The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[Jim Parker]

There is nothing in the word psuchē itself that even remotely implies a conscious entity that is able to survive the death of the body and hence be immortal. In no instance of its use in the Bible does psuchē refer to a conscious entity able to exist apart from the body. The Bible knows nothing of a living, conscious soul that, supposedly, survives the body.

That's not what the scripture says.
It says that both men died. (Luke 16:22)
It says that both men (as well as Abraham) were conscious and aware AFTER death. (Luke 16:23-25)
So you can refer to passive and active voices all you want but JESUS said:
(1) they were both dead.
(2) they were still conscious.
(3) The rich man felt the torment of flames.
(4) Lazarus felt comfort.
(5) both Abraham and the rich man were able to communicate.

So you go with with the meaning of the word psuche and I'll go with what Jesus said.

Maybe I spoke too soon about "Bible Ask" if they are pushing the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness annihilation heresy.

They seemed pretty good. Wolves in sheep's clothing? Maybe?

iakov the fool

 

[Papyrus_dust]

That's not what the scripture says.
It says that both men died. (Luke 16:22)
It says that both men (as well as Abraham) were conscious and aware AFTER death. (Luke 16:23-25)
So you can refer to passive and active voices all you want but JESUS said:
(1) they were both dead.
(2) they were still conscious.
(3) The rich man felt the torment of flames.
(4) Lazarus felt comfort.
(5) both Abraham and the rich man were able to communicate.

So you go with with the meaning of the word psuche and I'll go with what Jesus said.

Maybe I spoke too soon about "Bible Ask" if they are pushing the 7th Day Adventist/Jehovah's Witness annihilation heresy.

They seemed pretty good. Wolves in sheep's clothing? Maybe?

iakov the fool

I hope I never understand how sharing together about scripture can cause some to become volatile and offensive .

I respect that the new testament was written in Greek, the source of the word soul in Greek as, Psuchē.
Being the scripture in question is addressed through multiple sources, focusing prejudice against one, as someone else attempted , does not negate Bible Ask's legitimacy. Nor the scriptures themselves.

Furthermore and lastly, "If" what is proffered as slander against Bible Ask, says anything at all when the author of said slander admits firstly to not knowing the grounding denomination of Bible Ask , and still afford the offense, has any relevancy to this thread at all, it would be due to its content that which is meant to impart a personal attack against those members here who recite scripture that would appear to support Biblical annihilation theory.

 

[Papa Zoom]

How about just accepting what Scripture says, making sure the supposed meaning isn't refuted by other very clear verses to the contrary?

And a human being is doing that. I've brought this up many times. A fallible human being is inferring meaning. I'm simply pointing out the obvious: Why is your interpretation superior to another's? Because of the HS? This is the default position of many. I trust the HS, but I don't trust our ability to get it right. We are a HUGE part of the equation. There are competing views on many things, Hell being no exception. I have a book, written by 4 well-credentialed Biblical scholars, who all hold to a different view on the nature of Hell. And you're answer would be to just accept Scripture? That's what they are claiming to do.

Then we should just quit discussing altogether.

Exactly my point. And since we are discussing, we ought to start from the premise that we are fallible and could be wrong, in spite of any effort on the HS's part.

I'll give an example of how people are not discerning regarding their view.
Loss of salvation view cannot explain the clear words of Jesus when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. The LOS view claims those who have received eternal life CAN perish. dwIn direct conflict with the words of Jesus.

How is that discerning. There is a verse that directly refutes their view, yet they remain stedfast in their claim that eternal life can be lost even though Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

They have changed "shall never" to "may" or "can". Total lack of discernment.

Yes and both sides claim they have the HS and all of Scripture on their side. Which is why we ought to take a humble position on disputed topics. I believe I'm in agreement with your position on OSAS.

As for Hell: We don't know.
What is the lake of fire? Is it an actual place or thing? Do people suffer forever (which would mean that God would deliberately create their bodies so they could feel pain, suffer horribly, and not die. Sounds sadistic to me.
It doesn't matter what hell is. It's not a pleasant place. It won't be a picnic. But whatever it is, it's a place that a loving God created for His Holy purpose. Whatever Hell is, it's rooted in God's love since God is Love. All God's actions are rooted in love.

 

[Politico]

I am a little confused. If everyone, literally everyone in the whole planet has equal opportunity to
succeed in their Maker, and sin does not have to be life destroying, why evangelise or preach?
Those who choose to follow God without witnessing apparently will do so according to you or not
without the need for us as believers to be involved.

