Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[Nathan]

I want to tell you Nathan how it is I happened to come to this site.

A buch of people that bragged of having left this site gathered at another Bible chat site I was on. They dog this site left and right in their posts on that site.

They did not like what I had to say so they worked together to manufacture lies against me and elicit the administrator to ban me.

I spoke no different there than I do here.

The way they twisted my words and presented me as if saying other than what I had said was extremely evident. But I was one and they were many complaining to have me stoned.

Well, to make a long story short, I thought to myself, "Maybe I should go to the site that they so frequently speak bad about."

I figured right that they had done toward this site among themselves what they were doing to me.

And for Rockies sake, No Cornelius was not one of them.

But I am ever so glad they drove me to come here. I would not have known how to reach this site but for their bad mouthing it.

Interesting. This is the only site I 'go' too. When I first joined the first day I visited two different sites. This one and one I have since forgotten. I found a lot of believers on here and decided it was a genuine place to be. I have never been on a site and was happy to start using my gift of counseling. Little did I know that I would be counseled more than I probably do for others. It truly has been one of those experiences where you give and give, but can never give out more than you receive.

That has convinced me that this is a wonderful place to be and right where God wants me. When you find that kind of refreshing drink, you have no need in looking elsewhere.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences elsewhere. I sometimes contemplate it. How we are in this "internet" age now. Used to, when people were feeling led of the Spirit, the draw from God, they would go to the local "gathering" of believers. I truly believe this is one of the end time signs that is announcing His return. Most local gatherings are sadly like that site you go too. And if they are not, then they are of the feel good variety which declare very disappointing doctrines.

But I believe that now days people who being drawn by God come to the internet for answers. That is simply the way we live. If we have a question we "google" it. They figure they will have just about as good a chance getting an answer as spending that time sitting in a pew. And so, I contemplate about what other sites are like. I know what this one is like. I know that we have a mixed bag around here, but we have a good diversity of personalities, and for the most part love seems to bind us all together even when we disagree.

I sometimes wonder just how many people have had the seed planted in them from this site alone. What an amazing place to be a part of. That is why I always seek to uphold the truth the best I know how, while at the same time staying as humble as I know so that God can teach me from others who have gone the way before me. I know I have found that on this site, and therefore I will stay for the 'long haul'.

 

[Who Says]

I like it. On one level it is hard to understand, probably could uses a little tweaking. But in theory, its a good way to think about the differences the sun has in our world.

Revelation 7:16 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat."

The heat of the day is what schorches the grass of the earth (men). That heat is the burning trials that men heap on themselves with blazing words of bickering and hateful judgment of each other.

I don't intend to make this long so I will not go too in depth.


My personal resolve is to not allow myself to take offence as this would be like letting myself be consumed by the heat of the day.

I will not allow any fire breathed against me of men to devour me as God has given me the power to endure it. Which is useful whether that breathed fire is real or whether only imagined.

Whereas always remaining calm and collected in love is like shining brightly by means of the Son (who is the Sunshine of our life).

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

 

[Nathan]

OK: The Trial in the Universe based on the Godheads 'MORAL' Loving Character! Their Eternal Covenant! Their Eternal Law of love is on Trail here on earth. Was Their Morality Faulty in Their Royal Eternal Law, and could it not be Obeyed? And is seen in the executional stage of sin & sinners Ending, the FINAL Fate of satan & all matured sinners which are to be Blotted from the Universe, is that True Agape Love??? That is what is the most important question that must be Eternally Settled in the Universe of The Godheads creation! And the salvation of fallen man is not the only question as important as that is!

The Godhead had the Eternal Plan, FACT!

Adam was not a faulty creation of Theirs. Freedom of their creation with a 'mind' needed proof. The Godhead Their self, put THEIR SELF on trial in fallen earth, before the UNIVERSE. 1 Peter 1:9-12 'angels desire to look into.' as well! (consider Heb's 'other worlds'.

The PLAN had to now go by satan's New Dominion won over by fallen Adam. (Matt. 4:8-9) Christ was the SECOND Adam with Adam's NO PROPENSITY for sin, As was Adam before he sinned, again They had to prove to the Universe that Their creation was not FLAWED! Yet Christ/Son was with Adams FALLEN PHYSICAL NATURE + 4000 years more of satan caused decay. And STILL CHRIST ADAM/MAN WAS VICTORIOUS!

God as Christ could not be used as it would not be used as a HUMAN Adam. Christ's power was that of the (now) Father. Yet, at NO TIME WAS CHRIST NOT GOD!!! Adams strength before his fall was still that of Phil. 4:13's Grace & supplied Power! (see Isa. 42:21 for one REAL purpose of Christ mission!) The Law of the Godhead had to be Proved Loving & JUST!There has not been one stone left unturned by satan that he & his agents have not used to prevert the Law of God! Jude's Winds have not even yet quite blowing! It will so deceiving that if it were possible the very ellect would be lost. One such wind is the perverted Doctrine of Christ. Which again must violate THE LAW of God.

THE GODHEAD are Separate Individuals! One call's Himself THE HOLY SPIRIT or Holy Ghost.. 'God IS A SPIRIT' & Jehovah God & Christ God in the beginning of Eternity, BOTH HAD an Image that mankind were patterned after! Read Exod. 33:20-23 for two of the Godhead's body parts!

And The Son?? He will forever be Eternal God/Mankind in the PLAN & ITS CONSUMMATION! Compare Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse. He came to earth to be CALLED THE SON OF GOD! That was the consummated PLAN!

--Elijah

It is interesting, yet saddening, to think that people do not consider the whole of the matter when thinking of God. We divide the Bible into "old" and "new" based solely on mans warped desire.

And in that division we have lost the real point of the matter that there is no separation, it IS one continuous plan, and it has been prophesied from begging to end.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Why we think that there is a "old" God and a "new" God is beyond me. Like somehow Jesus was a "new" thought of God the Father. And how can a "new" covenant be new if it was planned from the beginning? It cannot, except it was "new" to those hearing it. And that is what happened. New does not mean something is therefore old. I can have a new car, but is that car new if it is older than the car I bought a year ago brand new?

No. Its not, but it is to me. The car is new to me, but in time it is actually older than the "old" car I have right now. So too is the "new" covenant. So what is new about it to us? The fact that the law was written on our hearts and not on stone. This was prophesied as eternal truth before Paul ever came along.

People somehow have got this idea that people were "saved" differently than we are now. This is not true! Its the same!

We, in human flesh, are never going to be able to 'convince' otherwise. The MOST we can do is be truthful in our 'postings' and be the witness we are because of the way we live our lives. Plant the seed, let someone else water, and give Glory to God for the increase.

