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The Kingdom Of Heaven

eddif said:
The kingdom of Heaven within us (internal / Pentecost).

The kingdom of God manifested in lives of people (external).
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Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
dirtfarmer here

Matthew 24:13-14, " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then the end shall come." What is the end that "endure unto the end" referring to? Do the believers in the death, burial, and resurrection have to endure until the end to be saved or have we received salvation already?

Ephesians 2:19, " Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God."

Philippians 3:20, " For our conversation(citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for our savior , the Lord Jesus Christ." Where is the "enduring until the end" in these scriptures? For the believer today there is no enduring until the end as there is with the gospel of the kingdom.
 
This isn't info for the Kingdom of God verses the Kingdom of Heaven, but I've wondered about the blessings and promises in the gospels and in Revelation. Specifically the blessings in the beatitudes in Mathew 5 and the rewards, given to the churches in the first chapters of Revelations.

In the beatitudes, those poor in the spirit and those perscuted are promised that theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (In a similar sermon in Luke those who are poor, and those perscuted are given this promise for the Kingdom of God). But then you have the meek who will inherit the earth, potentially a different responsibility or a different kingdom then the Kingdom of Heaven. For instance some old Testiment prophies tell of people of all nations traveling to Israel to learn from, or to see the King. And at least one prophesy gives a good blessing to Egypt and another nation. Blessing those two along with Isreal. Perhaps it's the gentile nations that are given to the meek, and Isreal is still God's special treasure. Or perhaps inheriting the earth means something different. Peace makers are promised to be called children of God, while those pure in Heart are promised to see God.

Though all these attributes are aspects we should strive for, the question can you recieve some of these blessings and not others? Can a person be in the Kingdom of Heaven but not be a child of God, or not have the privilege to see God?

Revelations 2-3 gives promises at the end of each address to a church. In the King James Version the promises are given to those that overcome, and simularily in the NIV translation the promises are to those that are victorious. Potentially promises that every Christian will inherit being victorious in our faith; or each promise us given only to the trials mentioned in each church's critism. For Ephesians the victorious could be those that fell away from their love for God, and returned. Promised to have the right to eat from the tree of Life. Pergamum on the other hand was critized for holding to the teaching of Nicolaitans. Perhaps those who overcome false doctrine and enticing sins are given the reward to eat the Mana from Heaven and be given a stone with a new name on it for their new name. Or perhaps both promises to Ephesian and Peramum churchesare meant for all who are victorious in Jesus and are sanctified by Him.

I'm sorry for the tangent. It's just the question of if the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God being the same, bring to mind similar thoughts of promises and blessings given might not be universally given to each person saved in Jesus.
 
reba said:
Your opinion is as valid as mine... :) to me when i read the scriptures they show me the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are the same kingdom.. KofG and KofH have been are being used in attempts to divide God's people..

Are these different... Holy Ghost ? Holy Spirit ?
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How about the KofG and KofH being used to unite God's people..

Romans 14:3 KJV
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

We are on the edge of one huge discussion of the slaves being free and the freeman being a slave to Christ. This discussion really hinges on the discussion going on right now. Of course I have forty years invested in one or two paragraph statements.

As an administrator you can see storms brewing that others can not. Romans 14:3 says there are differences, but suggests not insisting on a way. The differences are mentioned however (in some detail). The details just slip by the multitude though.

Redneck
eddif
 
Free said:
Kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.
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An ox and a bishop mean the same thing too. LOL

It just takes twelve posts to describe the differences and similarities. If folks are going to be rolling in the isles fighting, I will shut up.


eddif
 
Nathan said:
Jesus might not have been physically seen by all men(come to all), but He did come for all. Jesus specifically told the disciples to 'teach all He commanded'.
I think the example with the young ruler is a simple example of no one being good enough to enter the kingdom. Jesus was leading that man to understand he could not 'do' anything to receive entrance.
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Morning Nathan, agreed, but with those things hid from ages and from generations of Col 1:26 Jesus sent Paul to dispel, and make clear those apostles continued preaching an earthly kingdom message which will go forth during a future last week of Daniel as it were.
Example: do you think there may have been cause to wonder why those Jesus taught to go forth did so with the idea of having near a duplicate of the millennial kingdom with all things in common during the seven years after Jesus’ death? (Daniel’s seventieth week?).
Nathan said:
The problem I have with two different Gospels is Paul talks about them as the same, or at least does not attempt to make a distinction.
Acts 19:8 (ESV) 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Acts 20:17-35, I would post it all, but I would rather encourage you to read it all in context. Paul makes no distinction again, and does mention the kingdom.
I think the below is the most telling account we have of there being zero difference between that which is preached to Jews and that which is preached to Gentiles. All being the same Gospel of Gods kingdom.
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I might add this thought to that thinking, and that is the fact Paul too went to the Jews first.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Israel didn’t hear it? of course not. they were looking for power exhibited toward and for them at that time such as will be during the millennium with them as head of the nations, and though Jesus had been given all power and authority in heaven and in earth according to Mat 28:18, He had not taken that power yet.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. Until that time Jesus sits in His Father’s throne; not His own as we will see in the Lord’s Day (Rev 4:2),

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Nathan, do you read anywhere where Paul said the Gentiles must sell all they have and give to the poor? No, Jesus made clear to Israel just how short their own righteousness was taking them. Jesus told all through the personal revelation He gave Paul in Gal 1:11-12, But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ., and yet we don’t read near the same message of grace given to the Jews that Jesus gave Paul. :shrug
 
eddif said:
Looks like we wil have to have a private or by invitation discussion.

eddif
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If it's open to invitation, I hope you could include me in it too. The question of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is one I've wondered about too. If not that's ok too. Some conversations are easier with only small groups or one on one talks.
 
