Bible Study The Law in Romans

[JLB]

Pretty sure the quotes in bold/black are accurate. Taken from the KJV that's exactly what it says:

-"sin is of the devil"- Not sin ARE as your alt. proposes.

Even the most "liberal" rendering, the NIV says essentially the same:

-"what is sinful is of the devil-"

And WHO has sinned from the begging? Uh, yeah. The devil.

Since all have sin, again, the math just ain't all that hard. I'd reckon that just about every believer has figured out that sin is demonic by nature.

Yes the quote in bold is accurate and from the bible.

It mean just what it says.



7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:7-8

This is a contrast of those who practice righteousness,


A person who practices righteousness, is righteous.

A person who practices sin, is of the devil.

He who sins is of the devil.

The devil himself sinned, as sin affected him, just as it affects humans.

The person who practices righteousness has the same flesh body as the person who practices sin.

This scripture does not say that the devil dwells in the flesh.

This scripture does not say sin is of the devil.

This scripture states that the person who sins is of the devil.

Read it for yourself... He who sins is of the devil.

Not everyone has been given a messenger of Satan to buffet them, this was unique to Paul, because of the abundance of his revelations.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If I judge myself according to the letter of the Law, like the self-righteous Pharisee, I deceive myself into thinking I have the power to resist those sins. But if I judge myself according to the real meaning of the Law, such as Jesus described in Matthew 5:17-48, I discover I really have no power to keep the Law. I find myself too often breaking the Law in my thoughts. And my breaking any one command, not just in letter but in spirit, makes me guilty of breaking the whole Law (James 2:10).

The Pharisee and the rich man were able to keep the letter of the Law ...no not perfectly, but surprisingly Jesus didn't make an issue of it. To the rich man, He said he still lacked something else. Even as a Pharisee, Paul was able to keep the the Law "blamelessly", and yet this was not enough. As Jesus said, your righteousness has to exceed the letter-of-the-Law righteousness of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

The Holy Spirit was given to enable us to overcome sin, because we don't have the strength in ourselves. I know from experience that I sin much more when I try to keep the Law and avoid sin, rather than walk in the Spirit. As such, I'd rather let Him do His work in me so that I am His workmanship and He gets the glory, rather than me saying "God, I got this" and trying to get the glory.

Thank you for sharing Andy.

So now that we have been set free from the law of sin and death, do you think you have power to resist murdering of lying, or stealing or adultery?

Yes?

No?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If we make this "miraculous" discovery, that the "cause" is the tempter, we understand the conflict, and that there is no remedy >for the tempter< operating in the flesh.

The cause is sin dwelling in our flesh.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:23-8:2


The law of sin is what is in our flesh.

 

[jocor]

That's the entire fulcrum point of the Gospel. And "whom" we are saved from. Mankind is universally a "slave of Satan" in our minds and hearts, which results in sin.

Here's the shortlist: Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 3:8



The picture of Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables is to show that Satan (and his own) are overlapped with(in) the heart of mankind. There are in fact TWO parties present within what appears to a flesh sight, only an individual. Paul shows this same scriptural fact upon himself in Romans 7, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Then lays that identical understanding universally upon mankind in Romans 9 and in every teaching about sin. Paul lays the same understanding upon Israel, specifically again in the beginning of Romans 9, again in Romans 11:8, again in 2 Cor. 3:14. Jesus showed this identical fact in thousands of cases in the Gospel. In fact this scriptural reality is so entirely obvious, openly revealed and utterly transparently exposed it's nothing less than factual internal blinding in any reader that keeps them from seeing it.

Which CONFIRMS the reality of the blinding and the reality of the Gospel itself.



That I will acknowledge. Satan had nothing "in" Him because He was sinless in thought, Word and Deed. None of us can make that same claim. Jesus tells us that "evil" comes from within, and yes, we all still have that evil infection in our minds. Prior to salvation we didn't know it or see it, that our sin is in fact of the devil who blinds our minds/hearts. After salvation we do see it (or should if we're paying attentions) and are to reign OVER internal temptations and lusts in the flesh, but they are still there, internally, and they are still sourced to the tempter.