I hope, if nothing else, this thread has provoked people to look into at least reading the OT. It seems that it is a lost and dieing collection of books. One of fiction and lore. Insanity. Its not though. Its God's eternal plan, laid out in detail, and the NT is simply the visual picture of that 'blueprint'. It does not contradict, it does not replace, it simply is what we can "put our hands on", just as the disciples realized themselves.

1Jo 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The only thing "new" is that HE is now manifested to us. Thats all.

 

[Who Says]

Interesting. This is the only site I 'go' too. When I first joined the first day I visited two different sites. This one and one I have since forgotten. I found a lot of believers on here and decided it was a genuine place to be. I have never been on a site and was happy to start using my gift of counseling. Little did I know that I would be counseled more than I probably do for others. It truly has been one of those experiences where you give and give, but can never give out more than you receive.

That has convinced me that this is a wonderful place to be and right where God wants me. When you find that kind of refreshing drink, you have no need in looking elsewhere.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences elsewhere. I sometimes contemplate it. How we are in this "internet" age now. Used to, when people were feeling led of the Spirit, the draw from God, they would go to the local "gathering" of believers. I truly believe this is one of the end time signs that is announcing His return. Most local gatherings are sadly like that site you go too. And if they are not, then they are of the feel good variety which declare very disappointing doctrines.

But I believe that now days people who being drawn by God come to the internet for answers. That is simply the way we live. If we have a question we "google" it. They figure they will have just about as good a chance getting an answer as spending that time sitting in a pew. And so, I contemplate about what other sites are like. I know what this one is like. I know that we have a mixed bag around here, but we have a good diversity of personalities, and for the most part love seems to bind us all together even when we disagree.

I sometimes wonder just how many people have had the seed planted in them from this site alone. What an amazing place to be a part of. That is why I always seek to uphold the truth the best I know how, while at the same time staying as humble as I know so that God can teach me from others who have gone the way before me. I know I have found that on this site, and therefore I will stay for the 'long haul'.

Yes, it is a blessing to find a site such as thsi to share. I have only ever had that sort of thing happen to me twice over the course of many years using Bible chat sites. And visiting Bible chat sites is almost all I do on the internet.

I am still allowed on that site I spoke of but see no reason to hang around such spiteful tactics by those who have formed powerful clicks.

I do not go to a lot of the sites that I have visited over the years simply because they only want to argue and say hateful things. The spirit is not there to allow a healthy spiritual exchange.

I have never been banned from a site for more than their minimum. And that only twice as I said over the course of many years. In both cases they merely did not like the doctrine I spoke. And because they hated the doctrine they hated me. We can only expect that will at times happen.

Most sites I ever frequented I am yet welcome at but just prefer not visit often. I do make my rounds to them every so often though.

 

[Jake]

Well, Nathan, congratulations. Your Bible study thread has managed to reach 31 pages. ha.

 

[Wings]

Nathan's 1st entry: 'I want to start this for Rockie. I hope that it suits his desires. He is quite busy right now, but I know that this is something he wants to talk about.

My desire is to do a serious Biblical study on the Law. 1...2...3... different laws? So often we just see the word "law" translated in the Bible and saw it is pretty much the first 5 books of the Bible. After all, it is called the "Torah" which means 'instruction'; it is also known as the Pentateuch. So is this what is refereed to as a whole when the word "law" is used, for instance in the book of Acts?

I think that we can know for sure what is meant. I think that there is ample evidence that is given to us for us to know what is meant when the singular word "law" is used. I think that this evidence comes from proper contextual usage of the word. In that, I mean that the entire passage of where the word is used should be examined for the proper application.

Context seems to be an 'ugly' word to some. Or for some it seems to be a word of 'excuse'. But it is not just a word but a way of taking the human 'element' away, or at least lessening its effects on interpretation. Here is a definition of the word;

Context - "the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect; the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc".

In this way I wish to discuss the 'law' and do so Biblically.

So with that in mind, when do we first see the instance of the word "law" used in Scripture?'

Well Rockie,

This thread was started with you in mind it seems.

This first entry of Nathan's shows such good intentions doesn't it?

Have you found it helpful Rockie? Or have you found the input from so many sides confusing?

I simply can't follow it at all,

In Christ
Wings

 

[Wings]

OK: we are in Christ, [just say]? we are Justified as in Rom. 8:1, & are now at Liberty, then we sin, & we are now 'teaching' that we are not now again UNDER THE LAW?? If that were true & it is VERY VERY FAR FETCHED, (see 2 Peter 2:19 with these ones PROMISING THEM LIBERTY!) then we need No High Priest In Jesus Christ.

I will admit that it is true that these ones here had gone way past the boundaries of their probation as seen in verses from 17-22, and the Striving of the Holy Ghost was past tense! as is also seen in Gen. 6:3 & the Rev. 17:1-5 ones.

And yes, I am understanding more & more as each day passes, that there is just NO WAY that [most] can be reached! Isa. 4:4 But the wittness & the Testimony must give the opportunity at least! Matt. 24:14.

Hi there Elijah674,

OK: we are in Christ, [just say]? we are Justified as in Rom. 8:1, & are now at Liberty, then we sin, & we are now 'teaching' that we are not now again UNDER THE LAW??

No, we are not under the law. As far as our 'standing' 'in Christ' is concerned we are without blame, faultless before Him. However, our 'state' is quite another thing; for our manner of life and witness will be judged and we will suffer loss or gain reward accordingly.

If that were true & it is VERY VERY FAR FETCHED, (see 2 Peter 2:19 with these ones PROMISING THEM LIBERTY!) then we need No High Priest In Jesus Christ.

Yes, I understand your reason for quoting 2 Peter 2:19, for these 'seducers' promise 'liberty', but are themselves the servants of corruption. This is a horrible picture, and verse 20 shows the outcome doesn't it Elijah674?

With liberty comes responsibility also doesn't it? For we must not use our liberty as license to act in a manner which is not in accordance with the will of God in Christ Jesus. We will sin, we are told so, but we have an Advocate before the Father, 'Christ Jesus our Lord', who intercedes for us. We are also told that if we confess our sins we will be forgiven our sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

We have also to remember to whom Peter was speaking, his letter is written to the believers who were dispersed among the nations, Jews mainly, for he was an apostle to the Circumcision. This was written during the period covered by the book of Acts, when the door was still open to the nation of Israel to be restored, by repentance and the acknowledgment of Christ their Saviour.

It was in relationship to Israel that the Lord was 'High Priest' wasn't it Elijah? The Gentile believer had never known Him in any other capacity than 'Saviour' had they?

Thank you for responding to my post.

In Christ
Wings

 

[Elijah674]

Hi there Elijah674,



No, we are not under the law. As far as our 'standing' 'in Christ' is concerned we are without blame, faultless before Him. However, our 'state' is quite another thing; for our manner of life and witness will be judged and we will suffer loss or gain reward accordingly.



