The Kingdom or Angelic Conflict

[jasoncran]

uhm god spoke the land to appear , sorry he didn't flood the earth first. show me any verse where it says the other was flooded first then created. good luck. mike already destroyed that.

 

[jasoncran]

on tohu from ramban and thanks [MENTION=841]StoveBolts[/MENTION] whom I remember used this to get me into ramban.

Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity. The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word bara (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly, He did not create anything, but he formed and made things with it, and from this hyly He brought everything into existence and clothed the forms and put them into a finished condition.

Know that the heavens and all that is in them consists of one substance, and the earth and everythign this is in it consists of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He, created these two substances from nothing; they alone were created, and everything else was constructed from them.

This substance, which the Greeks called hyly, is called in the sacred language tohu, the word being derived from the expression of the Sages: “betohei (when the wicked bethinks himself) of his doings in the past.” If a person wants to decide a name for it [this primordial matter], he may bethink himself, change his mind and call it by another name since it has taken on no form to which the name should be attached. The form which this substance finally takes on is called in the sacred language bohu, which is a composite word made up of the two words bo hu (in it there is [substance]). This may be compared to the verse, Thou art not able 'asohu' (to perform it, Exodus 18:18) in which case the word asohu is missing a vav and an aleph [and I is a composite of the two words] aso hu. It is this which Scripture says, And he shall stretch over it the line of 'tohu' (confusion) and the stones of 'bohu.' (Isaiah 34:11) [The tohu in Hebrew or the hyly in Greek] is the line by which the craftsman delineates the plan of his structure and that which he hopes to make. This is derived from the expression, Kavei (Hope) unto G-d (Psalms 27:14). The stones are forms in the building. Similarly it is written, They are acconted by Him as nought and 'tohu,' (Isaiah 40:17) as tohu comes after nothingness and there is nothing yet in it.

So the Rabbis have also said in Sefer Yetzirah: “He created substance from tohu, and made that which was nothing something.”

They have furthermore said in the Midrash of Rabbi Nechunya ben Hakanah: “Rabbi Berachyah said: “What is the meaning of the verse, And the earth was 'tohu' (without form) 'vavohu' (and void)? What is the meaning of the word “was?” It had already been tohu. And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people. It was then turned into bohu. And what is bohu? It is a thing which has substance, as it is written, [bohu is a composite of the two words] “bo hu” (in it there is subtance)v

I take a Hebrew sage and well versed in the tounge over you, ramban may be lost but his argument of this from the Hebrew is still respected by the Chassidic jews.

 

[Brother Mike]

Before man was created when the Angels inhabited the earth.

Ah, you read it a bit different than I did. I read it as if .......... man had once been there. Never thought of it like that, going to examine that a bit.

So, "There was no man!!!" was a statement that man had yet to show up yet, not that man had been there once and got wiped out..... Ummm... Never looked at that passage that way. Interesting!!!

Is this some kind of take off on Dake's teaching of the pre-adamite world, that was destroyed? I know there are some who believe this because they try to make the Bible match it up with geology, paleontology, and subhuman primate species.

But I am not familiar with this one that is presented here.

The one presented here is that in the beginning God made the heavens and the Earth. Satan being God's musician of something are here on the planet Earth. There are passages that say Satan has access to everything, even the Garden.

Something happened............ Satan had a bad day, his doggie died, something but the effect was so dramatic that the earth was made inhabitable, hence the accounts of the Earth laid to waste in ruin which is the Hebrew without form or void. Something happened.........

This is without all the extra stuff you exaplained because that stuff is nonsense and added. Even a version where we are fallen angels, the earth gets trashed in our rebellion, and God sends us here to try again, sort of like reincarnation but we never died, we just are made human. So, humans are actually Angels because of the big fight on earth before Adam.......... nonsense.........
I posted the scriptures above, and Peter says this...........

