The Kingdom or Angelic Conflict

[gr8grace]

When did Satan Fall? Satan is already fallen in our first telling of Him in Genesis in the Garden.

All of us at some point in time have asked the question,"Why am I here?","What is my purpose here?", "what is the meaning of life?"

We have all the Christian cliches, " God is Love,He wanted someone to love.","He was lonely.","God wanted friends.","God wanted fellowship."

This is why we are here....To resolve the prehistoric Angelic conflict, the invisible war that surrounds us. To prove to Satan and the fallen Angels that God is Just and righteous and most important, that God is willing to give Grace and Mercy to all that will accept it. Satan called God unfair in His treatment and judgement of His Creatures.We are here on this planet to reveal to Satan that God is fair and Just. And His Judgment is Just to creatures that willingly reject his Grace and Mercy.

Satan still appeals and is in his defendant role in the courtroom to this day. See Job 1:6-8.

Job is a witness to satan, Jobs purpose in his life.

Eph 3:9-11~~9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities(Satan and the Fallen angels) in the heavenly [places]. 11[This was] in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Based on Gods integrity and Character, we can know that Satan and the fallen Angels had their chance at redemption and they rejected it. The creation of mankind and giving Satan more time to live in his rebellion only furthers the Grace and patience of Our Lord. The Lord could have just Judged and condemned Satan on the Spot. But God Is allowing Satan an Appeal to that Just verdict! It shows us just how patient our Lord really is with his Creatures.

So has anyone studied the Angelic or Kingdom conflict? Do you understand why you are really here? It is in the Mystery doctrine that Paul taught the Church.

 

[Brother Mike]

But God Is allowing Satan an Appeal to that Just verdict! It shows us just how patient our Lord really is with his Creatures.

I would go back and restudy this a bit more. Satan was first cursed in the Garden for touching God's man's Adam. Iniquity was found in him walking in the Garden of eden... Eze 18...

Salvation was never planed for angels, they were created servants, they were just suppose to serve. Satan never got a second chance at another verdict once God cursed him in the Garden, as He left the place he was created to be. This is why the Angels say why is God so mindful of this man.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

When did Satan Fall? Satan is already fallen in our first telling of Him in Genesis in the Garden.

All of us at some point in time have asked the question,"Why am I here?","What is my purpose here?", "what is the meaning of life?"

We have all the Christian cliches, " God is Love,He wanted someone to love.","He was lonely.","God wanted friends.","God wanted fellowship."

This is why we are here....To resolve the prehistoric Angelic conflict, the invisible war that surrounds us. To prove to Satan and the fallen Angels that God is Just and righteous and most important, that God is willing to give Grace and Mercy to all that will accept it. Satan called God unfair in His treatment and judgement of His Creatures.We are here on this planet to reveal to Satan that God is fair and Just. And His Judgment is Just to creatures that willingly reject his Grace and Mercy.

Satan still appeals and is in his defendant role in the courtroom to this day. See Job 1:6-8.

Job is a witness to satan, Jobs purpose in his life.

Eph 3:9-11~~9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities(Satan and the Fallen angels) in the heavenly [places]. 11[This was] in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Based on Gods integrity and Character, we can know that Satan and the fallen Angels had their chance at redemption and they rejected it. The creation of mankind and giving Satan more time to live in his rebellion only furthers the Grace and patience of Our Lord. The Lord could have just Judged and condemned Satan on the Spot. But God Is allowing Satan an Appeal to that Just verdict! It shows us just how patient our Lord really is with his Creatures.

So has anyone studied the Angelic or Kingdom conflict? Do you understand why you are really here? It is in the Mystery doctrine that Paul taught the Church.

Is this doctrine the one that says, the fallen angels get to come through this life and choose?


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

But God Is allowing Satan an Appeal to that Just verdict! It shows us just how patient our Lord really is with his Creatures.

I would go back and restudy this a bit more. Satan was first cursed in the Garden for touching God's man's Adam. Iniquity was found in him walking in the Garden of eden... Eze 18...

Salvation was never planed for angels, they were created servants, they were just suppose to serve. Satan never got a second chance at another verdict once God cursed him in the Garden, as He left the place he was created to be. This is why the Angels say why is God so mindful of this man.

Mike.

Where do you see that satan touched Adam? And its Eze 28.

Isa 14:12-14 Is Satans fall from heaven and the 5 "i wills". He was already fallen when He met Adam in the Garden. Only a fallen creature and a creature that has come out of its God Given role would tempt Eve and Adam. And the 5 "I wills" are clearly what caused Satans Fall.

I do not see " I will touch Adam"

Isa 14:12-17 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit. Those who see you will gaze at you, they will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a wilderness and overthrew its cities, who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'"

I was actually wondering if anyone on this forum has studied some of this mystery doctrine.

