The Meaning Of Justified

[dadof10]

I agree that Scripture is the truth and my effort here in these OSAS posts is to find the truth about this doctrine via the Scriptures.

Here's eternal security:

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for (or, because) He who promised is faithful... (Hebrews 10:19-23 NASB)


Here's the warning for those who would step away from the security of faith in Christ:

"24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:24-27 NASB)


Here's an elaboration of the warning to not abandon the security of faith in Christ (which has just been said subjects you to being consumed by fire as an adversary of God).

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.†And again, “The Lord will judge His people.†31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:28-31 NASB)



Here's the exhortation to, instead, keep doing what you were doing:

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

(Hebrews 10:32-38 NASB)


Here's the final warning/ encouragement as to who you really are so you'll find encouragement to stay the course and avoid what the author says happens to those who reject the faith after they have been enlightened and come to repentance:

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39 NASB)



The scriptures speak very plainly. This makes it really hard to accept OSAS doctrine. Based on this passage how can anyone walk away from the gospel of forgiveness and then expect to still be a friend of God? The passage says you will be burned up with the adversaries of God.

This isn't about honest doubt and struggle. This is about purposefully and willfully rejecting the gospel after you have received it and have been sanctified by it. This is not about one day waking up in the morning and realizing God has left you. That can not happen. What can happen (apparently) is we can leave God.

Faith in the surety of Christ's ministry on our behalf is the security of salvation. Take faith in his ministry out of the picture and you have nothing but an expectation of the judgment reserved for God's enemies.

It's very clear here that the condition for security in Christ is faith, an enduring faith...and one that can be seen in what it does.

This is irrefutable. I have yet to see anyone here on the OSAS side give an exegesis of these and other passages refuting these plain words of Scripture. These verses can ONLY be interpreted as "the condition for security in Christ is faith, an enduring faith...and one that can be seen in what it does." I have, on the other hand, seen and been involved in, refutations of the passages that "prove" OSAS, like the "cast out" verse and Eph. 2. This should tell you something.

 

[chessman]

Then, you DON'T believe we have free will after the "deal" has been accepted

Thanks, once again, for telling me what I believe. Odd though, since that’s not what I believe nor is it what I said that I believe. And furthermore, even the statement I made that you quote explains my belief on this issue quite well. But here’s my belief again:
“once we do accept His offer, the result IS eternal life for us. And He actually sustains that part of the deal”
You asked me:

please explain how God keeps us in "the deal" while we still retain the free will to break it. Either we retain free will or God FORCES us to remain in "the deal".

Here’s my further explanation: God is the giver, sustainer and taker of life (not me). That’s His area of expertise.

our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Corinthians 1:8-9 ESV)
John 5:21 (ESV) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
​

We are talking about eternal life (at least in the broader sense of this OP). It’s God’s will to give me and you eternal life. It also happens to be my and your will to accept that eternal life. So, I see no reason why, logically and biblically speaking, that our two wills cannot be in accord on this one issue. I kind-of like the idea of an eternal life. God evidently happens to agree with me on this issue and He is willing to grant it to me (sins an all). Evidently without much of a price in return for that “deal”. Amazing, really, when you think about it. Fatherly, loveJ I suppose.
You say:

Either we retain free will or God FORCES us to remain in "the deal".

Why setup a false dichotomy with ONLY these two options? Why is it not a perfectly reasonable, truthful and even Biblical that both my will and God’s will happens to be in accord with each other (simultaneously) on this particular subject? Here’s just one example from Scripture of what I mean:

Matthew 10:32 (ESV) So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven.
​

It is my will (now that I’m regenerate) to acknowledge Christ. I choose to. But I’d also point out that even Peter did not, at least three times. but did that actually/literally “un-save” him or rather did that act simply make Jesus/God displeased? It just so happens that when I do acknowledge Christ, I receive, I have eternal life. It’s just that simple. With some other simple verses toward this subject being:

John 6:40 (ESV) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 14:13 (ESV) Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
​

My point is not so much that we can just ask for anything, but that God has the power to do most anything He desires. But it’s no small irony that this passage comes directly prior to the Promise of the Holy Spirit. And Jesus saying “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. (John 14:18 ESV)

I asked you these questions in my last post:

[1] Do you think our free will ends there [at initial justification]?
[2] Do you think that after initial justification we have to STAY FAITHFUL by acts of our free will, in order to remain justified, or that God overrides our free will after we are saved in order to keep us "saved"?
[3] Must we cooperate with God's Grace?
Could you please answer them?