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

After Satan wanted to Exalt his throne:

Isa_14:23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

The thought is that Peter once already mentioned the Flood of Noah, that covered the whole earth, not just part and the earth was actually destroyed twice already, once when Satan went bad, and once in the Flood of Noah. (I just said the thought............... MIKE is just taking the scriptures and comparing, not having formed a solid opinion.)

that implies death before the fall of man. the question is why did God allow sin to be that decimating to his creation. he could have done the same to adam and eve and yet he didn't.

Not really, as Angels are human in appearance and created servants, so Death might not have been a thought as it is with man who is flesh bound. We have no creation date for angels and just assume they have always been. We know they were around at the time of Adam.

(Theory) One theory is that these very ancient ruins were built by angels and the angels lived almost like we did with duties and going back and fourth building and moving where ever they pleased until Satan rebelled. Who knows?

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

satan was in the garden @Brother Mike that is the biggest problem he was in his glory then and without inquity.

see Ezekiel 28 for that. first off the angels have no part in creating, as that isn't mentioned or clearly said as a no but since it not mentioned unless like the Talmud and that stuff I wont go there.

but that Isaiah verse is alluding to Babylon not satan nor the demons nor the ruins!

For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts.

now we know that Babylon was never literally flooded but an army did take the city and it wasn't leveled at all. it just went into dust slowly.

 

[Brother Mike]

theres no gap of age allowed nor pause nor unfreezing. adding a doctrine to make it fit isn't working. why does the bible say that satan was without sin in the garden of eden until he deceived adam? if satan was already fallen then you have ask that.

We know Satan was cursed in the Garden and his impending doom was given with the coming of Jesus. Iniquity was found in him, something God found and something Satan did to show God that He was bad. The only account of his first being cursed by God for messing with God's man is in the Garden. Every other time Satan messes with man after Man only gets the blame because Satan sentence has already been announced. It would be speculation to think God and Satan had a falling out before the Garden, and God may very well have just put up with Satan until Satan messed with Adam.

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Some believe God partially gave Satan what he wanted a place in the heavens and hence this was not Good, but it was just so as something that needed done and not good. Just theory.

uhm god spoke the land to appear , sorry he didn't flood the earth first. show me any verse where it says the other was flooded first then created. good luck. mike already destroyed that.

Also, your acting as if this is my belief or theory, I am just giving the theory backed by scriptures and who cares what the Jews think? We have the Word, good enough with scriptures.

....

 

[jasoncran]

see Ezekiel 28, why does it word that way?

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I don't buy gap theory for myriads of reasons on the jews don't date the jewish religious calendar from the age of the earth being billions of years old. if the earth sat for eons it wouldn't be literal day and that is how the jews take it in general.

I take it was so as god made it and was so ACCORDING TO HIS SPEAKING.

any pause makes it older and longer then any six day creation, good luck finding a pause there. how long is a day? when the Hebrew put a number in front of the word yom it means a day literally!

 

[gr8grace]

uhm god spoke the land to appear , sorry he didn't flood the earth first. show me any verse where it says the other was flooded first then created. good luck. mike already destroyed that.

You are not following me jason. I am not saying that it was created after Gen 1:1 It was restored. the dry land was CREATED in Gen 1:1....Perfect and instant in the right order. After gen 1:1 is the restoration of the earth.

Peter gives us a glimpse of this flood. 2 Pet 3:5-7~~ 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God [the] heavens existed long ago and [the] earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

First of All Noahs flood is overlooked or it escapes notice? Not Noahs flood, even unbelievers are aware of Noahs flood. And it escapes no believer, its one of the greatest events known to mankind. They overlook the first flood, before mankind!

Second, notice Peter has this flood effecting the HEAVENS also. Noahs flood did not affect the heavens. Peter included the HEAVENS that existed long ago in that world that was flooded. And he includes this PRESENT heaven to be in the Judgement of fire.