Yes, I understand your reason for quoting 2 Peter 2:19, for these 'seducers' promise 'liberty', but are themselves the servants of corruption. This is a horrible picture, and verse 20 shows the outcome doesn't it Elijah674?

With liberty comes responsibility also doesn't it? For we must not use our liberty as license to act in a manner which is not in accordance with the will of God in Christ Jesus. We will sin, we are told so, but we have an Advocate before the Father, 'Christ Jesus our Lord', who intercedes for us. We are also told that if we confess our sins we will be forgiven our sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

We have also to remember to whom Peter was speaking, his letter is written to the believers who were dispersed among the nations, Jews mainly, for he was an apostle to the Circumcision. This was written during the period covered by the book of Acts, when the door was still open to the nation of Israel to be restored, by repentance and the acknowledgment of Christ their Saviour.

It was in relationship to Israel that the Lord was 'High Priest' wasn't it Elijah? The Gentile believer had never known Him in any other capacity than 'Saviour' had they?

Thank you for responding to my post.

In Christ
Wings

Your welcome! Thanks to you for trying to bring some serious thinking back into the original thread question!

What we are hearing is that there is NO LONGER the Eternal Covenant LAW in heavens Throne room where Christ is still our High Priest for a short longer! (Dan. 12:1-2 ='s Matt. 24:21 on, unless we are not at present in that excellerating time!)

And, that ALL LAW is now Finished, Gone! & when one sin's as all do as your post states, these ones falsely teach not so! (zapped persay) So this accepted stuff is blantenly flawed teaching and is ABSOLUTE satanic when we are told what SIN IS in 1 John 2:4's & what these ones call the New Covenant even!!

'Whosoever committeth sin transgress also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.'

The thread has more small talk back & forth with loveydovey stuff than a family reunion that never knows how to even get to the 'meat' of the title of the thread! God has still Many Laws that these 'birds' violate daily. What family reunions talk of Christ Laws?? satan uses anything & everything to dis-arm or disallow The Eternal Laws of God! Dan. 7:25 I can just venture a guess of what goes on in back & forth private personal emails. (Even about this thread) See 2 Cor. 4:2 & these ones love to have it so? look at the hits & the much applause & amens! And Rev. 17:1-5 is time for this, huh!


Regardless? Thanks for bringing your post thinking up! But it will be just covered up very quickly?;) So 'i' think that for me and my house will move on to more meaty grown up ones who are sincere as I see it at least, and NO, I am not refering to you as an individual. Heb. 6:4

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Well Rockie,

This thread was started with you in mind it seems.

This first entry of Nathan's shows such good intentions doesn't it?

Have you found it helpful Rockie? Or have you found the input from so many sides confusing?

I simply can't follow it at all,

In Christ
Wings

It did have Rockie in mind. But it was because he thought I was preaching that we are "under" the law.

I think the reason you cannot follow it is because, as Elijah pointed out, we have had a lot of personal interaction going on rather than just pure study of the Bible. And the most significant thing that can add to the confusion is the amount of deleted posts along with edited ones.

If we ALL would think about what we are saying when we say it, not get in a hurry, and reread before we post, then there would not be a need for a lot of this confusion.

My desire is that we look at the Bible and pull out of it the different classifications of the law. It indeed was broken up. There are different parts of it that relate to different things, just like the Temple. Yes, they are all apart of "The Law", but that is simply because the Jewish people did not try and classify them. They obeyed, or at least some did, the "law(s)" as a whole.

I do not think its too late if we could all agree that regardless of our thoughts for one another personally, there is factual evidence to this separation of the law. All it would take is some digging in the Scriptures. But what happens is in our desire to defend our position, we find ourselves dismissing the written word. It gets thrown out as "old". We claim that it is the "shadow" of things to come, but we find no use for it now. Paul never declared that, and neither did any of the Apostles. In fact, we seem to always skim over where Jesus profoundly stated that the law would never become void until heaven and earth pass away. It has not yet, so the law cannot be void.

I hear people speak of "witnessing" to unbelievers and these are the very people who speak of the law as nothing to us. Yet the very intention of the law, to shine light on sin, is the very thing that God uses to draw mankind to Himself. So these people want to "be a light" without any light. Huh?

Luk 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

Void - piptō

1) to descend from a higher place to a lower
a) to fall (either from or upon)
1) to be thrust down
b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
a) to fall down
1) to be prostrated, fall prostrate
2) of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
3) the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
4) to prostrate one's self
5) used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
6) to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
7) to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
b) to be cast down from a state of prosperity
1) to fall from a state of uprightness
2) to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
a) of virtues
3) to lose authority, no longer have force
a) of sayings, precepts, etc.
4) to be removed from power by death
5) to fail of participating in, miss a share in

I am not sure how much clearer it can be. The law was not given to the Israelites for them only. It was given to them to be a light unto the nations. And then anyone who would come into them, to come and worship their God, that person was then "under" the law as stated.

Now we have the law as a guide to sin in our life. Not that we are under it, but rather it is IN us. We were brought into their "nation". Paul is very clear about this. Christ was not this "new guy". He was the promised Messiah, prophesied from the beginning. We are brought into Him.

Rom 11:17-21 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

We get all "lotty dotty" over the fact that we are now 'saved by grace', as if it some new thing given to the Gentiles. Wrong. This is how the OT saints were saved also. Its always been God's grace. Natural branches, the Jews, were broken off. Think about that for a minute. They were broken off. And God in His kindness put us on that tree. To say then, that the law that is clearly not going to be gone till the earth is no more, is now no more for us because we are not Jews by birth???

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

If you have been born again, which is required of anyone to see the kingdom, then you have had your heart circumcised. A heart of stone taken out, a heart of flesh put in. That is, if you have received this heart. And what is crazy is that this new heart is the basis of the "new" covenant that everyone likes to claim they are "under" or "apart" of.

So in all reality, its just peoples natural desire to not be ruled and governed by anyone. Its the natural sin nature that has infiltrated the Church today and declares freedom. But the Christ was not just a person who would take the law and throw it away, He was one that was going to be King and Lord over His kingdom. If people do not want His Kingship over them, then they cannot be in His kingdom. Its pretty simple when you think about it.

 

[Joe67]

It is vain to limit the Lord's purpose to only a geographical location or to a historical personality and event.

When the Lord speaks, he is speaking to his elect children who are scattered to the 4 winds, among all nations, clans, languages and peoples apart from time and space.

The testimony of Jesus through both the OT and NT writings are for his elect children that the Father has given the Son before time, but are now made manifest in human flesh.

