The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[Free]

and further more if you remember, God did die. and not only his body died but his actual being. In his son Jesus. Jesus died, but came back to life. So He would be an exception to the rule about immaterial beings cannot die. But I don't know for sure if God can simply remove them from existence in the same way he put them into existence. That is possible. But it would be timeless, so they would have never existed and always existed in the same essence, which is contradictory to our sciences.

Jesus has two natures--God and man. His human nature did die, yes.

What you are essentially stating with your argument about immaterial angels not being able to die, is exactly equivalent to God having actually created a rock too heavy for himself to lift.

 

[Butch5]

Ceasing to exist isn't punishment.

sure it is. Would suggest that the death penalty for murder isn't punishment?

Do you agree that it does teach differing degrees of punishment at some point after Christ's return? Are there varying degrees of annihilation?

Not sure about that.

Whether or not the idea comes from Greek philosophy is completely irrelevant as to the truth of the matter.

Well, since it's source is Greek philosophy and not the Scriptures we can't really call it Christian.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (ESV)

Does this not say that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be "tormented day and night forever and ever"? Is this speaking of annihilation?

It says they will be tormented to the ages of the ages. However, the op is about people not spirits.

 

[Politico]

hey check out post :
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ure-or-destruction.71606/page-23#post-1395579

OK thanks.

 

[Politico]

sure it is. Would suggest that the death penalty for murder isn't punishment?

.

Completely inappropriate comparison. You are assuming that the mortal death of a person equates to nonexistence (annihilation). Your conclusion is presumed in your premises. To kill someone in this life is not the same as rendering them nonexistent.

The death penalty is not punishment for those who believe in instant annihilation and who want to die.

 

[Free]

sure it is. Would suggest that the death penalty for murder isn't punishment?

Of course it is. The punishment fits the crime and the soul lives on, knowing what it has done, to face judgement. Ceasing to exist is entirely different--it is nothingness.

Not sure about that.

Which question are you addressing?

Well, since it's source is Greek philosophy and not the Scriptures we can't really call it Christian.

If the Bible mentions it, then the Bible is the ultimate source and it is irrelevant as to whether or not sources outside of Christianity came up with it first. It just isn't a good argument to use. That is my only point.

It says they will be tormented to the ages of the ages. However, the op is about people not spirits.

Indeed, it is. How are spirits different from people, exactly?

 

[godsquadgeek]

So far you have a lot of opinion and no Scripture, despite a few requests now to provide some. If someone exists outside of time, they are not bound by time and there was never a time when they did not exist, but that is God alone. Angels are created beings, and therefore exist in space and time.

sorry, angels are spiritual beings, not physical, that is found all throughout scripture.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Jesus has two natures--God and man. His human nature did die, yes.

What you are essentially stating with your argument about immaterial angels not being able to die, is exactly equivalent to God having actually created a rock too heavy for himself to lift.

the physical nature died on the Cross but thats not all. Jesus prayed, "father, father why have you forsaken me" implying that that was the point that the Godhood separated from the son, so that was the only time in history that the trinity was not the trinity.

 

[chessman]

Where does Scripture tell us that angels cannot die?

for they are not even able to die any longer, because they are like the angels and are sons of God, because they are sons of the resurrection.​

Luke 20:36 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 20:36&version=LEB

That is one of the major premises of your annihilationist views, is it not?

No, not really. And my view is that of destruction of both soull and body. I have a hard time even spelling annihilation.

The reason we’re even talking about fallen angels in the first place is that the only verse in the whole Bible that speaks of eternal torment is talking about Satan and his demons. People like to apply it to lost humans. Which I find odd since it’s obviously two different subjects.

But thanks for asking.

 

[Free]

sorry, angels are spiritual beings, not physical, that is found all throughout scripture. If you forgot.

Of course they are spiritual beings but that does not mean they are not created beings. If you are saying they aren't created, then you believe in polytheism, as they would be, be definition, gods.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for supporting my contention that the power of sin cannot be destroyed outside of the work of the Cross, this includes by means of annihilation (rendering non-existent). To render a person non-existent is to remove the power that sin has over that same person. Sin cannot have power over that which is non-existent.


Death is no more non-existence than non-existence is death. Annihilation is not punishment; it would be a release from all punishment and the power of sin.

That which is non-existent cannot possibly be punished, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Literally, no one has any cause to fear non-existence. What is there to fear in nothingness? There is no fear or discomfort in nothingness. Do you want to attempt to argue that discomfort of any sort is possible for those who no longer exist? There is literally no reason to fear God in this life if all one has to do is kill oneself and consequently be rendered non-existence.

What punishment does the Rich Man (parable) receive for sins? In His life on earth, he lived in comfort. There is no justice if such a man is simply rendered non-existent. If Annihilationism is true, then the Rich Man literally had nothing to fear. But yet this parable clearly indicates the presence of torment.