Paul denies that's the case for himself in 2 Cor. 12:7 and in many other citings. John makes the identical case in 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:8. Again, I'm only surprised that believers can't pinpoint this matter and are led to "insulate" themselves. I do mean they are "led" in this into denial. The flesh is vile because Satan and his minions through the avenue of temptations and innumerable lusts do have access to our flesh internally, in lusts and temptations. This is also why the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, because THEY are contrary to the Spirit.

They are what we are "saved" and divided from because we are (at least supposed to) see that temptations are in fact demonic, and we RESIST those things of the DEVIL, internally. We are released from "THEIR" flesh hold by Spiritual Sight. The flesh is actually where their "kingdom" resides. And their power comes from the law, whereby they "enter" man's heart to deceive and to blind.

As it pertains to LAW, the LAW was given precisely to reveal sin, which is of the devil. The devil is also moved into action "in man" where the Word is sown and the LAW is also The Word. That is why no one is technically legal and in fact can't be. Because it's not a question of just a singular person involved with Law. The tempter is also moved in man, by the law, to resist. The math here is not hard to fathom. Sin is of the devil. The devil resists the law in man. The law therefore gives RESISTING strength to the DEVIL "in man."

In salvation, we, by SIGHT of this internal problem, are called to RESIST our enemies who "tempt" us internally. We are not called to be 'their slave.' But it is blindness to claim that "they" are or can be "legal" in any of us. And that is where legalists go completely off the scriptural rails. The contrariness of the flesh remains with all of us to deal with and to reign over. Gal. 5:17, Romans 6:12, Eph. 6:11-13

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

In lying hypocrisy, our minds become "seared shut" to this internal reality. 1 Tim. 4:2

Not one reference that you posted says Satan lives in believers and tempts them from within. You are simply reading that into those texts. When you show me a verse that teaches without a doubt that Satan lives in believers, perhaps I'll spend more time replying.

 

[jocor]

Trying to keep the Law implies work on our part... effort to gain or maintain a right standing before God.

Work? Yes. Obeying Yahweh's laws are among the good works we were ordained to walk in (Eph 2:10).

The epistle to the Galatians must be understood as written, not to non-believers, but to believers - and hence to us. Paul was not telling them how to be saved, but how they were to live after they were saved. The Galatians had already received the true gospel (Galatians 1:9, 4:9) and the Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2). But they were seeking to obey the Law rather than submit to the Spirit. This is why he asked if they were so foolish. The put themselves under a curse by seeking to obey the Law (Galatians 3:10).

The Galatians were NOT seeking to merely obey the Law. They were seeking to be justified by it. Every believer MUST obey Yahweh's laws, not by their flesh, but through the help of the indwelling Spirit. Not to be justified by it or saved by it, but as a fruit of one's salvation.

The only way a Christian can fulfill the requirements of the Law is not by law-keeping, but by walking in the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2-4). This is not anti-nomianism, but pneuma-nomianism - the law of the Spirit of life where He works through us to do His good works, not our 'good' works. Like justification, sanctification is the work of God. ... Its requirements are only met by those who walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:4), not by those who seek to keep the Law.

When the Holy Spirit works through us to obey the Law, it IS "law-keeping". The problem lies in the motive for law-keeping.

Look at Paul who used to follow the Law “blamelessly” before he was saved (Philippians 3:6). After he was saved he didn’t use his salvation as an opportunity to keep the Law more perfectly. Instead, he counted law-keeping a total “loss”. This is what he meant when he called the Galatians (and us) to “be as I am; for I am as you are.”

Paul continued obeying Yahweh's laws after his conversion. Paul never "lost" the Law. The Law was firmly established in his life through faith (Rom 3:31).