Only a few at Mt. Sinai heard the law mixed with faith. The Lord did not give faith, but to a few. He did not give the many a heart to understand.

Only a few were given to hear the word of Jesus mixed with faith and grace. The Jews ate the miracles yet without repentance through faith. The Greeks desired to see Jesus, yet without repentance through grace.

Only a few are given to hear the word through the apostles mixed with faith and grace. Many hear the apostolic word as either sweet (faith) or bitter (grace). The Lord has a place for this limited experience that he gives. It is like Japeth abiding in the tent of Shem. Bitter grace and sweet faith, mixed together, is the word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Word to them is command and promise.

Many are called intellectually and/or emotionally only through the power of human reason and emotion and their God ordained authority, and the Lord has a place for them, but it is not part of his priesthood. Their service is a good service in the mode of a servant, under the letter of the word with its human anointing, grammatical and linguistic science, and its historical power. This is useful for a little while and must not be despised, though this human anointing is like Job's 3 friends. Their robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb and they do pass through great tribulation. Yet, they still glory in their flesh as did Moses, Samuel, David and John the baptist. Everyone, who is called, begins here. We have all known Christ after the flesh.

Few are called to the deeper sacrifice of their human desires of the flesh and of the mind, into the obscurity of the ministration of the Spirit, without human authorization and praise/respect/institutional authority. When the Lord calls again in this calling, the human agent does not take vows or make the Lord any promises. The Lord commands and promises and the hearer believes and obeys through suffering. This is the calling into the priesthood, and when any human will and/or promise is added, then the soul goes a-whoring after another god, which is not god, but is worshiped as God. Yet, the Lord knows they are but flesh and are unable to resist the law of sin in their flesh, by the will of the flesh or the will of man. They must remain in the camp with their mother and father, until the time appointed of the Father, when they leave the camp unwillingly, at the command of their Father.

When all the desires of the flesh and the mind are sacrificed by grace through faith, we then are called to enter into the divine rest from our own labors and then our works follow us through the dispensation of grace and that work of God ordained before time. This occurs while we live and serve on the earth, as Jesus is ministering in the most holy place of the new Jerusalem above as our high priest.

Joe

 

[Jake]

Well Rockie,

This thread was started with you in mind it seems.

This first entry of Nathan's shows such good intentions doesn't it?

Have you found it helpful Rockie? Or have you found the input from so many sides confusing?

I simply can't follow it at all,

In Christ
Wings

Yes, it was good intentions, but I (we) never followed what his intention was, until you came on board, your explanation was very clear and concise, I agree with what you have written. To be honest, I was going to start this thread, but put it in Apologetics haha, but he beat me to it and put it into studies.

This thread started from another thread because Nathan had said "he preached the law", and I was wondering why he did so, and not Christ. Through this study I do understand him better, although, we are still in disagreement about the law.

 

[Jake]

It did have Rockie in mind. But it was because he thought I was preaching that we are "under" the law.

I think the reason you cannot follow it is because, as Elijah pointed out, we have had a lot of personal interaction going on rather than just pure study of the Bible. And the most significant thing that can add to the confusion is the amount of deleted posts along with edited ones.

If we ALL would think about what we are saying when we say it, not get in a hurry, and reread before we post, then there would not be a need for a lot of this confusion.

My desire is that we look at the Bible and pull out of it the different classifications of the law. It indeed was broken up. There are different parts of it that relate to different things, just like the Temple. Yes, they are all apart of "The Law", but that is simply because the Jewish people did not try and classify them. They obeyed, or at least some did, the "law(s)" as a whole.

I do not think its too late if we could all agree that regardless of our thoughts for one another personally, there is factual evidence to this separation of the law. All it would take is some digging in the Scriptures. But what happens is in our desire to defend our position, we find ourselves dismissing the written word. It gets thrown out as "old". We claim that it is the "shadow" of things to come, but we find no use for it now. Paul never declared that, and neither did any of the Apostles. In fact, we seem to always skim over where Jesus profoundly stated that the law would never become void until heaven and earth pass away. It has not yet, so the law cannot be void.

I hear people speak of "witnessing" to unbelievers and these are the very people who speak of the law as nothing to us. Yet the very intention of the law, to shine light on sin, is the very thing that God uses to draw mankind to Himself. So these people want to "be a light" without any light. Huh?

Luk 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

Void - piptō

1) to descend from a higher place to a lower
a) to fall (either from or upon)
1) to be thrust down
b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation

2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
a) to fall down
1) to be prostrated, fall prostrate
2) of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
3) the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
4) to prostrate one's self
5) used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
6) to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
7) to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
b) to be cast down from a state of prosperity
1) to fall from a state of uprightness
2) to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
a) of virtues
3) to lose authority, no longer have force
a) of sayings, precepts, etc.
4) to be removed from power by death
5) to fail of participating in, miss a share in

I am not sure how much clearer it can be. The law was not given to the Israelites for them only. It was given to them to be a light unto the nations. And then anyone who would come into them, to come and worship their God, that person was then "under" the law as stated.

Now we have the law as a guide to sin in our life. Not that we are under it, but rather it is IN us. We were brought into their "nation". Paul is very clear about this. Christ was not this "new guy". He was the promised Messiah, prophesied from the beginning. We are brought into Him.

Rom 11:17-21 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

We get all "lotty dotty" over the fact that we are now 'saved by grace', as if it some new thing given to the Gentiles. Wrong. This is how the OT saints were saved also. Its always been God's grace. Natural branches, the Jews, were broken off. Think about that for a minute. They were broken off. And God in His kindness put us on that tree. To say then, that the law that is clearly not going to be gone till the earth is no more, is now no more for us because we are not Jews by birth???

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

If you have been born again, which is required of anyone to see the kingdom, then you have had your heart circumcised. A heart of stone taken out, a heart of flesh put in. That is, if you have received this heart. And what is crazy is that this new heart is the basis of the "new" covenant that everyone likes to claim they are "under" or "apart" of.

So in all reality, its just peoples natural desire to not be ruled and governed by anyone. Its the natural sin nature that has infiltrated the Church today and declares freedom. But the Christ was not just a person who would take the law and throw it away, He was one that was going to be King and Lord over His kingdom. If people do not want His Kingship over them, then they cannot be in His kingdom. Its pretty simple when you think about it.

We will probably have to agree to disagree about this, you say you are not under law, yet you do teach we follow the law, to me, it's just a schematic thing. We do not follow the written law, we follow Jesus, the spiritual perfect one.

 

[Nathan]

It is vain to limit the Lord's purpose to only a geographical location or to a historical personality and event.

When the Lord speaks, he is speaking to his elect children who are scattered to the 4 winds, among all nations, clans, languages and peoples apart from time and space.