Job apparently even prefered annihilation to suffering (Job, chapter 3). So he understood that there is no punishment or suffering in non-existence.

Annihilationism is an enabler for suicide. Suicide is a sin, and anyone murdering themselves will die in rebellion, and as a consequence, will be in an everlasting Hell.

Psalm 73 seem to indicate that not all justice for transgressors are accomplished in this life.


Most certainly it does. Support is found in many passages. What do you believe the devil's feared in Matthew 8:29?

"Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does. Heaven is described as “everlasting” in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is “everlasting”(Matt. 25:41; cf. v. 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell." (The Big Book of Christian Apologetics)

"The fact that these persons [in Hell] are suffering no more justifies annihilating them than it does for a parent to kill a child who is suffering."



The phrase you have used (eternal life) is a reference to a particular quality of life found only in Christ. Of course Scripture is not going to use the same phrasing for the wicked pertaining to their quality of life in an everlasting Hell.

Mat 25:41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " The Greek word for "everlasting" in this verse is the same greek word used in Mark 10:30 and John 3:15.

As I said the first time. Your argument is illogical. Someone who doesn't exist isn't subject to sin, therefore, they cannot be freed from sin.

Hell does not last forever. Jesus said the sinners would suffer in Gehenna. Ezekiel prophesied that one day Gehenna would be once again made holy to the Lord.

The word eternal is an adjective that indicates time, not quality.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Of course they are spiritual beings but that does not mean they are not created beings. If you are saying they aren't created, then you believe in polytheism, as they would be, be definition, gods.

they are created, but no where in scripture does it say they die.

 

[Butch5]

Completely inappropriate comparison. You are assuming that the mortal death of a person equates to nonexistence (annihilation). Your conclusion is presumed in your premises. To kill someone in this life is not the same as rendering them nonexistent.

The death penalty is not punishment for those who believe in instant annihilation and who want to die.

According the the Scriptures death is non existence. So, yes the death penalty is punishment.

 

[Butch5]

Of course it is. The punishment fits the crime and the soul lives on, knowing what it has done, to face judgement. Ceasing to exist is entirely different--it is nothingness.

The soul doesn't live on. It just suffered the death penalty.

Which question are you addressing?

Your question about whether there are degrees of punishment after Christ returns.

If the Bible mentions it, then the Bible is the ultimate source and it is irrelevant as to whether or not sources outside of Christianity came up with it first. It just isn't a good argument to use. That is my only point.

But the Bible doesn't mention it, that's my point. People already have that idea and they come to the text of Scripture already believing it. Then they see certain passages and interpret them based on this idea that they brought to the text. It's inferred, not taught.

Indeed, it is. How are spirits different from people, exactly?

People are mortal flesh beings spirits are not.

 

[Politico]

According the the Scriptures death is non existence.

No.

 

[Butch5]

No.

Yes, it is.

34 My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the LORD.
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
(Ps. 104:34-35 KJV)

12 Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.
13 O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more.
(Ps. 39:12-13 KJV)

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. (Ps. 37:9-10 KJV)

20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Ps. 37:20 KJV)

 

[Politico]

As I said the first time. Your argument is illogical. Someone who doesn't exist isn't subject to sin, therefore, they cannot be freed from sin.

The argument, "Someone who doesn't exist isn't subject to sin, therefore, they cannot be freed from sin" is true, I believe, but it does not argue for or against annihilation; it presumes the reality of annihilation, and makes a claim based on that presumption.

 

[FreeGrace]

So a prisoner is released from prison “for a short time”, and you see no reason for him to return??? I thought you yield to Scripture.

Why return to just a holding cell, when final judgment is clearly for eternity? And nowhere does Scripture equate torments with the lof.

 

[FreeGrace]

jehovah's witnesses say they are interpreting hell right too. Sorry if I ask for further validation from qualified sources, which you obviously have none.

I'm just sorry that quoting from the Bible doesn't count as a qualified source.

 

[FreeGrace]

here is an actual theologian who believes that Hell composes of tarturus, the lake of fire, and the abyss, further connection could be added to paradise and torments.

so technically there is five compartments of hell. Freegrace does not believe the lake of fire is not part of hell and believes in annihilation: which is obviously wrong.

What is wrong here is your wildly incorrect claim that I believe in annihilation. That is ridiculous. Apparently you've not read any of my posts to chessman and others about it. I DENY annihilation. [edited]

 

[FreeGrace]

“Everlasting” destruction would not be annihilation, which only takes an instant and is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence.

I AGREE that those in the lof will experience eternal torment. Destruction, if you prefer. chessman believes unbeliever souls will cease to exist, which I reject.

The cars in a junkyard have been destroyed, but they are not annihilated. They are simply beyond repair or unredeemable. So are the people in hell."

I reject annihilation of the soul.