 

[gr8grace]

When did Satan Fall? Satan is already fallen in our first telling of Him in Genesis in the Garden.

All of us at some point in time have asked the question,"Why am I here?","What is my purpose here?", "what is the meaning of life?"

We have all the Christian cliches, " God is Love,He wanted someone to love.","He was lonely.","God wanted friends.","God wanted fellowship."

This is why we are here....To resolve the prehistoric Angelic conflict, the invisible war that surrounds us. To prove to Satan and the fallen Angels that God is Just and righteous and most important, that God is willing to give Grace and Mercy to all that will accept it. Satan called God unfair in His treatment and judgement of His Creatures.We are here on this planet to reveal to Satan that God is fair and Just. And His Judgment is Just to creatures that willingly reject his Grace and Mercy.

Satan still appeals and is in his defendant role in the courtroom to this day. See Job 1:6-8.

Job is a witness to satan, Jobs purpose in his life.

Eph 3:9-11~~9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities(Satan and the Fallen angels) in the heavenly [places]. 11[This was] in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Based on Gods integrity and Character, we can know that Satan and the fallen Angels had their chance at redemption and they rejected it. The creation of mankind and giving Satan more time to live in his rebellion only furthers the Grace and patience of Our Lord. The Lord could have just Judged and condemned Satan on the Spot. But God Is allowing Satan an Appeal to that Just verdict! It shows us just how patient our Lord really is with his Creatures.

So has anyone studied the Angelic or Kingdom conflict? Do you understand why you are really here? It is in the Mystery doctrine that Paul taught the Church.

Is this doctrine the one that says, the fallen angels get to come through this life and choose?


JLB

No. God is allowing Satan to make all the excuses he wants and Satan gets to see for himself that Gods Judgment is fair. That is why We don't see him In The Lake of Fire at this moment. He is Going no matter what. He obviously had His Chance at redemption. And God is allowing Satan to "see for himself" that Gods Judgement of him was fair and Just.

 

[JLB]

I was actually wondering if anyone on this forum has studied some of this mystery doctrine.

Is this doctrine the one that says, the fallen angels get to come through this life and choose?

 

[Brother Mike]

I was actually wondering if anyone on this forum has studied some of this mystery doctrine.

I have studied it, came to some conclusions, heard others. Then had to change my views....... So, it's pretty interesting you actually tried to tackle this one, shows some diligenceAs there, and impressive.

Being a Word only person, it is sometimes hard for me to change when something sounds so good. There are times I just wish other scriptures where there to support what I would like to believe.

We look back to the origin of when Satan blew it. Many like to take this word ......

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The two Hebrew Words together mean laid to waste and in ruin.

The theory goes that God made the earth, Satan was a good guy then everything went to "hell" so to speak and in the process the earth was destroyed in the process. God's first creation turned on him, so God decided to duplicate himself and make man. Angels are not like God, but that they are spirits and just created servants but that did not go well, so God makes man to fellowship with him. Satan gets Jealous because Adam is everything Satan wanted to be, so Satan comes in and takes what God gave Adam.

Just one theory though, with very little scripture support. Some say Jeremiah supports this......

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

It sort of connects, but there is this people that are around and they would not have preceded Adam. One problem I have with this theory. A situation where the World was made a wilderness, the same language in Genesis.

One thing scriptures do back up. Every place Satan messed with God's man....... Made David number his troops, Messing with Job when God said the whole deal was without cause, Messing with Peter to sift him as Wheat, Stopped Paul from going to Asia, Sent a messenger to stop Paul preaching the gospel, and I am sure Satan's crimes go on and on.......... All those crimes go without much notice on God's end, and man is the one that takes the fall for listening to the devil in the first place. David got in trouble for number the troops, not Satan.

All but one place.............

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

This is where Satan blew it, the first and only time God slammed him for messing with God's people. Not only that, but this is the first time the mention of Jesus coming and sealing Satan's fate. Right there in the Garden.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The place God put this rat was right in the Garden when iniquity was found. Finding it there with Satan's interaction with Eve, means Satan had already decided to be a Rat. This is where he sealed his fate, and was cursed, with the promise of the Lord Jesus coming.

So................. Was there a big fight before that God just let slide? All I have is scripture to compare but continue your studies it is a interesting and hard topic.

One thing I think is that talking about World....... It might have meant more localized like just pertaining to the Garden. We know the Garden was trashed.

Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

têbêl (WORLD) also means a habitable part of a land.

You decided....... Work it out.

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

oh, the ole jewish cabalistic theory of there being a prior creation that was destroyed. nothing new. funny how often Christians have the same ideas and the jews.

 

[gr8grace]

I was actually wondering if anyone on this forum has studied some of this mystery doctrine.

I have studied it, came to some conclusions, heard others. Then had to change my views....... So, it's pretty interesting you actually tried to tackle this one, shows some diligenceAs there, and impressive.