The KJV Gives us a good glimpse of this Flood.....Verse 5 the earth standing out of the water and in the water. It shows us that not only the earth was affected but the surrounding heavens....envision a bobber floating in the water. that is what this flood looked like. Noahs flood affected just the earth.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm. I disagree. I have debated the global flood with the athiests. its all local and why would god then promise not to destroy the earth with the flood twice? when he did promise not to do it again?

uhm there wasn't rain until the flood of noah and well if there wasn't rain then how did it not change the heaven?

no clouds no rain. I wont go into the canopy theory.


sorry you sad that earth was and is older, that cant be, was the earth before genesis 1:1 and older.

before the words heavens and the earth the word barah is used,. meaning in plain English. they were NOT! no earth nor heavens prior to that statement.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

the flood of noah is the only reference here. if want to say that the earth was before the words of genesis 1:1 and in existence you are really stretching the plain wording there.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

were is this word for restore there? show me where a pause and catyclism is mentioned and recreation is mentioned to support that. barah means created from nothing.

while I am not saying that the waters weren't there just that well read what I posted on the tohu and I will have to post what ramban says about the firmament.

 

[Deborah13]

This is without all the extra stuff you exaplained because that stuff is nonsense and added.

What extra stuff?

 

[jasoncran]

adam Clarke agrees with my position.

Verse 5
For this they willingly are ignorant of - They shut their eyes against the light, and refuse all evidence; what does not answer their purpose they will not know. And the apostle refers to a fact that militates against their hypothesis, with which they refused to acquaint themselves; and their ignorance he attributes to their unwillingness to learn the true state of the case.
By the word of God the heavens were of old - I shall set down the Greek text of this extremely difficult clause: Ουρανοι ησαν εκπαλαι, και γη εξ ὑδατος και δι ‘ ὑδατος συνεστωσα, τῳ του Θεου λογῳ· translated thus by Mr. Wakefield: “A heaven and an earth formed out of water, and by means of water, by the appointment of God, had continued from old time.” By Dr. Macknight thus; “The heavens were anciently, and the earth of water: and through water the earth consists by the word of God.” By Kypke thus: “The heavens were of old, and the earth, which is framed, by the word of God, from the waters, and between the waters.” However we take the words, they seem to refer to the origin of the earth. It was the opinion of the remotest antiquity that the earth was formed out of water, or a primitive moisture which they termed ὑλη , (hule), a first matter or nutriment for all things; but Thales pointedly taught αρχην δε των παντως ὑδωρ ειναι , that all things derive their existence from water, and this very nearly expresses the sentiment of Peter, and nearly in his own terms too. But is this doctrine true? It must be owned that it appears to be the doctrine of Moses: In the beginning, says he, God made the heavens and the earth; and the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Now, these heavens and earth which God made in the beginning, and which he says were at first formless and empty, and which he calls the deep, are in the very next verse called waters; from which it is evident that Moses teaches that the earth was made out of some fluid substance, to which the name of water is properly given. And that the earth was at first in a fluid mass is most evident from its form; it is not round, as has been demonstrated by measuring some degrees near the north pole, and under the equator; the result of which proved that the figure of the earth was that of an oblate spheroid, a figure nearly resembling that of an orange. And this is the form that any soft or elastic body would assume if whirled rapidly round a center, as the earth is around its axis. The measurement to which I have referred shows the earth to be flatted at the poles, and raised at the equator. And by this measurement it was demonstrated that the diameter of the earth at the equator was greater by about twenty-five miles than at the poles.
Now, considering the earth to be thus formed εξ ὑδατος , of water, we have next to consider what the apostle means by δι ‘ ὑδατος , variously translated by out of, by means of, and between, the water.
Standing out of the water gives no sense, and should be abandoned. If we translate between the waters, it will bear some resemblance to Genesis 1:6, Genesis 1:7: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of, בתוך (bethoch), between, the waters; and let it divide the waters from the waters: and God divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; then it may refer to the whole of the atmosphere, with which the earth is everywhere surrounded, and which contains all the vapours which belong to our globe, and without which we could neither have animal nor vegetative life. Thus then the earth, or terraqueous globe, which was originally formed out of water, subsists by water; and by means of that very water, the water compacted with the earth - the fountains of the great deep, and the waters in the atmosphere - the windows of heaven, Genesis 7:11, the antediluvian earth was destroyed, as St. Peter states in the next verse: the terraqueous globe, which was formed originally of water or a fluid substance, the chaos or first matter, and which was suspended in the heavens - the atmosphere, enveloped with water, by means of which water it was preserved; yet, because of the wickedness of its inhabitants, was destroyed by those very same waters out of which it was originally made, and by which it subsisted.