The testimony of Jesus through both the OT and NT writings are for his elect children that the Father has given the Son before time, but are now made manifest in human flesh.

Only a few at Mt. Sinai heard the law mixed with faith. The Lord did not give faith, but to a few. He did not give the many a heart to understand.

Only a few were given to hear the word of Jesus mixed with faith and grace. The Jews ate the miracles yet without repentance through faith. The Greeks desired to see Jesus, yet without repentance through grace.

Only a few are given to hear the word through the apostles mixed with faith and grace. Many hear the apostolic word as either sweet (faith) or bitter (grace). The Lord has a place for this limited experience that he gives. It is like Japeth abiding in the tent of Shem. Bitter grace and sweet faith, mixed together, is the word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Word to them is command and promise.

Many are called intellectually and/or emotionally only through the power of human reason and emotion and their God ordained authority, and the Lord has a place for them, but it is not part of his priesthood. Their service is a good service in the mode of a servant, under the letter of the word with its human anointing, grammatical and linguistic science, and its historical power. This is useful for a little while and must not be despised, though this human anointing is like Job's 3 friends. Their robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb and they do pass through great tribulation. Yet, they still glory in their flesh as did Moses, Samuel, David and John the baptist. Everyone, who is called, begins here. We have all known Christ after the flesh.

Few are called to the deeper sacrifice of their human desires of the flesh and of the mind, into the obscurity of the ministration of the Spirit, without human authorization and praise/respect/institutional authority. When the Lord calls again in this calling, the human agent does not take vows or make the Lord any promises. The Lord commands and promises and the hearer believes and obeys through suffering. This is the calling into the priesthood, and when any human will and/or promise is added, then the soul goes a-whoring after another god, which is not god, but is worshiped as God. Yet, the Lord knows they are but flesh and are unable to resist the law of sin in their flesh, by the will of the flesh or the will of man. They must remain in the camp with their mother and father, until the time appointed of the Father, when they leave the camp unwillingly, at the command of their Father.

When all the desires of the flesh and the mind are sacrificed by grace through faith, we then are called to enter into the divine rest from our own labors and then our works follow us through the dispensation of grace and that work of God ordained before time. This occurs while we live and serve on the earth, as Jesus is ministering in the most holy place of the new Jerusalem above as our high priest.

Joe

I understand what you are saying. And I believe it to be true. We are all called to a specific purpose in the Body. I have come to understand the above statement of complete surrender to be true. At that point, nothing else matters. He is Lord and Master, our Savior, and everything we are is devoted to Him to the point of not even regarding ourselves after the flesh.

2Cr 5:14-16 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

So I understand what you are saying. But you have to admit that it does sound like you put down those who are fulfilling their God given duty to proclaim the truth to those who are dead in the Spirit; as if they have not 'reached' the higher level of the calling.

I appreciate those who are at that "level". They are the ones I search for to find wisdom. But at the same time, I have tried my very best, MY very best, to see that I am not walking after my own desires. Of course, this can be a never ending circle, when my flesh looks to my flesh to see if it is walking in the truth; then I am simply chasing my own tail.

While I believe that God, through the Spirit of Christ, is quite able to save those who He chooses without ANY human intervention; I still see that we can interact and communicate the truths of God's Word with pure hearts and minds. Even when the flesh tries to dig in.

The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.

1Cr 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So, God's law still stands to do its intended purpose till the end when He comes to gather all unto Himself. He still uses humans, in their flesh, to fulfill His plan. If we just 'lay' down this law, and desire in and of ourselves to be this 'super spiritual' person, then we have just succumb to the sinful desire of the flesh.

I can tell you, personally, that although I am called as you would say "like Job's 3 friends", I have no glory in my flesh and do not regard myself after it one iota. Not one bit. When I do I realize just how sinful I am, and am immediately thrust back into the arms of Christ.

I am not sure, but where I do agree with your whole post about the descriptions of the saved, I believe you draw a line that is simply not there. I think that you distinguish a hierarchy based on Spiritual gifts. So to say that because I am not a hand, then I have not as "grand" a calling as the foot does, is just no right.

I think you are wrong on the part of "few" being called to the "deeper sacrifice of their human desires". We are ALL called to that.

Mar 8:34-35 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

Anyone who has been called of by God MUST deny themselves. Its not an option. You cannot serve two masters, no matter what "part" of the body you are.

Yes, we all "mature" in Christ, and in this maturing we see the natural sinful desires of the flesh fade away into loving service to our master. But its not a separate calling, and its not for some. And even those who have come to the point where everything they do is devoted to love of their Master and Savior, they will still interact with those on a fleshly basis when dealing with those who are only in their flesh. But with those in the Spirit, they can at last walk in the Spirit not regarding the flesh at all.

Paul did this up to his dying day. So did all the other Apostles. I think that Paul best summed it up like this;

2Cr 2:14-17 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

 

[Jake]

I understand what you are saying. And I believe it to be true. We are all called to a specific purpose in the Body. I have come to understand the above statement of complete surrender to be true. At that point, nothing else matters. He is Lord and Master, our Savior, and everything we are is devoted to Him to the point of not even regarding ourselves after the flesh.

2Cr 5:14-16 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.

So I understand what you are saying. But you have to admit that it does sound like you put down those who are fulfilling their God given duty to proclaim the truth to those who are dead in the Spirit; as if they have not 'reached' the higher level of the calling.

I appreciate those who are at that "level". They are the ones I search for to find wisdom. But at the same time, I have tried my very best, MY very best, to see that I am not walking after my own desires. Of course, this can be a never ending circle, when my flesh looks to my flesh to see if it is walking in the truth; then I am simply chasing my own tail.

While I believe that God, through the Spirit of Christ, is quite able to save those who He chooses without ANY human intervention; I still see that we can interact and communicate the truths of God's Word with pure hearts and minds. Even when the flesh tries to dig in.

The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.

1Cr 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So, God's law still stands to do its intended purpose till the end when He comes to gather all unto Himself. He still uses humans, in their flesh, to fulfill His plan. If we just 'lay' down this law, and desire in and of ourselves to be this 'super spiritual' person, then we have just succumb to the sinful desire of the flesh.

I can tell you, personally, that although I am called as you would say "like Job's 3 friends", I have no glory in my flesh and do not regard myself after it one iota. Not one bit. When I do I realize just how sinful I am, and am immediately thrust back into the arms of Christ.

I am not sure, but where I do agree with your whole post about the descriptions of the saved, I believe you draw a line that is simply not there. I think that you distinguish a hierarchy based on Spiritual gifts. So to say that because I am not a hand, then I have not as "grand" a calling as the foot does, is just no right.

I think you are wrong on the part of "few" being called to the "deeper sacrifice of their human desires". We are ALL called to that.