Also, according to Romans 7:1-4, it would be spiritual adultery to go back to the Law now that we are Christ's.

If you continue reading the ensuing verses, Paul makes it clear that he obeys the Law, not through the flesh, but through the Spirit.
The spiritual adultery is committed when the believer turns from being justified by his new husband in order to be justified by the Law. At that point, Messiah becomes of no effect unto him, but he is fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).

 

[smaller]

Not one reference that you posted says Satan lives in believers and tempts them from within.

Temptation and lust transpires within. That's all there really is to the matter.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

You are simply reading that into those texts. When you show me a verse that teaches without a doubt that Satan lives in believers, perhaps I'll spend more time replying.

The scriptural math is quite unavoidable. Sin is demonic and stems from the internal evil of temptations, lusts, coveteousness, etc. just as Jesus disclosed here:

Mark 4:15, showing, openly Satan's entry into the heart to BREAK the law in resistance to it, IN man.

 

[jocor]

Temptation and lust transpires within. That's all there really is to the matter.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

I totally agree that temptation and lust transpire within, but temptation and lust are not Satan. Satan tempts us from the outside.

The scriptural math is quite unavoidable. Sin is demonic and stems from the internal evil of temptations, lusts, coveteousness, etc. just as Jesus disclosed here:

Mark 4:15, showing, openly Satan's entry into the heart to BREAK the law in resistance to it, IN man.

In our day, Mark 4:15 would be fulfilled when such as person hears, but then Satan starts to put things before him like movies, sports, books, women, false teachings, lies, etc., that take their mind and heart off of what they heard to the point where it is no longer important or remembered. It is NOT fulfilled by Satan entering into a believer and working to remove the seeds.

 

[smaller]

I totally agree that temptation and lust transpire within, but temptation and lust are not Satan. Satan tempts us from the outside.

If Paul had a messenger of Satan "in" his own flesh, it's unlikely anyone else could consider themselves exempt. 2 Cor. 12:7. He also identified that "temptation" was in fact in his own flesh. Gal. 4:14.

Paul pretty well sums up the matters in Romans 9:18-23 when identifying that there are two vessels in one lump he termed "me." And the sight of himself in 2 Cor. 12:7 also shows the same thing.

Ultimately, the lesson learned in all these things is that the tempter who operates through the flesh can't be legally obedient, and therefore the flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit, regardless. Gal. 5:17. Claiming legality upon contrariness is disingenuous. Claiming faithfulness to contrariness is, likewise.

I might also observe that any believer who understands and has experienced "thought temptations" being of the tempter and not of themselves will be able to instantly recognize these facts of scripture. But equally sure, is that believers are assuredly also blinded to same by that same worker/working.

 

[smaller]

I might observe in all these things that the law, if it is "against" sinners, and the devil is a sinner, then the law is for us in this regards:

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath:

 

[jocor]

If Paul had a messenger of Satan "in" his own flesh, it's unlikely anyone else could consider themselves exempt. 2 Cor. 12:7. He also identified that "temptation" was in fact in his own flesh. Gal. 4:14.

Gal 4:13-14 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Messiah Yeshua.​

The Galatians did not despise or reject Paul's infirmity. It was something external that they could see and choose to despise and reject him because of it. It was not something they could not see, ie; like Satan dwelling in Paul causing his temptation/infirmity/thorn.

 

[jocor]

I might observe in all these things that the law, if it is "against" sinners, and the devil is a sinner, then the law is for us in this regards:

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath:

Do not divorce verse 15 from its context. When Paul speaks of the Law in this chapter, he is referring to the Law as a means of justification (vss.2 & 5). When one seeks to be justified by the Law, it will indeed work wrath. When one is justified by faith, his faith establishes the Law (makes it stand firm - Rom 3:31). His faith moves him to obey the Law out of love through the indwelling Spirit.