Wow. Out of respect for your interaction with me, I did answer them in my last post:
1. First I said

That’s my main point and feedback to your OP. You seem to think “justified” means “saved”… there’s a difference in “justified” versus “saved”.

Then I answered your question (even with the conflation of “justified” to imply “salvation” in it (since I knew what you meant) with:

Now, once we do accept it, it becomes effective to us. Very, very effective. That’s the point. Because God makes us alive, it’s much more effective than if we were in control of making ourselves alive.

So no, I don’t think our free-will ends after our re-birth. We are, however, made anew, a “new Creature” and we also have the Holy Spirit inside us (alongside our free-will) as a helper.

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. John 15:26-27 (ESV)
​

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV)
​

2. Again, you are using the conflation of “justified” with “salvation” and I had already told you what I thought of this question:

That’s another example of you setting a false dichotomy. I just don’t know how to answer questions like that. It’s like “Have you stopped beating your wife?”. There’s just no good answer to a illogically worded question. I DO NOT mean to get started on another “Your rude/I’m rude discussion”. But I do think the way you state the question is not in a good logical form for any discussion of it. Just right off the bat, what about a third option: God doesn’t force His Grace upon anyone (it’s an offer/gift) AND we can either accept it or not?

But I will say that of course I think that once saved, I’ll remain saved and that I we will stay faithful to Christ in the process and remain saved in the process. Else, what is the promise of eternal life that God’s promised for me? That’s just the definition of OSAS. And I see no conflict with me still having free-will in the process. Since God’s in control of my eternal destiny in the first place then there’s nothing illogical about me BOTH having eternal life AND free-will. they are two different things, not mutually exclusive.

John 3:36 (ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;
​

I do believe in the Son.

An example of a true dichotomy (two things that contradict each other) would be to have both the Holy Spirit in us and the wrath of God in us at the same time. That’s why John 3:36 goes on to state there are two different types of people in the world. This verse is clearly not describing the same person moving in-out of salvation, but rather two entirely different types of people.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
​

3. I answered with:

We are able to reject God’s Grace (which is why I do not like the term Irresistible Grace)

If I would have said "we do have to accept Grace" that would be like forcing us. But that's not the way the Bible defines Grace nor what I said. I said we don’t have to accept Grace. Now, once we do accept it, it becomes effective to us.

John 1:16 (ESV) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace
​

This doesn’t say Grace was forced upon us. His Grace is a gift. Both pre and post salvation.

Romans 3:24 (ESV) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,… to be received by faith
​

Which is ironically a passage that brings us back to the specific OP Title (justification’s meaning). Note that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by His grace, which is a gift, through Jesus, which we received by faith. Nothing in there about being justified by our deeds/works (other than our faith). How could it be since Paul just got through saying:

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20 ESV)
​

Plain and simple. We are JUSTIFIED in HIS sight through our faith in Christ.
And I see nothing in James (with his use of Justified) saying that there are actually Biblical examples of people that loss there true faith, much less their salvation. Although James does give examples of people that like to dress up as if they have true faith, yet they do not really have it. And just because people act sinfully (even once saved) should come as no big surprise to anyone. Even Abraham and Rahab sinned. Certainly sins are no surprise to the ONE that saw us Justified in His Sight at our re-birth (even prior). God see’s our whole life, not just a snapshot of our life.

In your opinion, can a person be saved and not justified, or justified and not saved? We are talking about either being "legally made righteous" or saved from sin. Both mean going to Heaven at death, correct?

You use the word “and” here. That’s my point. Saved is not a synonym for justified or vice versa. We don’t use the word as a synonym for “saved”, nor was James. I’ve never said they were not related. I’m simply saying justified has the attribute of “sight”. We can be justified in God’s sight OR we can be justified in human sight. These “justifications” do not have the same effect, however. When we are justified in God’s sight, He see’s us for who we really are inside (and outside) and not just at one moment in time, either.

Luke 16:15 (ESV) And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
​

Versus when we look as others and “justify” them, we can only really see their outside actions (like a FedEx uniform). We can only speculate about how God justifies them.

OK, then once we accept the "offer" we no longer have free will to reject the "deal"?

No, I never said that. You have. I simply said God is with us (His Holy Spirit, that is) as our helper and He’s the one in control of our eternal life/death. I’ve always said that I see your OP point that it’s theoretically possible for someone to reject the deal once the “offer” is accepted. I just don’t see an example of that given in James 2 or anywhere else in Scripture.
I’ve never even said that it’s a “wacko” assumption to make or there’s not even some Scriptures that could potentially be interpreted that way (as in Colossians 1, 1 Corth 15) since they do warn against “falling away”, etc. But if you truly and honestly evaluate them, they DO NOT provide the Biblical evidence that truly saved people will lose their eternal life. People just assume that’s what the warning is there for.

