lies of the Roman Catholic institution as well. The Roman Catholic institution does not teach Biblical salvation, justification, glorification; not even close. Purgatory does not exist. The concept that the Roman Catholics have of the trinity is false.

You became a Roman Catholic over becoming a child of God, for your beliefs are accented with lies of the devil himself, and I am warning you that your perspective is false.

I cannot condemn you to hell, you are condemned to hell already until you become born again. Twice I have asked you to describe your understanding on being born again, and you have yet to do so. I suspect that it is because you recognize the differences between the Roman Catholic teachings of being born again, and the Biblical teachings of being born again. I suspect that you became a Roman Catholic because of marriage, family, or friendship. I doubt that it had anything to do as you sought out the truth of the things of God.

I stand on the scriptures with conviction not opinion. The Prophets of God were considered arrogant and wrong and were murdered by the children of satan. The Apostles of God were considered arrogant and wrong and were murdered by the children of satan. The believers of Jesus Christ were considered arrogant, and wrong, and were murdered by the children of satan during the inquisition, during the reformation, after the reformation, and today. The believers of Jesus Christ will continue to be considered arrogant, and wrong, and will be murdered by the children of satan until the return of Jesus Christ.

 

[radorth]

Those falsely taught have a hard time believing the truth that Jesus teaches. All are condemned according to Jesus in John 3 except for those born again. Being born again means much more than being baptized in an organization as an infant.

Read John 3 and expound on what Jesus is teaching about being born again.

I may be missing something but he doesn't say you are condemned there. He says "unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God." It is notable that he does NOT say "you will never see the kingdom of God." Over the years I have come to realize that "you will burn in hell if you aren't born again" is not really what Jesus teaches. We Protestants make up stuff too I think, or are prone to accept the teachngs of our church too readily.

I don't deny false teaching can lead to people dying without being born again. I simply question whether Jesus is saying "all misled people are lost- tough luck." I think ignorance may be an excuse, and I think the cross means God can justly save anyone who is willing. That is the wonder of the cross and of imputed righteousness. It frees God to save one and all should he so choose, whether they have jumped through all the hoops our theology requires or not. 'Tis a dangerous thing to assert what God will and will not do.

I now lean towards Lewis' (admittedly unusual but not unscriptural) belief that people go to hell because they really hate heaven more than they hate hell. They can't or won't serve God even after they know the truth. Those who can possibly be redeemed will be, once they hear the whole truth and repent.

Rad