Being a Word only person, it is sometimes hard for me to change when something sounds so good. There are times I just wish other scriptures where there to support what I would like to believe.

We look back to the origin of when Satan blew it. Many like to take this word ......

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The two Hebrew Words together mean laid to waste and in ruin.

The theory goes that God made the earth, Satan was a good guy then everything went to "hell" so to speak and in the process the earth was destroyed in the process. God's first creation turned on him, so God decided to duplicate himself and make man. Angels are not like God, but that they are spirits and just created servants but that did not go well, so God makes man to fellowship with him. Satan gets Jealous because Adam is everything Satan wanted to be, so Satan comes in and takes what God gave Adam.

Just one theory though, with very little scripture support. Some say Jeremiah supports this......

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

It sort of connects, but there is this people that are around and they would not have preceded Adam. One problem I have with this theory. A situation where the World was made a wilderness, the same language in Genesis.

One thing scriptures do back up. Every place Satan messed with God's man....... Made David number his troops, Messing with Job when God said the whole deal was without cause, Messing with Peter to sift him as Wheat, Stopped Paul from going to Asia, Sent a messenger to stop Paul preaching the gospel, and I am sure Satan's crimes go on and on.......... All those crimes go without much notice on God's end, and man is the one that takes the fall for listening to the devil in the first place. David got in trouble for number the troops, not Satan.

All but one place.............

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

This is where Satan blew it, the first and only time God slammed him for messing with God's people. Not only that, but this is the first time the mention of Jesus coming and sealing Satan's fate. Right there in the Garden.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The place God put this rat was right in the Garden when iniquity was found. Finding it there with Satan's interaction with Eve, means Satan had already decided to be a Rat. This is where he sealed his fate, and was cursed, with the promise of the Lord Jesus coming.

So................. Was there a big fight before that God just let slide? All I have is scripture to compare but continue your studies it is a interesting and hard topic.

One thing I think is that talking about World....... It might have meant more localized like just pertaining to the Garden. We know the Garden was trashed.

Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

têbêl (WORLD) also means a habitable part of a land.

You decided....... Work it out.

Mike.

Gen 1:2~~ And the earth became(Hayah and its active,not was) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 19:26~~But Lots wife, behind him, looked back and She Became(Hayah and its active) a pillar of salt.

The Spirit of God denotes restoration. Christ was the Creator of Gen 1:1~~In the beginning , God created(out of nothing) the heavens and the Earth.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Formless and Void the same as Gen 1:2

There is "no man". When has there been "no man?", when is there "no man?" when will there be "no man?" Never since the Genesis account, and never during or after the second advent or 1000 years. man Has and will always be here since the genesis account. So when did this Judgment come upon the earth? Before man was created when the Angels inhabited the earth.

Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? This is Satan, his cities and the fallen angels who are Satans prisoners....It is a hint of another world. When the Angels had domain over the earth.

 

[Deborah13]

The theory goes that God made the earth, Satan was a good guy then everything went to "hell" so to speak and in the process the earth was destroyed in the process. God's first creation turned on him, so God decided to duplicate himself and make man

Is this some kind of take off on Dake's teaching of the pre-adamite world, that was destroyed? I know there are some who believe this because they try to make the Bible match it up with geology, paleontology, and subhuman primate species.

But I am not familiar with this one that is presented here.

 

[jasoncran]

that implies death before the fall of man. the question is why did God allow sin to be that decimating to his creation. he could have done the same to adam and eve and yet he didn't.

the angels aren't mentioned when they were created please tell me when they were created?

 

[jasoncran]

The theory goes that God made the earth, Satan was a good guy then everything went to "hell" so to speak and in the process the earth was destroyed in the process. God's first creation turned on him, so God decided to duplicate himself and make man

Is this some kind of take off on Dake's teaching of the pre-adamite world, that was destroyed? I know there are some who believe this because they try to make the Bible match it up with geology, paleontology, and subhuman primate species.

dake got this as all do from the jewish Talmud some jews believe this. ramban didn't. and that is called the gap theory.

 

[gr8grace]

that implies death before the fall of man. the question is why did God allow sin to be that decimating to his creation. he could have done the same to adam and eve and yet he didn't.

the angels aren't mentioned when they were created please tell me when they were created?

Job 38:4-7

They were around before the creation of the earth. Also you will see that ALL the Angels shouted for joy when God created the Earth. All the angels were still united when God created the earth...Job 38:7...Satan had not fallen yet. Who knows How long they had been around and who knows how long the earth was around before He created man.

I think God froze the earth and he did not allow sin to decimate it. He stopped it and froze it. we are now seeing what sin does to man, Angels and creation After He restored it in Gen 1:2-31. He is allowing mankind, Satan, the fallen angels and even the elect Angels be first hand witnesses to the destruction that Sin causes.