"Do you think we can, by our own free will, cast ourselves out?

I see it as theoretically possible, sure. Especially when I’m in my “I’m in control of my life, mood”. But I don’t see the Biblical support for it actually happening since we are, after all, in God’s hand.

Certainly God will never cast us out, but, in your opinion, do we have the ability, given us by God, to reject Him, even after we are justified?

Frankly, I don’t know. It’s obviously a very deep question. And one that separates opinions of millions of believers (some very smart one’s on both sides) and has for centuries. It seems to me the Bible actually tells us; No, it’s not possible. But wow, that’s hard to believe isn’t it? All I know is the Creator of the entire universe and Giver of life, is quite powerful and if He says He can do that, yet still give His cretures free-will, then maybe He can do just that.

If you believe in free will, it seems consistent to believe that we can reject God if we choose, even after conversion."

Yep, it does seem like it doesn’t it? To me, it’s a deep, deep mystery. (which is why I’m here studying it).

 

[Mitspa]

Well of course we give up our own will at least in part to Gods will, for no man is saved by his own will but by the will of God.

That is a choice that we make, everyday. When we are tempted, when we are in tribulation or so forth. We choose to trust in the Lord and to not succumb to the desires of the flesh.

Well we know that those who walk in the flesh, "free-will" cannot please God, No more than the pharisees who "thought" by their own will they could work righteouesness. The true biblical standard is not that one thinks they can serve God by their own "free-will" but that a man die to all self-will at the Cross. One must become weak to be made strong, and a fool to be made wise. The Cross declares that no man can has the ability by "free-will" to please God. Surrendered will is the biblical standard.

Yes, and by that same free will if one decides to "turn away" from Christ to "another Gospel" then that is their choice.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.


This is what Paul experienced first hand, and was so familiar with as He wrote the Church at Colossi;... if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

I know the Lord Jesus Himself, who was tempted on all sides as we were yet without sin, could have mercy on Peter when He prayed for Him as He knew the eternal consequences -

31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Luke 22:31


24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:24-27


JLB

Well that makes my point. that turning to another gospel. Is turning away from grace and back to law. which is a product of ones false belief that they can by "free-will" keep the standards of the law. Either way one who is walking in free-will is not walking in the truth of the gospel. Which is that only when one denies the will of self and becomes weak of self are they strong in the Lord, by the Power of His Grace.

 

[JLB]

Well we know that those who walk in the flesh, "free-will" cannot please God, No more than the pharisees who "thought" by their own will they could work righteouesness. The true biblical standard is not that one thinks they can serve God by their own "free-will" but that a man die to all self-will at the Cross. One must become weak to be made strong, and a fool to be made wise. The Cross declares that no man can has the ability by "free-will" to please God. Surrendered will is the biblical standard.

Yes, and by that same free will if one decides to "turn away" from Christ to "another Gospel" then that is their choice.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.


This is what Paul experienced first hand, and was so familiar with as He wrote the Church at Colossi;... if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

I know the Lord Jesus Himself, who was tempted on all sides as we were yet without sin, could have mercy on Peter when He prayed for Him as He knew the eternal consequences -

31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Luke 22:31


24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:24-27


JLB

Well that makes my point. that turning to another gospel. Is turning away from grace and back to law. which is a product of ones false belief that they can by "free-will" keep the standards of the law. Either way one who is walking in free-will is not walking in the truth of the gospel. Which is that only when one denies the will of self and becomes weak of self are they strong in the Lord, by the Power of His Grace.

The point is, the person who chooses to do this, does so because they do in fact have a free will.

Whether a person turns away from Christ, by turning back to the law of Moses or a person turns away from Christ by turning aside unto Satan, or a person turns away from Christ by renouncing Him in the face of Martyrdom, its all the same for they have turned away from Christ because they have a choice.