Verse 7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now - The present earth and its atmosphere, which are liable to the same destruction, because the same means still exist, (for there is still water enough to drown the earth, and there is iniquity enough to induce God to destroy it and its inhabitants), are nevertheless kept in store, τεθησαυρισμενοι , treasured up, kept in God‘s storehouse, to be destroyed, not by water, but by fire at the day of judgment.
From all this it appears that those mockers affected to be ignorant of the Mosaic account of the formation of the earth, and of its destruction by the waters of the deluge; and indeed this is implied in their stating that all things continued as they were from the creation. But St. Peter calls them back to the Mosaic account, to prove that this was false; for the earth, etc., which were then formed, had perished by the flood; and that the present earth, etc., which were formed out of the preceding, should, at the day of judgment, perish by the fire of God‘s wrath.

 

[jasoncran]

if you notice that he says hule(hyly) which is exactly what ramban mentions. that is why i like both Clarke and ramban. they never met and Clarke wasn't a man impressed with judiasm and some say he hated them and yet he used the Talmud often. he often will agree with ramban. this is one such instance!

 

[gr8grace]

go to the words in Hebrew, and god spoke the land by saying let the water depart and the land arise.
for the record when it comes to the torah I refuse to bother with the greek. why? because its not a literal rendering and he jews know that . the modern translations that are literal don't use the lxx but the Hebrew Masoretic text.

no you have denied that part with mike where he says satan was sinless. why Is that?
actually the tohu means proto matter. I don't have the time to get ramban out and use his translation of tohu. since its a book and its a page long on the tohu I would have to post that by hand.

even then reconcile this

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

ezek 28

satan was in the garden of eden, how could that be when he fell from heaven he also took the demons. that is the nail and the final nail of the coffin.

Just see what you think jason. Do you think it is possible that there is a garden of God in Heaven? And one on the earth? I believe that it is possible and this garden has the tree of life also, in the new Jerusalem in Heaven.

 

[gr8grace]

uhm. I disagree. I have debated the global flood with the athiests. its all local and why would god then promise not to destroy the earth with the flood twice? when he did promise not to do it again?

uhm there wasn't rain until the flood of noah and well if there wasn't rain then how did it not change the heaven?

no clouds no rain. I wont go into the canopy theory.


sorry you sad that earth was and is older, that cant be, was the earth before genesis 1:1 and older.

before the words heavens and the earth the word barah is used,. meaning in plain English. they were NOT! no earth nor heavens prior to that statement.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

the flood of noah is the only reference here. if want to say that the earth was before the words of genesis 1:1 and in existence you are really stretching the plain wording there.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

were is this word for restore there? show me where a pause and catyclism is mentioned and recreation is mentioned to support that. barah means created from nothing.

while I am not saying that the waters weren't there just that well read what I posted on the tohu and I will have to post what ramban says about the firmament.

I am sorry Jason, but I can't follow you. You are saying things that I did not say and do not believe. You equate things to my posts that I have not said or declared. Maybe I am just bad at Explaining and can't get my point across, but you seem to be bringing up arguments about things that I have not said. Sorry bud.