Mar 8:34-35 And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

Anyone who has been called of by God MUST deny themselves. Its not an option. You cannot serve two masters, no matter what "part" of the body you are.

Yes, we all "mature" in Christ, and in this maturing we see the natural sinful desires of the flesh fade away into loving service to our master. But its not a separate calling, and its not for some. And even those who have come to the point where everything they do is devoted to love of their Master and Savior, they will still interact with those on a fleshly basis when dealing with those who are only in their flesh. But with those in the Spirit, they can at last walk in the Spirit not regarding the flesh at all.

Paul did this up to his dying day. So did all the other Apostles. I think that Paul best summed it up like this;

2Cr 2:14-17 But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere. For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.

I agree that the Church is called to completely die to our flesh, and walk even has He walked, and to conform to His image, that is our High Calling, 100% manifesting Christ.
We know that many are called, but few are chosen, the road is narrow, so although the entire Church is called, few will achieve.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Nathan]

We will probably have to agree to disagree about this, you say you are not under law, yet you do teach we follow the law, to me, it's just a schematic thing. We do not follow the written law, we follow Jesus, the spiritual perfect one.

2 I cannot say anymore. I have tried to state it as clearly as possible, but all I can do is plant the seed. I will not make the plant grow no matter how hard I try to 'think' it to be so.

I have not taught that we follow the law. I am at least glad you finally see that I am not teaching we are under the law. I have countless times stated that we follow Christ, through the leading of the Spirit. He is the only one we follow.

The law stands as it is. Unmoved and untouched. It stands there for all to see the righteous requirements of God. Then if you pan over, you see Christ. He has the same image, yet it is manifested in flesh for us to see. And through His coming and death, we come to realize that He is the one who takes our sin and casts it as far as the east is from the west.

But the law still stands. So what is its purpose now? For us to "follow" it? No. It stands as a witness of who God is, and what He has done. It still points to Christ. So this law is still there to condemn sin in the flesh.

Have you ever ridden on a train? They run on tracks. If they do not stay on them, then they do not go anywhere. Now, does the tracks dictate to the train what to do? No. The train has freedom even within the confines of the tracks. The tracks simply give the train a guide. A straight path.

The law is simply there to let us know we are on the right track if we ever have any doubts, it is also there to let us know when the flesh arises and sin tries to take back over. Its a two fold witness.

I never, again never, stated we look at the law as a guide. But we know its there and it tells us if we are "on the track" or if we "got off the track". But just like Joe stated, when we come to a greater maturity in our faith we have no need in looking down at the tracks to see if we are on them. We know we are on them.

I am not sure about you Rockie, but I have doubted from time to time. Some people just say "have faith". Well, have faith in what? Well, Jesus they tell you. Ok. Sounds good, but what does that mean? See, Jesus was perfectly on the "tracks". He never once got off of them. So if we have "faith" then we look to Jesus, well if we look to Jesus we can see clearly that He is traveling down those tracks, all the way to the end.

We speak of love and service a lot in the church. But what is the very thing that we hear as a warning from Christ over and over?

Mat 7:22-23 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

In other words, they were clearly not on the tracks. And although they were "busy" doing the work of love and good things, they never once considered what tracks they were on. If they had looked down, tested themselves, then they would have seen where they were going.

Think about it this way also;

Mat 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Do you consider this a sarcastic statement by Jesus? I do not. I think that if He said it was hard, then it must be hard. But why is it hard? Because we must die to ourselves, and submit to His Lordship. For some this is hard because they want to be in control, receiving their own righteousness for their works done. But for others this is hard because they do not want to submit to Christ as Master/Lord, they only want Him as Savior.

And so the law stands as a witness against both sides. To the one it stands as a witness that they cannot be good enough to receive righteousness. The law convicts them as sinners.

And to the other, it stands as a witness that they are not submitting to Christ as Master. Because if they really died to themselves, and were alive in Christ, then they could "look" down at the tracks they are ridding on and see that its the true way that Christ went.

Its all or nothing. Lukewarmness is not going to cut it. Both of these people are lukewarm, one just wants a Master/Lord, and the other just wants a Savior.

2Pe 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Our aim is Christ, but if these "things" are not there, if they are lacking, then a person is close to being blind once again. And if these qualities are not there, I guarantee that the "law" is going to show you that real quickly. But these things are not contrary to the law, and therefore if you practice them then the law is not going to do anything but stand as a witness that you are walking in the truth. Jesus is not just Savior, and He is not just Lord. He is both.

 

[Jake]

2 I cannot say anymore. I have tried to state it as clearly as possible, but all I can do is plant the seed. I will not make the plant grow no matter how hard I try to 'think' it to be so.

I have not taught that we follow the law. I am at least glad you finally see that I am not teaching we are under the law. I have countless times stated that we follow Christ, through the leading of the Spirit. He is the only one we follow.

The law stands as it is. Unmoved and untouched. It stands there for all to see the righteous requirements of God. Then if you pan over, you see Christ. He has the same image, yet it is manifested in flesh for us to see. And through His coming and death, we come to realize that He is the one who takes our sin and casts it as far as the east is from the west.

But the law still stands. So what is its purpose now? For us to "follow" it? No. It stands as a witness of who God is, and what He has done. It still points to Christ. So this law is still there to condemn sin in the flesh.

Have you ever ridden on a train? They run on tracks. If they do not stay on them, then they do not go anywhere. Now, does the tracks dictate to the train what to do? No. The train has freedom even within the confines of the tracks. The tracks simply give the train a guide. A straight path.

The law is simply there to let us know we are on the right track if we ever have any doubts, it is also there to let us know when the flesh arises and sin tries to take back over. Its a two fold witness.

I never, again never, stated we look at the law as a guide. But we know its there and it tells us if we are "on the track" or if we "got off the track". But just like Joe stated, when we come to a greater maturity in our faith we have no need in looking down at the tracks to see if we are on them. We know we are on them.

I am not sure about you Rockie, but I have doubted from time to time. Some people just say "have faith". Well, have faith in what? Well, Jesus they tell you. Ok. Sounds good, but what does that mean? See, Jesus was perfectly on the "tracks". He never once got off of them. So if we have "faith" then we look to Jesus, well if we look to Jesus we can see clearly that He is traveling down those tracks, all the way to the end.

We speak of love and service a lot in the church. But what is the very thing that we hear as a warning from Christ over and over?

Mat 7:22-23 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

In other words, they were clearly not on the tracks. And although they were "busy" doing the work of love and good things, they never once considered what tracks they were on. If they had looked down, tested themselves, then they would have seen where they were going.