JLB

 

[chessman]

When I read your post, I found myself agreeing with so very much of it, since it had such high Scripture content. But then it left me wondering how this Scripture proves OSAS=no. Additionally, I realized that I had prepared a rather long discussion and reply to Heb 10 while this Thread was being closed, then tired to send it and it got lost/corrupted because the thread was closed. THANKSL to whoever caused that to happen. I even tried to send it via PM, but that didn’t work either. It was a big waste of my time! I’ll try to recover what I wrote when I get back to the PC that I used. But here’s what I think and why:

Here's eternal security:

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for (or, because) He who promised is faithful... (Hebrews 10:19-23 NASB)

I agree this passage is telling us brethren that we should have eternal security, indeed confidence to “enter the Holy Placeâ€! But I don’t see how it proves OSAS=no. In fact, because Hebrews says “by the blood of Jesusâ€, there’s no inherent reason why that same blood should change its power to deliver us. Not that you are saying that it is. But, to me, OSAS is a confidence builder. It’s no crutch to me, to sin more (which biblically and practically speaking, sin destroys confidence).

Here's the warning for those who would step away from the security of faith in Christ:

"24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:24-27 NASB)

Yes there is a warning of “a terrifying judgment and fury of a fireâ€. But are His brethren also His adversaries? No, we are not. Furthermore, Hebrew’s tells us the warning to us (using the example of His adversaries) is to “stimulate one another to love and good deedsâ€. Therefore, I don’t see how this proves OSAS=no. Rather, I see this as showing how God will treat His adversaries. And even if someone doesn’t see Hebrews here contrasting two different treatments for two different types of people; Additionally, technically, this says “If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth…†1) it’s an IF statement. and 2) “receiving the knowledge of truth†is NOT the same thing as “standing by†the knowledge. Maybe you recall how Paul describes a progression of the Gospel from “preachingâ€, to “receiving†to actually standing frim in it (which is technically what saves you). Even the demons have heard and "received" the Gospel.

X I proclaimed to you X you have also received

in X you also stand by X you are also being saved

So that’s at least four good arguments for why this passage does not teach OSAS=no.

Here's an elaboration of the warning to not abandon the security of faith in Christ (which has just been said subjects you to being consumed by fire as an adversary of God).

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.†And again, “The Lord will judge His people.†31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:28-31 NASB)

I don’t plan on “insulting the Spirit of Grace, nor do I “regard as unclean the blood of the covenant†nor “insulted the Spirit of grace†for I know “The Lord will judge His peopleâ€. Here, this would have been a great example for Hebrews to teach if a saved person does this, then OSAS = no. However, what it says is “Anyone†who has set aside the law of Moses… (Love God) and done all these things. Are you implying that means a saved Christian? I would invite you to bold and underline the part of verse 39 that says “We are not of those that shrink back and are destroyedâ€. I don’t think saved people is who Hebrews is talking about here. And I understand it does say “by which he was sanctifiedâ€. Do you think “sanctified†equals “savedâ€? I don’t. Technically, “sanctified†means “set apart†which the author may very well mean “set apart†for other purposes than salvation. That is, “remember the former days†and then quoting O.T. here with Hag 2, would tend to point me to the message of Hag 2. You realize that Hag 2 is talking about “Blessing for a Defiled Peopleâ€!
Not to mention that you have to understand that in verse 39 it specifically says:
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. (Hebrews 10:39 ESV)

Here's the exhortation to, instead, keep doing what you were doing:

32 But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

(Hebrews 10:32-38 NASB)

This does say "we have a possession".

Here's the final warning/ encouragement as to who you really are so you'll find encouragement to stay the course and avoid what the author says happens to those who reject the faith after they have been enlightened and come to repentance[/COL]:

I didn’t find “have been enlightened and come to repentance†in view within Heb 10. I found “remember the former daysâ€, though and went back and re-read Hag 2.

 

[chessman]

The point is, the person who chooses to do this, does so because they do in fact have a free will.

And the Biblcial example of a named person who was once saved to have ever done this [become un-saved] is _______________________? Fill in the blank, please.

 

[JLB]

The point is, the person who chooses to do this, does so because they do in fact have a free will.

And the Biblcial example of a named person who was once saved to have ever done this [become un-saved] is _______________________? Fill in the blank, please.

Please list the Biblical scriptures that contain the word un-saved.


JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Well we know that those who walk in the flesh, "free-will" cannot please God, No more than the pharisees who "thought" by their own will they could work righteouesness. The true biblical standard is not that one thinks they can serve God by their own "free-will" but that a man die to all self-will at the Cross. One must become weak to be made strong, and a fool to be made wise. The Cross declares that no man can has the ability by "free-will" to please God. Surrendered will is the biblical standard.

Yes, and by that same free will if one decides to "turn away" from Christ to "another Gospel" then that is their choice.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.