Sorry for not being clearer. I said "sin committed in ignorance," not all sin. That is, God will not expect us to fulfill some command if we are ignorant of that command. It is still sin requiring blood Atonement (4:13-27), but it is not a life destroying sin or a sin "unto death." Scripture describes different kinds of sins:

1-"Willful" transgression of a known law: Some suggest Adam's transgression, but I do not agree with that example, since Adam died spiritually. However, there can be an element of willfulness (knowing) with certain sins, I believe, that does not necessarily correlate to spiritual death, unlike no. 4 below.

2-Sin of deception: Eve's transgression (2 Cor. 11:3; 1Tim. 2:14). This was suggested by some Bible teacher. However, I don't claim to fully understand all the distinctives here as compared to other types of sins.

3-Sin of ignorance: For example, a guilty party being unaware of sin (Lev. 4:13-27; also includes “unintentional sins”).

4-Presumptuous sin: also called “high handed” or “defiant” sin as described in Num. 15:30. (This type of sin apparently has the characteristics of: refusing to be guided by the Lord, even though one is aware of God’s will and one has the capacity to do God’s will; refusing to hear the word of the lord; pre-meditation; unequivocal rebellion.) A related verse: Hebrews 10:26. Possibly also 1John 5:16.

 

[Jim Parker]

I respect that the new testament was written in Greek,

Koine Greek, to be precise; the Greek of the market place. (Or as my Greek Prof used to say, "I seen him when he done it." Greek.)
It is not a precise language and those who try to prove a meaning by grammar err in the attempt. Koine Greek is just no0t that precise.

The issue is not about what "Psuche" means.
It's about what the scripture says.
> It says both men dies.
> And it says that, after they dies, they were still conscious and even able to communicate.
> Since their bodies are no longer functioning and have been buried and are rotting in their graves, it must be an incorporeal part of them that is still conscious and aware.
> That leaves the soul.
And that is the simplest and clearest meaning. Simplest and clearest trumps "what tense is this" every time. IMHO.

But, If "Bible Ask" promotes the annihilation of the body and soul of the wicked dead then they promote a heresy.
They seemed OK on the trinity.

I hope I never understand how sharing together about scripture can cause some to become volatile and offensive .

I'm sorry that was your experience.
Unfortunately, misreading of people's intentions in posts happens a lot in forums since we are not able to hear tone of voice or observe body language.
I was trying to be clear in my opinion so as not to be misinterpreted.
Oh well! I tried!

iakov the fool

 

[n2thelight]

The first death is the passing of the Spirit, either into the presence of Jesus or into Hell to await the Great White Throne Judgment. The First Death is discussed in Rev 20:14, 20:6, 1Cor 15:50-55 and 2Thes 4:13-17.

The thing most folks miss is that we are created in the image of our Creator/God and He is an unseen Spirit that is without Beginning and without End. We have a beginning but our Spirits have no end and will reside with God or will suffer the Lake of Fire for Eternity.

Why do people keep saying God is an unseen spirit?Did He not allow Mosses to see Him,and were we not made in His image?

Show me one verse which states the spirit has no end...

 

[n2thelight]

Satan in revelation is thrown in the lake of fire for a thousand years and let loose.

No he's not....

 

[n2thelight]

“Everlasting” destruction would not be annihilation, which only takes an instant and is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence. The cars in a junkyard have been destroyed, but they are not annihilated. They are simply beyond repair or unredeemable. So are the people in hell."

Norman Geisler: Encyclopedia of Apologetics, 1999 Baker books

Everlasting destruction simply means there's no coming back,meaning you are dead forever.

 

[n2thelight]

Show me one verse in scripture that says the soul is immortal

 

[n2thelight]

Scripture says the soul shall die,not be seperated from God......

The Bible is very clear that the wicked do Not suffer for ever and ever and ever. In the Bible we repeatedly see that the wicked are destroyed. They will perish, they will be burned up until they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, they will be no more, they will cease to exist, etc. look at the Biblical texts below:

1. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perishbut have everlasting life. John 3:16

One of my favorite Bible texts about the love of God. Nowhere in that text do we have the idea that the alternatives are to live forever in Heaven or to live forever in Hell. No, the real alternatives are to perish or to have eternal, everlasting life.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The consequence for sin is death, not burning forever. God's gift is eternal life, which is very different from the penalty of sin.

As we look at more verses, we can see that the Bible is consistent with itself.

1. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
2. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
3. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

1. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20.

1. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38.