 

[jasoncran]

that implies death before the fall of man. the question is why did God allow sin to be that decimating to his creation. he could have done the same to adam and eve and yet he didn't.

the angels aren't mentioned when they were created please tell me when they were created?

Job 38:4-7


on what day? the first, second , the third. it doesn't say. ramba , as much as a torah expert he was didn't quote that, he claimed on day 2
per the sages. no theologian I know even claims what you say. you are espousing gap theory. I haven't heard this stuff since I was a jw as that is what they often said or talked about. the earth per the jews is about five days old when man was put on it. also the words firmament and lights and darkness are way different then you claim. the word barah means god created the heavens and the earth from nothing. he didn't recreate it.

of course how does a star sing?

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

the bible says there was light before the creation of the suns and stars so how could that be? and the earth was first btw not the other way.

 

[jasoncran]

while adam Clarke says that the morning stars are angels and I can see that but he doesn't claim gap theory or such like.

 

[gr8grace]

that implies death before the fall of man. the question is why did God allow sin to be that decimating to his creation. he could have done the same to adam and eve and yet he didn't.

the angels aren't mentioned when they were created please tell me when they were created?

Job 38:4-7


on what day? the first, second , the third. it doesn't say. ramba , as much as a torah expert he was didn't quote that, he claimed on day 2
per the sages. no theologian I know even claims what you say. you are espousing gap theory. I haven't heard this stuff since I was a jw as that is what they often said or talked about. the earth per the jews is about five days old when man was put on it. also the words firmament and lights and darkness are way different then you claim. the word barah means god created the heavens and the earth from nothing. he didn't recreate it.

of course how does a star sing?

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

the bible says there was light before the creation of the suns and stars so how could that be? and the earth was first btw not the other way.

For me Jason you are always hard to follow. You always seem all over the place to me. Forgive me, I will try to decipher what you are saying.

The Genesis account Does not record the creation of the Angels. Job tells us that they were around before Gen 1:1. Job 38:7. I cannot give you a day...1st or 3rd because they were already around. I believe Job 38 tells us it was not in any of the days in Gen 1:2-31. They were already created. Gen 1:1 is the creation of the Earth and heavens. Gen 1:2-31 is God restoring the earth after he froze it.

 

[jasoncran]

the word for god created the heavens and the earth is one day one. right?

its barah.

theres no gap of age allowed nor pause nor unfreezing. adding a doctrine to make it fit isn't working. why does the bible say that satan was without sin in the garden of eden until he deceived adam? if satan was already fallen then you have ask that.

the word firmament implies upper and lower waters and nothing about them being frozen. the earth was without shape and void. I take that to mean that it didn't even exist.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

land was even on the earth until what day? the third day. the water wasn't frozen it was nothing like that

 

[jasoncran]

I should go into what ramban teaches about the firmament it makes sense. a type of proto matter from which all matter was made from.

 

[gr8grace]

the word for god created the heavens and the earth is one day one. right?

its barah.

theres no gap of age allowed nor pause nor unfreezing. adding a doctrine to make it fit isn't working. why does the bible say that satan was without sin in the garden of eden until he deceived adam? if satan was already fallen then you have ask that.

the word firmament implies upper and lower waters and nothing about them being frozen. the earth was without shape and void. I take that to mean that it didn't even exist.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

land was even on the earth until what day? the third day. the water wasn't frozen it was nothing like that

Yes I agree Gen 1:1 is barah, created out of nothing. I also believe that God has never created(barah) something that was tohuw waabohuw....confused and empty. Gen 1:2

Gen 1:2~~ The earth became(Hayah is active. It is NOT "was") formless and void( tohuw waabohuw....confused and empty), and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

we can even look at the "darkness" in Gen 1:2 "Choshek" is the same darkness that was CREATED by God in Exodus 10:21.

We can also look at the "deep" in Gen 1:2 Tehown is where we get our Greek word Abussos...the Abyss. I do not think God intended to start his perfect creation from these circumstances. I believe that it was froze this way and God restored it from from this position.

You mention land. Does it appear from under the water or is it created?

Gen 1:6-8~~ the only place God did NOT say "and it was Good" why is that?

 

[jasoncran]

go to the words in Hebrew, and god spoke the land by saying let the water depart and the land arise.
for the record when it comes to the torah I refuse to bother with the greek. why? because its not a literal rendering and he jews know that . the modern translations that are literal don't use the lxx but the Hebrew Masoretic text.

no you have denied that part with mike where he says satan was sinless. why Is that?
actually the tohu means proto matter. I don't have the time to get ramban out and use his translation of tohu. since its a book and its a page long on the tohu I would have to post that by hand.

even then reconcile this

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

ezek 28

satan was in the garden of eden, how could that be when he fell from heaven he also took the demons. that is the nail and the final nail of the coffin.