This is what Paul experienced first hand, and was so familiar with as He wrote the Church at Colossi;... if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

I know the Lord Jesus Himself, who was tempted on all sides as we were yet without sin, could have mercy on Peter when He prayed for Him as He knew the eternal consequences -

31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Luke 22:31


24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:24-27


JLB

Well that makes my point. that turning to another gospel. Is turning away from grace and back to law. which is a product of ones false belief that they can by "free-will" keep the standards of the law. Either way one who is walking in free-will is not walking in the truth of the gospel. Which is that only when one denies the will of self and becomes weak of self are they strong in the Lord, by the Power of His Grace.

The point is, the person who chooses to do this, does so because they do in fact have a free will.

Whether a person turns away from Christ, by turning back to the law of Moses or a person turns away from Christ by turning aside unto Satan, or a person turns away from Christ by renouncing Him in the face of Martyrdom, its all the same for they have turned away from Christ because they have a choice.



JLB

Well, it is always "free-will" that leads man astray from God. It is by a surrendered will that we serve God. The man in "free-will" cannot abide in the truth of the gospel.
So what you are really saying is that "free-will" can only disobey, it cannot obey.


2Pe 2:10

and specially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise lordship. Bold are they , self-willed; they do not fear speaking injuriously of dignities:

2Pe 2:11
when angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring against them, before the Lord, an injurious charge.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,

2Pe 2:13
receiving the reward of unrighteousness; accounting ephemeral indulgence pleasure; spots and blemishes, rioting in their own deceits, feasting with you;

 

[chessman]

[
Please list the Biblical scriptures that contain the word un-saved.


JLB

Of course, if i knew of any i would not believe OSAS was true!

 

[JLB]

So what you are really saying is that "free-will" can only disobey, it cannot obey.

Man has a free will to make a choice to either to submit to God's will that is working within him, or to obey the sinful desires of the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

as it is written -

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


... that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


This was written to Christians!

Christians who had a choice!

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

[
Please list the Biblical scriptures that contain the word un-saved.


JLB

Of course, if i knew of any i would not believe OSAS was true!

You believe OSAS because you have closed your eyes to the truth of the scriptures.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

Paul wrote this letter to the Church at Galatia.

These saved Christians were admonished to walk in the Spirit, as un saved people could not possibly do.

Saved Christians were told in this letter as they were told in the past -

that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


OSAS is a false doctrine!

I admonish you to turn away from both believing and teaching it.


JLB

 

[chessman]

You believe OSAS because you have closed your eyes to the truth of the scriptures.

I admonish you to turn away from both believing and teaching it.


JLB

What's my hair color? What's my eye color? You don't even know if i am blind. Yet you somehow know why i believe in OSAS. Do you any idea how silly your post here is?

Do you have any Scriptural examples of a person giving away their salvation?

Just one name from the Bible?

I admonish you to not admonish me. Of course, you may be God. Are you?

 

[JLB]

You believe OSAS because you have closed your eyes to the truth of the scriptures.

I admonish you to turn away from both believing and teaching it.


JLB

What's my hair color? What's my eye color? You don't even know if i am blind. Yet you somehow know why i believe in OSAS. Do you any idea how silly your post here is?

Do you have any Scriptural examples of a person giving away their salvation?

Just one name from the Bible?

I admonish you to not admonish me. Of course, you may be God. Are you?

The condition of IF in this verse is clear -

to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

This is the main point that I have made.

To present you in a "justified state of being", which is to say holy and blameless, IF indeed you continue in the faith... AND not being moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

We all would do well to heed these things in all soberness, as we see the Day approaching.

Putting aside the fables of men's doctrine, who have gathered unto themselves those who have itching ears to hear those things which console their flesh, and do nothing to keep their hearts steadfast in all righteousness and faith.


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Thanks, once again, for telling me what I believe. Odd though, since that’s not what I believe nor is it what I said that I believe. And furthermore, even the statement I made that you quote explains my belief on this issue quite well. But here’s my belief again:
“once we do accept His offer, the result IS eternal life for us. And He actually sustains that part of the deal”

What in the world does "He actually sustains that part of the deal" mean if not WE DON'T, HE DOES? And if He does the sustaining, can we "un-sustain" ourselves? If the answer is "no", then we do NOT have free will. You didn't say "WE (God and I) sustain the deal", you said HE does it.

First, you say "WE do accept His offer", then say "HE actually sustains..." Any rational person would draw the same conclusion I did. You are trying to divert from your weak argument by repeatedly pulling the indignant "I never said that" card. Let's continue.