Eugene said:
Morning Nathan, agreed, but with those things hid from ages and from generations of Col 1:26 Jesus sent Paul to dispel, and make clear those apostles continued preaching an earthly kingdom message which will go forth during a future last week of Daniel as it were.
Example: do you think there may have been cause to wonder why those Jesus taught to go forth did so with the idea of having near a duplicate of the millennial kingdom with all things in common during the seven years after Jesus’ death? (Daniel’s seventieth week?).

I might add this thought to that thinking, and that is the fact Paul too went to the Jews first.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. (Israel didn’t hear it? of course not. they were looking for power exhibited toward and for them at that time such as will be during the millennium with them as head of the nations, and though Jesus had been given all power and authority in heaven and in earth according to Mat 28:18, He had not taken that power yet.

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. Until that time Jesus sits in His Father’s throne; not His own as we will see in the Lord’s Day (Rev 4:2),

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Nathan, do you read anywhere where Paul said the Gentiles must sell all they have and give to the poor? No, Jesus made clear to Israel just how short their own righteousness was taking them. Jesus told all through the personal revelation He gave Paul in Gal 1:11-12, But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ., and yet we don’t read near the same message of grace given to the Jews that Jesus gave Paul. :shrug
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Lots of info there. I don't see where there was a distinction made? If there were two different messages preached, then we would see a specific time where they were flipped one to the other. Even you point out that Paul also preached to the Jews.

Do you believe the apostles were preaching about a kingdom on earth after Jesus left?

I don't think we can build an entire belief on just one passage where Jesus talked with a rich young ruler.
 
Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Mar 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

 
reba said:
isn't comparing scripture to scripture what we should do?
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I would think so because there is lots of room for correction in righteousness to even search the scriptures, wright? II Timothy 3:16, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
 
Nathan said:
Lots of info there. I don't see where there was a distinction made? If there were two different messages preached, then we would see a specific time where they were flipped one to the other. Even you point out that Paul also preached to the Jews.

Do you believe the apostles were preaching about a kingdom on earth after Jesus left?

I don't think we can build an entire belief on just one passage where Jesus talked with a rich young ruler.
Click to expand...
All the gospel is the gospel of God, but be assured that the hidden gospel Paul was given grace to present to the Gentiles was what we’re going to be judged by. In Rom 2:16 Paul refers to it as his gospel; that sounds distinct to me. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Should we instead seek to follow after Peter or the other apostles? No. 1 Cor 11:1 tells us, Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

You ask if the apostles still preached a kingdom on earth after Jesus left. What do you think Peter may have been thinking in Gal 2:11-12 by withdrawing himself from the Gentiles?

I’ll leave off here because God receives us both regardless if we eat, or don’t eat. Thanks
 
I don't see any difference between Peters preaching and Paul's. None. Zero. I see that Peter acted wrongly and Paul talked with him about it. Peter, the rest of the Apostles, and Paul all taught the same message.

Which, in fact, was the message Moses and the Prophets wrote about. The Gospel is only hid from the ones who close their ears, not from those who will listen.

I think a lot of confusion comes from people thinking Paul was given some message that had never been heard. In fact, the words used to describe his 'revelation' only mean he was given the supernatural ability to understand what Moses and the Prophets wrote - and to clearly be able to teach it.

I follow Jesus, and I learn about following Him by Peter and Paul's example. It is my Gospel and it is your Gospel. We all should take responsibility for it, teach, and preach it.
 
reba said:
Heb_13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
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The same humble man yesterday, today, and for ever. The same Jesus who welcomes those those who overcome to sit with him on his throne. That is very nice of him, very humble King, he does not want to exalt himself above anyone else or wants to rule over anyone like the Kingdom of man, but wants to dwell with his people as equals and friends, and will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
 
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Nathan said:
I don't see any difference between Peters preaching and Paul's. None. Zero. I see that Peter acted wrongly and Paul talked with him about it. Peter, the rest of the Apostles, and Paul all taught the same message.

Which, in fact, was the message Moses and the Prophets wrote about. The Gospel is only hid from the ones who close their ears, not from those who will listen.

I think a lot of confusion comes from people thinking Paul was given some message that had never been heard. In fact, the words used to describe his 'revelation' only mean he was given the supernatural ability to understand what Moses and the Prophets wrote - and to clearly be able to teach it.

I follow Jesus, and I learn about following Him by Peter and Paul's example. It is my Gospel and it is your Gospel. We all should take responsibility for it, teach, and preach it.
Click to expand...

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

You don't see a difference in that Peter preached the cross as a murder indictment: Acts 1:23 last phrase, " ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
Paul preached we should glory in the cross.
Peter did not preach redemption by the grace of God on the day of Pentecost but the message that John the Baptist preached: Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Paul preached redemption by faith in the blood that was shed on the cross of Calvary. Neither did Peter preach salvation unconditionally.
Peter preached, repent and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Paul preached atonement is immediately.

These are just some of the differences in what Peter preached after Pentecost and what Paul preached after the Damascus road conversion.
 
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