Added:

If Noahs flood was a local flood. God Lied to us. God said he would not flood the earth again. If it was local, he Lied, we see local floods everyday. It was the WHOLE earth.

 

[Brother Mike]

sorry you sad that earth was and is older, that cant be, was the earth before genesis 1:1 and older.

before the words heavens and the earth the word barah is used,. meaning in plain English. they were NOT! no earth nor heavens prior to that statement.

I said nothing!!! I was just sharing some views on the angelic kingdom is all. I could care less about the subject.

What extra stuff?

I posted the extra stuff............ you know, we are really angels and bla, bla, bla.... that stuff.

Mike.

 

[jasoncran]

go to the words in Hebrew, and god spoke the land by saying let the water depart and the land arise.
for the record when it comes to the torah I refuse to bother with the greek. why? because its not a literal rendering and he jews know that . the modern translations that are literal don't use the lxx but the Hebrew Masoretic text.

no you have denied that part with mike where he says satan was sinless. why Is that?
actually the tohu means proto matter. I don't have the time to get ramban out and use his translation of tohu. since its a book and its a page long on the tohu I would have to post that by hand.

even then reconcile this

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

ezek 28

satan was in the garden of eden, how could that be when he fell from heaven he also took the demons. that is the nail and the final nail of the coffin.

Just see what you think jason. Do you think it is possible that there is a garden of God in Heaven? And one on the earth? I believe that it is possible and this garden has the tree of life also, in the new Jerusalem in Heaven.

that jewish thought its call gan eden, its called paradise as well, we have a similar concept called heaven. the place of rest until a body of resurrection for the righteous is given to them.

 

[jasoncran]

the pre flood doctrine of yours at grace is what is called the Lucifer flood. that was whole earth per the gap theory but you did say even the sinners know about the noah flood they don't. in science that isn't even mentioned in grade school nor in high school. if its mentioned its always local.

they deny it was global

 

[josefnospam]

God is willing to give Grace and Mercy to all that will accept it

God saves his people despite there sins and for his pleasure and purpose. Our purpose in life, if we are his, is to give ALL the honor, praise and Glory to him and gently tell others his power to save ALL who are his, without help from man. He is a great and powerful, mighty God and he will not fail to save every one he died for. I thank him daily for his Salvation plan. God Bless you as only he can do.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The place God put this rat was right in the Garden when iniquity was found. Finding it there with Satan's interaction with Eve, means Satan had already decided to be a Rat. This is where he sealed his fate, and was cursed, with the promise of the Lord Jesus coming.

Isa 14:12-14 Is Satans fall from heaven and the 5 "i wills". He was already fallen when He met Adam in the Garden. Only a fallen creature and a creature that has come out of its God Given role would tempt Eve and Adam. And the 5 "I wills" are clearly what caused Satans Fall.

Why are people so quick to assume Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 have ANYTHING at all to do with Satan? NEITHER passage mentions Ha-Satan and both explicitly claim to be directed at men that were the respective kings of Babylon and Tyre.

We know the Garden was trashed.

Do we? Nowhere in scripture has such a thing been written to my knowledge. The text you quoted never says that Eden was trashed. What it says is that the desolate land would/had become like Edem and would be inhabited.

 

[Brother Mike]

Why are people so quick to assume Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 have ANYTHING at all to do with Satan? NEITHER passage mentions Ha-Satan and both explicitly claim to be directed at men that were the respective kings of Babylon and Tyre.

I fully believe God is speaking of Satan here. I understand the natural understanding of these passages, but I don't agree.

Do we? Nowhere in scripture has such a thing been written to my knowledge. The text you quoted never says that Eden was trashed. What it says is that the desolate land would/had become like Edem and would be inhabited.

It's in Eze............... I thought I posted the scripture, but even so, I just posted theory's that may be based loosely on the Word. I am not concrete on this Truth Over Tradition.

It's sort of a subject I wish I had more scriptures to put together.