 

[smaller]

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

The question is, "how" was the above achieved?

Jesus provides that answer, in Mark 4:15

Paul provides the identical answer in Acts 26:18 and 2 Cor. 4:4 among many others.

Where the LAW is sown, Satan enters the heart, to blind, to resist, to tempt and to sin, and ultimately, to destroy and kill.

Paul shows that in "the lump" he termed "me" there are two vessels in Romans 9:18-24

Paul also shows us that "we" as believers are to "purge" ourselves from that other vessel in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Well, where is the other vessel in Romans 9:18-24? In the lump termed "me."

We don't "resist" Satan as an external entity, but an internal enemy who is lawless and is so in response to the LAW.

IF the law brings wrath. It does. And IF Satan is due wrath. Satan is, then, on this basis the LAW is our ally. The "uncomfortable' portion of the equations arise when we see the "location" of sin, of temptations, of lust, of things of the devil are in fact "in our own flesh."

That's when a believer get's their personal, AHA moment.

 

[smaller]

Do not divorce verse 15 from its context. When Paul speaks of the Law in this chapter, he is referring to the Law as a means of justification (vss.2 & 5). When one seeks to be justified by the Law, it will indeed work wrath. When one is justified by faith, his faith establishes the Law (makes it stand firm - Rom 3:31). His faith moves him to obey the Law out of love through the indwelling Spirit.

There is no justification available to that which is contrary to the Spirit, as Paul notes in Gal. 5:17. It simply can not be done. The reason "why" that is scriptures also address, completely. It is because there is the working of our spiritual adversary, in the flesh.

It is not difficult to perceive internal temptations as a foreign influence, often coming out of nowhere, internally. I'd say it would be quite odd for a believer not to recognize this activity and it's source as internal, and that being of "the tempter."

 

[jocor]

Paul shows that in "the lump" he termed "me" there are two vessels in Romans 9:18-24

Paul also shows us that "we" as believers are to "purge" ourselves from that other vessel in 2 Tim. 2:20-21. Well, where is the other vessel in Romans 9:18-24? In the lump termed "me."

Are you actually trying to teach us that Romans 9:21 means the Creator made two vessels (Paul and Satan) and put them into the body of Paul??

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
​

A potter can take a lump of clay and make two DIFFERENT vessels out of that one lump. The Creator can and did do the same. Abel was a vessel of honor and Cain a vessel of dishonor. Both were made from the same "lump" of creative material.

Concerning 2 Tim 2:20-21, I included the context below.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Messiah depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
​

The great "house" does not refer in individual believers that have vessels of honor and dishonor within them. It refers to the "House of Elohim (God)" wherein are vessels of honor such as Paul and vessels of dishonor such as Hymenaeus and Philetus. We are to corporately purge the House of Elohim of such men and individually purge them from our lives.

 

[smaller]

Are you actually trying to teach us that Romans 9:21 means the Creator made two vessels (Paul and Satan) and put them into the body of Paul??

Did Jesus provide thousands of examples of this in the Gospels? A single man had a legion of demons "in" him. And certainly not the only example of this overlap between man and devil just as Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 4:4 show. Mark 4:15 alone proves, scripturally, that 2 Cor. 4:4 is a fact and they are identical in their sights of this matter. Now, if this IS true, how many occupants are seen? 2. Just as Romans 9:18-24 show. Only ONE of those vessels receives Divine Mercy. The other, never. Paul again gives an identical example for believers in 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

As stated prior, the only surprise in these equations is that they are NOT seen. And that alone is an open testimony to the fact of internal blinding going on in the readers by that other party.