The wicked will be no more, they will cease to exist, they will perish, they will vanish away. In fact, verse 38 says they will all be destroyed together, in one place, at one time; But the meek, those who wait on the LORD, will inherit the earth and live forever.

1. As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

Again, the wicked will perish like smoke in the presence of God. In the fire they will not burn forever, Instead, they will perish like wax in the fire. This fire is in the presence of God.

1. May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

The wicked will be consumed from the earth and be no more. There will be nothing left of the wicked.

1. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3.

Malachi makes it extremely clear. The wicked will be stubble. They will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. In addition we see again that it will happen all at once: Because the Lord says that the day is coming when the wicked will be burnt up, they will be stubble. And we find that this burning has an end because later on God promises that we will trample the wicked since they will be ashes under our feet. He will not keep them burning forever, but He will finish this work. God will burn them up.

1. Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

Isaiah also says the wicked will be stubble. In addition, he says that they will not be able to escape from the fire and the fire will do its job. When it is finished burning, their will not even be a coal or a fire to be warmed up with. The wicked will be entirely consumed by the fire! They will be burned up. So the ashes will be cold for there will not be a fire to sit next to, nor even a warm coal.

1. The LORD preserves all who love Hims, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

All the wicked will be destroyed. They will not survive.

1. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.

The fire will devour them and they will be no more.

1. Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

1. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

God owns all souls, so He has the right to do what He wants with His people. He has declared that the soul who sins, that person will die, and it will be as though they had never been.

1. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
2. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16.

The destruction of the wicked will be so complete that it will be as though they had never existed before.


One cannot be alive and dead at the same time.

 

[JohnDB]

Isaiah 57

Seems to be an answer to this.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Scripture says the soul shall die,not be seperated from God......

The Bible is very clear that the wicked do Not suffer for ever and ever and ever. In the Bible we repeatedly see that the wicked are destroyed. They will perish, they will be burned up until they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, they will be no more, they will cease to exist, etc. look at the Biblical texts below:

1. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perishbut have everlasting life. John 3:16

One of my favorite Bible texts about the love of God. Nowhere in that text do we have the idea that the alternatives are to live forever in Heaven or to live forever in Hell. No, the real alternatives are to perish or to have eternal, everlasting life.

1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

The consequence for sin is death, not burning forever. God's gift is eternal life, which is very different from the penalty of sin.

As we look at more verses, we can see that the Bible is consistent with itself.

1. For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
2. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
3. But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

1. But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20.

1. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38.

The wicked will be no more, they will cease to exist, they will perish, they will vanish away. In fact, verse 38 says they will all be destroyed together, in one place, at one time; But the meek, those who wait on the LORD, will inherit the earth and live forever.

1. As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

Again, the wicked will perish like smoke in the presence of God. In the fire they will not burn forever, Instead, they will perish like wax in the fire. This fire is in the presence of God.

1. May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

The wicked will be consumed from the earth and be no more. There will be nothing left of the wicked.

1. For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, Says the LORD of hosts, That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3.

Malachi makes it extremely clear. The wicked will be stubble. They will be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous. In addition we see again that it will happen all at once: Because the Lord says that the day is coming when the wicked will be burnt up, they will be stubble. And we find that this burning has an end because later on God promises that we will trample the wicked since they will be ashes under our feet. He will not keep them burning forever, but He will finish this work. God will burn them up.

1. Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

Isaiah also says the wicked will be stubble. In addition, he says that they will not be able to escape from the fire and the fire will do its job. When it is finished burning, their will not even be a coal or a fire to be warmed up with. The wicked will be entirely consumed by the fire! They will be burned up. So the ashes will be cold for there will not be a fire to sit next to, nor even a warm coal.

1. The LORD preserves all who love Hims, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

All the wicked will be destroyed. They will not survive.

1. You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them. Psalm 21:9.

The fire will devour them and they will be no more.

1. Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

1. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:4, 20.

God owns all souls, so He has the right to do what He wants with His people. He has declared that the soul who sins, that person will die, and it will be as though they had never been.

1. For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.
2. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16.

The destruction of the wicked will be so complete that it will be as though they had never existed before.


One cannot be alive and dead at the same time.

You are to be commended, you put in the effort. But you are wrong. Matt 18:8,, 25'46, 13:42 must be considered and then reconciled, there is no.cobflic5 in scripture.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Isaiah 57

Seems to be an answer to this.