Think about it this way also;

Mat 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Do you consider this a sarcastic statement by Jesus? I do not. I think that if He said it was hard, then it must be hard. But why is it hard? Because we must die to ourselves, and submit to His Lordship. For some this is hard because they want to be in control, receiving their own righteousness for their works done. But for others this is hard because they do not want to submit to Christ as Master/Lord, they only want Him as Savior.

And so the law stands as a witness against both sides. To the one it stands as a witness that they cannot be good enough to receive righteousness. The law convicts them as sinners.

And to the other, it stands as a witness that they are not submitting to Christ as Master. Because if they really died to themselves, and were alive in Christ, then they could "look" down at the tracks they are ridding on and see that its the true way that Christ went.

Its all or nothing. Lukewarmness is not going to cut it. Both of these people are lukewarm, one just wants a Master/Lord, and the other just wants a Savior.

2Pe 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.

For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Our aim is Christ, but if these "things" are not there, if they are lacking, then a person is close to being blind once again. And if these qualities are not there, I guarantee that the "law" is going to show you that real quickly. But these things are not contrary to the law, and therefore if you practice them then the law is not going to do anything but stand as a witness that you are walking in the truth. Jesus is not just Savior, and He is not just Lord. He is both.

I see what you are saying, it appears we are saying the same thing, that Christ is our lead, it is He who we follow. I hear that you are saying we do not follow the law, nor are we under the law, however and this is where I see things as you using schematics.......
You continue to keep a Sabbath day. The way I see this, Nathan, is simply put, you are following the law because you "keep" the Sabbath day, that is "keeping the law". There is no way around this, you can not say you do not keep the law, or follow the written law, yet you are doing just that. If you are keeping within the law the Israelites were given and commanded to keep, then you are keeping their law by keeping a Sabbath day holy and in doing so.
There is no way around it.
and even with me saying this I know where your heart is Nathan, your desire is to follow Him.

 

[Nathan]

I see what you are saying, it appears we are saying the same thing, that Christ is our lead, it is He who we follow. I hear that you are saying we do not follow the law, nor are we under the law, however and this is where I see things as you using schematics.......
You continue to keep a Sabbath day. The way I see this, Nathan, is simply put, you are following the law because you "keep" the Sabbath day, that is "keeping the law". There is no way around this, you can not say you do not keep the law, or follow the written law, yet you are doing just that. If you are keeping within the law the Israelites were given and commanded to keep, then you are keeping their law by keeping a Sabbath day holy and in doing so.
There is no way around it.
and even with me saying this I know where your heart is Nathan, your desire is to follow Him.

Thanks Rockie. As far as the Sabbath, I would love to share my heart sometime, but I am out of steam right now. But, from the sound of it, you are close to understanding me about it, but I guarantee that its not what you think. I will explain later.

 

[Who Says]

It is vain to limit the Lord's purpose to only a geographical location or to a historical personality and event.

When the Lord speaks, he is speaking to his elect children who are scattered to the 4 winds, among all nations, clans, languages and peoples apart from time and space.

The testimony of Jesus through both the OT and NT writings are for his elect children that the Father has given the Son before time, but are now made manifest in human flesh.

Only a few at Mt. Sinai heard the law mixed with faith. The Lord did not give faith, but to a few. He did not give the many a heart to understand.

Only a few were given to hear the word of Jesus mixed with faith and grace. The Jews ate the miracles yet without repentance through faith. The Greeks desired to see Jesus, yet without repentance through grace.

Only a few are given to hear the word through the apostles mixed with faith and grace. Many hear the apostolic word as either sweet (faith) or bitter (grace). The Lord has a place for this limited experience that he gives. It is like Japeth abiding in the tent of Shem. Bitter grace and sweet faith, mixed together, is the word to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Word to them is command and promise.

Many are called intellectually and/or emotionally only through the power of human reason and emotion and their God ordained authority, and the Lord has a place for them, but it is not part of his priesthood. Their service is a good service in the mode of a servant, under the letter of the word with its human anointing, grammatical and linguistic science, and its historical power. This is useful for a little while and must not be despised, though this human anointing is like Job's 3 friends. Their robes are washed in the blood of the Lamb and they do pass through great tribulation. Yet, they still glory in their flesh as did Moses, Samuel, David and John the baptist. Everyone, who is called, begins here. We have all known Christ after the flesh.

Few are called to the deeper sacrifice of their human desires of the flesh and of the mind, into the obscurity of the ministration of the Spirit, without human authorization and praise/respect/institutional authority. When the Lord calls again in this calling, the human agent does not take vows or make the Lord any promises. The Lord commands and promises and the hearer believes and obeys through suffering. This is the calling into the priesthood, and when any human will and/or promise is added, then the soul goes a-whoring after another god, which is not god, but is worshiped as God. Yet, the Lord knows they are but flesh and are unable to resist the law of sin in their flesh, by the will of the flesh or the will of man. They must remain in the camp with their mother and father, until the time appointed of the Father, when they leave the camp unwillingly, at the command of their Father.

When all the desires of the flesh and the mind are sacrificed by grace through faith, we then are called to enter into the divine rest from our own labors and then our works follow us through the dispensation of grace and that work of God ordained before time. This occurs while we live and serve on the earth, as Jesus is ministering in the most holy place of the new Jerusalem above as our high priest.

Joe

Very insightful and edifying!!! :yes

If there be flaws in it they are minor. It is a read well worth reading.

 

[Nathan]

So the question gets brought up, or rather the statement;

The way I see this, Nathan, is simply put, you are following the law because you "keep" the Sabbath day, that is "keeping the law". There is no way around this, you can not say you do not keep the law, or follow the written law, yet you are doing just that.

You are correct. I believe in "keeping" the law. Why? Because it was placed their by God, in my heart. There is no legalism involved in that. If I "keep" anniversary cards my wife gives me, or letters my father wrote me, I am not doing it out of a sense of 'right or wrong', but I keep them because they mean something special to me.

God's law means something special to me. Without it I would have never known who He was. I would have never known a need for a Savior. It shows me who He is and just how righteous He is. It shows me how destitute I am. There is ABSOLUTELY no sense of self imposed 'righteousness' associated with keeping His commands. I do it out of love.

When I first came to Christ, well, when I first decided that I was going to come to Christ, it was an fleshly emotional feeling thing. Quickly it came to a deeper understanding of my sin, and realization that I cannot come to Him. I realized that only He can draw me, and that struck humility deep in my soul. To think that I could do something to 'earn' salvation, even if it was a simple 'walk down the isle'.

Later that year He sought me out and found me. It came when someone was pouring clean water from one vessel to another. All I could see was dirty water coming out of the one vessel, and I realized it was me. He saved me that day, cleaned me, and took me to Himself. From then till now, my life has been about seeking Him. Sure, there are many, MANY times that I have fell flat on my face, even times of rebellion. But each time He calls and searches for me to bring me back.