 

[jocor]

Did Jesus provide thousands of examples of this in the Gospels? A single man had a legion of demons "in" him. And certainly not the only example of this overlap between man and devil just as Mark 4:15, 2 Cor. 4:4 show. Mark 4:15 alone proves, scripturally, that 2 Cor. 4:4 is a fact and they are identical in their sights of this matter. Now, if this IS true, how many occupants are seen? 2. Just as Romans 9:18-24 show. Only ONE of those vessels receives Divine Mercy. The other, never. Paul again gives an identical example for believers in 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

As stated prior, the only surprise in these equations is that they are NOT seen. And that alone is an open testimony to the fact of internal blinding going on in the readers by that other party.

I have no problem believing Satan and demons can reside inside a person that does NOT have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They can enter a person very early in life. However, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe everyone is demon possessed even if they are born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, and have become a new creature in Messiah Yeshua! Since everyone is tempted, you believe the tempter is IN everyone (everyone is Satan or demon possessed).

 

[JLB]

The great "house" does not refer in individual believers that have vessels of honor and dishonor within them.

He has been shown this very truth over and over, and refuses to acknowledge it.


JLB

 

[smaller]

I have no problem believing Satan and demons can reside inside a person that does NOT have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Sin indwells all of "our" flesh. Romans 7:17-21. The flesh is contrary to the Spirit (Gal. 5:17) and thusly also contrary to the Law. We can't say we have (present tense application) no sin and be in truth. 1 John 1:8. Satan resists or rebels against God's Words, Mark 4:15. and all the seed parables. Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

An Apostle shows us this fact on himself, having a messenger of Satan in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7.

We also know that the Law was meant to bring the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20. That the Law was meant to make sin utterly sinful. Romans 7:13. That the Law empowers or strengthens sin. 1 Cor. 15:56.

I might even say that by upholding the Law, the intentions of God are invoked, unto eventual wrath for the real culprits of this fallen world, the devil and his messengers.

They can enter a person very early in life. However, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe everyone is demon possessed even if they are born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, and have become a new creature in Messiah Yeshua! Since everyone is tempted, you believe the tempter is IN everyone (everyone is Satan or demon possessed).

If we took Paul's principle, that the flesh is contrary to the Spirit. It is! Without the fulcrum of judgments for the devil and his messengers who operate in the flesh through lust and temptations, then the flesh itself would have to be "evil" and that, is a gnostic understanding. That "material" is evil. It isn't.

The spiritual adversary of man has always been within the heart. When we are saved, the tables are turned. We reign "over" our adversary, but we are not entirely released from the battle which transpires in our own contrary flesh.

Believers can claim anything they please. The flesh remains contrary to the Spirit. The understandings of Law, particularly as laid out by Paul in Romans shows us exactly why that is. Evil is present within us, just it was present within Paul. Romans 7:21.

 

[smaller]

He has been shown this very truth over and over, and refuses to acknowledge it.

JLB

IF what Paul said is true for believers in 2 Tim. 2:20-21, we are always under the obligation to purge "ourselves" individually from the vessel of dishonor. That is "us" individually resisting the temptations and lusts of the devil in our own flesh. Which remains as a contrary condition of the flesh, after salvation, regardless.

Believers can claim they are obedient, ONLY if they completely disregard the factual contrariness of their own flesh. Which would be a basic lie. Whatever believers do, they do so just as Paul did. With evil present within them. Romans 7:21. And that knowledge was brought to Paul courtesy of the exposure of the LAW and what it did in his own mind. Romans 7:7-13.

I thank God we had at least one honest Apostle who was led to disclose these matters, personally. About the Law and the resistance in the flesh, which remains contrary.

There is no obedient flesh, period. It is vile because of sin indwelling the flesh in lusts and temptations. And those are courtesy of the tempter who "resists" the LAW and does so in man, universally.

 

[AndyBern]

A real born-from-above Christian cannot have Satan abiding in him. He can be deceived and influenced by Satan by appealing to the fleshly nature, but Satan cannot abide in him because the Holy Spirit now lives in him. He is no longer a slave to Satan, but practically speaking he is a slave to his fleshly desires if he doesn't walk in submission to the Holy Spirit.