Truly so, for there should not be any peace for they that have refused to believe the truth. Matthew 7:20-23 makes it very clear what will happen, when folks take your chapter in Isaiah and my passage in Matthew and so many others. But these New Age Preachers are chopping the scriptures into pieces that are not connected. On other forums I have even been informed that all a man needs to live the Christian Life is to study Beatitudes. Things are getting nutty!

 

[chessman]

Going back to the Beast and the False Prophet, It's likely that these are both demon possessed men. The Beast is for sure. Consider this short explanation .

The Dragon, The Beast and The False Prophet are three visionaries within John’s visions recorded in Revelation. It’s likely they represent what John told us they represent.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT

They represent Satan and his demons in reality. And I’m not just making this up, John says it to be the case.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
A reference to believers and unbelievers. If one ceases to exist, there is no way they can experience anything, much less everlasting contempt. One has to exist in order to experience contempt. The verse is meaningless if souls cease to exist."

Let me start out by saying that the passages don't stated what you're claiming. You're trying to reason your position from these passages. There are passages of Scripture that state plainly that the dead, have no thoughts, cannot praise God, know nothing, etc.

The Bible refutes your thoughts about the dead having no thoughts.

Jesus gave us an account of 2 men who died, went to where all souls went after death and even told us what one of them SAID. Luke 16

And don't forget Saul's seance and conversation with Samuel. They were TALKING.

So, you're trying to argue against stated passages with inferences you're drawing from these passages. Having said that I'll address this passage. It says some will be raised to shame and everlasting contempt. It doesn't say they will experience contempt everlastingly.

In fact, that's what "everlasting contempt" means: expereince contempt forever. Simply denying a meaning doesn't make it so.

They held in contempt by God and He is everlasting.

That clearly is NOT what the verse said.

Firstly what is their worm?

Doesn't matter.

Even so it says their worm doesn't die. It doesn't say they never die.

Keep in mind that it's THEIR worm. Not just some or a worm. If it's THEIRS, and it is, then it's part of them. Your reasoning is unreasonable.

 

[FreeGrace]

And a human being is doing that. I've brought this up many times. A fallible human being is inferring meaning. I'm simply pointing out the obvious: Why is your interpretation superior to another's? Because of the HS? This is the default position of many. I trust the HS, but I don't trust our ability to get it right. We are a HUGE part of the equation. There are competing views on many things, Hell being no exception. I have a book, written by 4 well-credentialed Biblical scholars, who all hold to a different view on the nature of Hell. And you're answer would be to just accept Scripture? That's what they are claiming to do.

This kinda sounds like why bother with even trying to understand Scripture, if "4 well-credentialed biblical scholars" can't agree.

I don't think being "credentialed" is the point. It's obvious that at least 3 of them got it wrong, maybe even all of them. Of these 4 different views on the nature of hell, were all of them completely consistent with all the rest of Scripture. I suspect not.

btw, the main problem is with the English word 'hell'. That word doesn't exist in the Greek. Gehenna, a Greek word, is translated as hell, just as Hades is. So the problem is knowing what the Greek is referring to.

Exactly my point. And since we are discussing, we ought to start from the premise that we are fallible and could be wrong, in spite of any effort on the HS's part.

I fully agree.

Yes and both sides claim they have the HS and all of Scripture on their side. Which is why we ought to take a humble position on disputed topics. I believe I'm in agreement with your position on OSAS.

As for Hell: We don't know.
What is the lake of fire? Is it an actual place or thing? Do people suffer forever (which would mean that God would deliberately create their bodies so they could feel pain, suffer horribly, and not die. Sounds sadistic to me.
It doesn't matter what hell is. It's not a pleasant place. It won't be a picnic. But whatever it is, it's a place that a loving God created for His Holy purpose. Whatever Hell is, it's rooted in God's love since God is Love. All God's actions are rooted in love.

Since 'hell' is a poor translation when applied to different places, we need to stick with Greek words.

The fact is that the Bible does define the lake of fire. The final "residence" of all unbelievers and all fallen angels. And it's eternal.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Everlasting destruction simply means there's no coming back,meaning you are dead forever.

Like I said, the car in the junkyard is destroyed but it still exists.

 

[godsquadgeek]

No he's not....

He is thrown in hell, which the lake of fire is part of hell as well.

 

[FreeGrace]

He is thrown in hell, which the lake of fire is part of hell as well.

Do you believe that Hades, Gehenna and the lake of fire are all the same place?

 

[godsquadgeek]

Do you believe that Hades, Gehenna and the lake of fire are all the same place?

They are all various places of hell, but I see you only reply to posts that are convenient for you, I replied to three of your posts without answers.