So, then the Sabbath. Well, after my new birth I had this 'instinct' to want to worship God. It was not there before. I just went to "church" because it was the good thing to do. But now I wanted to. However, where as before my birth I would sit and listen to 'preachers' preach and get all emotional, now I started seeing things severely flawed. I would speak with them about what I studied, and the same thing always ended the discussion;

"Everyone interpretes the Bible differently to a degree, as long as we agree on the core doctrines the rest is fine".

So for many years I went on wondering why I would be led in one direction in personal quiet time with the Lord, and then when I went to "church" I would hear something different. Of course, the "core" doctrines were the same. Jesus is the Christ, Son of God, etc. We all know them, but do we really?

All through this my desire for God strengthened but my desire for "church" was growing thin. I was tired of going to a place that I could not be in true "fellowship" with. I wanted real relationships with other people. So I started searching around, looking at other places, but what I found is that each one is the same. I could agree with some, but then other teaching was different. I never could find a place where I seemed to be able to agree with to even a somewhat degree. I know personalities will always interfere, but thats not the case with my searching, it was doctrine.

So I simply set out to just do study in the way I had always done it and let God perfect my life in Him personally. In Christ. I still, and do still, go to the same 'church' I went to from the beginning. But things started changing, God was leading me to speak what I learned in public now. It was amazing when the small group leader would teach a lesson, it most of the time would be on something that I had studied personally and was able to contribute quite a bit.

Now, the further I have grown in Christ, the more I desire to know His way. From the beginning, I have always felt a desire to devote a "day" to God. Notice, it was a desire, not a fleshly compulsion. It was not man induced, but just a natural desire that flowed from the depths of my soul. Its interesting, because looking back it was just for a single day. I go to mid-week services also because they gather then too. But if something came up, and I was not able to attend, I felt no grieving over it like I did when I missed that once a week thing.

But the closer I had got, the more I realized that there is something more. No, not out of a want to be 'legal' about my worship, but something was just not "right" inside me. I eventually found this place and started some serious conversations with people. Its nice, because people come here to actually talk about God, where as people go to local gatherings mainly to talk about things that have happened during the week.

But coming on here I meet someone special. He was patient with me and withstood the barrage of questions I threw at him about everything and anything. The the law came up. I had always wondered why my desire is to walk in God's law, but most 'churches' will tell you its impossible and or that its changed. This did not sit well with me LONG before I had ever come to this site. But it was not UNTIL I came here that I was challenged with this before. When I came here, I had someone actually speak to what I had believed for quite a few years.

Now, at first, the interactions were quite pleasant for me. To talk with someone who was another human and had the same beliefs. But when it came to one topic, the Sabbath, I got 'hung up'. It sounded way to legalistic to me. And I know that legalism is death to anyone who decides to walk in it. I was not going to have any part of it, and the discussions quickly turned into ones I did not like. But when I took some time apart, looked at things purely from a Biblical perspective and allowed just quiet time with the Spirit, things started to make a whole lot of sense.

I realized it was not legalism to consider a day holy. People do it all the time with Sunday. I realized that it was indeed a day created by God Himself. I realized that this natural desire that came after my new birth to worship Him like we do, was this natural desire that was born out of the law written on my heart. And when I realized that the Sabbath was a day made by God, set up by God, and made for me, I realized that I could 'keep' it and not have ANY feelings of being self-righteous.

So no, I do not keep the Sabbath because it is written down on paper or in the Bible. I keep it because I want to keep it. But after this, I started to really consider the other things that I had been taught in my quiet times of the past. I realized that the Sabbath day was one of the 4 commands that deal with a relationship with God, not with man. Then I started realizing that the further man has come away from even considering the Sabbath as a real day, the further attached to this world people have come.

I realized there was a direct relation between remembering a day of creation and the forgetting of a God who created it. So then, I realized that the Sabbath is good. Its not "keeping the law". Its a relationship with a God I love. The only reason I speak against those who try to convert it into something else, is the very reason I would speak against those who tried to tell me that the card my wife gave to me did not mean what it said. Its nothing personal.

I believe that the 10 commandments, as I have said, are a tell tale sign that can be used to understand what love really is. And yes, I believe that the Sabbath is one of them. What peoples opposition to it is, is beyond me. I get why people do the Sunday thing. But if truth be told, there is no real sense of the Lords resurrection on this day. Its just a day that has been so for generations. How do I know this? Why can I make this judgement? Because if it was about the Lord's resurrection, then it would be about what His resurrection means to us.

But the simple, blatant, fact of the matter is that people refuse to believe they are resurrected in Christ and that sin no longer has dominion over them. They gather on the "resurrection day", the day when Christ triumphed over death, hell, and the grave, and 'preach' that everyone has to still sin, and if not that blatant about it, they will preach something to that effect.

Rom 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Keeping the Sabbath because of a man made written letter of the law? Nope, not a chance. Not anymore than any of the other 9 testimonies of God. But it gives me greater peace knowing that I am serving and living in the one I love. It just serves to know Him better. And who does not want to know the Lord more intimately? I do.

Psa 119:24 Your testimonies are my delight; they are my counselors.

 

[Who Says]

So the question gets brought up, or rather the statement;

You are correct. I believe in "keeping" the law. Why? Because it was placed their by God, in my heart. There is no legalism involved in that. If I "keep" anniversary cards my wife gives me, or letters my father wrote me, I am not doing it out of a sense of 'right or wrong', but I keep them because they mean something special to me.

.......................................

Psa 119:24 Your testimonies are my delight; they are my counselors.

I had to delete from the quote of your post as it with my comment was over the posting limit for number of words. But I am only including your comment so you will know what I am referring to anyway.

The Post you were there commenting on said, "The way I see this, Nathan, is simply put, you are following the law because you "keep" the Sabbath day, that is "keeping the law". There is no way around this, you can not say you do not keep the law, or follow the written law, yet you are doing just that."


As I see it much of this is a dispute of semantics. I think most of us who are true to Christ are really keeping that Sabaath but just hesitate to call it that as we see that to be saying we are yet under that OLd Law. As that is part of the Law that is fulfilled in Christ and in those walking in Christ we are actually keeping the Sabaath when we are faithful to observe the ceasation of our fleshly work to dedicate our time to spiritual things.

The only problem that I see with the comment you are responding to in your post partially quoted above, is that the comment to which you are responding seeks to judge. And that is a violation of what Paul taught of God's love at Romans chapter 14, and it fails to take into consideration what James tells us about the matter, James 4:10 "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11 ¶Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?"

This disputing of what others were doing with regard to that Old Law is what James was having to deal with, as also ocurred in all of the churches to various degree.