Here’s my further explanation: God is the giver, sustainer and taker of life (not me). That’s His area of expertise.

You are saying God "sustains", not you. Did I get this right, or will you be sarcastically telling me in the next post that I'm "telling you what you believe"? I'm going to go out on a limb here and just assume that you meant "God sustains, you don't", OK? (See, two can play the sarcasm game.)

This "sustaining" is not a cooperative act, then, right? If ONLY God does this "sustaining" AFTER INITIAL JUSTIFICATION (which was the context, I can paste it if you want), and YOU DON'T (as you said above), how can you possibly argue that you have free will after initial justification?

This is my point, Chessman.

We are talking about eternal life (at least in the broader sense of this OP).

LOL, really? I thought we were talking about JUSTIFICATION AND ONLY JUSTIFICATION, NOT SALVATION. Doesn't salvation concern eternal life?

I guess it's OK for YOU to broaden the OP when you think it suits your needs, but I must stay within the narrow confines of "justify"

It’s God’s will to give me and you eternal life. It also happens to be my and your will to accept that eternal life. So, I see no reason why, logically and biblically speaking, that our two wills cannot be in accord on this one issue.

I don't either, but we see MANY people who's will is not in accord with God's, some who have "shown their true faith" in the past. The point is not that there are people who's will is in accord with God's, the point is whether once it is in accord, it can un-accord itself.

I kind-of like the idea of an eternal life. God evidently happens to agree with me on this issue and He is willing to grant it to me (sins an all). Evidently without much of a price in return for that “deal”. Amazing, really, when you think about it. Fatherly, loveJ I suppose.

Yep, and like any father (including the Prodigal Son's father), he gives us the free will to CAST OURSELVES OUT. He is our Father, not our puppet-master.

Why setup a false dichotomy with ONLY these two options? Why is it not a perfectly reasonable, truthful and even Biblical that both my will and God’s will happens to be in accord with each other (simultaneously) on this particular subject?

"Happen to be in accord"? It's just a random happenstance, not an act of the will? What you have just described is FREE WILL. Certainly you see this?

It is my will (now that I’m regenerate) to acknowledge Christ. I choose to. But I’d also point out that even Peter did not, at least three times. but did that actually/literally “un-save” him or rather did that act simply make Jesus/God displeased? It just so happens that when I do acknowledge Christ, I receive, I have eternal life. It’s just that simple.

I guess you are the only one who can mix and match justify, save and eternal life as you see fit? How many complaints have you posted about this?

I asked you these questions in my last post:

[1] Do you think our free will ends there [at initial justification]?
[2] Do you think that after initial justification we have to STAY FAITHFUL by acts of our free will, in order to remain justified, or that God overrides our free will after we are saved in order to keep us "saved"?
[3] Must we cooperate with God's Grace?
Could you please answer them?

Wow. Out of respect for your interaction with me, I did answer them in my last post:
1. First I said

That’s my main point and feedback to your OP. You seem to think “justified” means “saved”… there’s a difference in “justified” versus “saved”.

Then I answered your question (even with the conflation of “justified” to imply “salvation” in it (since I knew what you meant) with:

Now, once we do accept it, it becomes effective to us. Very, very effective. That’s the point. Because God makes us alive, it’s much more effective than if we were in control of making ourselves alive.

It's getting really convoluted. I can't keep up. The rest of this is simply a rehash of how "justification is not the same as salvation", which really doesn't speak to the point at all. The only new point is this:

Certainly God will never cast us out, but, in your opinion, do we have the ability, given us by God, to reject Him, even after we are justified?

Frankly, I don’t know. It’s obviously a very deep question. And one that separates opinions of millions of believers (some very smart one’s on both sides) and has for centuries. It seems to me the Bible actually tells us; No, it’s not possible. But wow, that’s hard to believe isn’t it? All I know is the Creator of the entire universe and Giver of life, is quite powerful and if He says He can do that, yet still give His cretures free-will, then maybe He can do just that.

If you believe in free will, it seems consistent to believe that we can reject God if we choose, even after conversion."

Yep, it does seem like it doesn’t it? To me, it’s a deep, deep mystery. (which is why I’m here studying it).

This is a very honest and acceptable answer. You seem like you are struggling with this and I pray you will find the truth. You seem like an intelligent person and I'm confident you will eventually figure it out.

[Edit] Sorry, Chessman. I was laying in bed last night and forgot to add this before I posted it. You said you "don't know" if we have the ability to reject God, or "cast" ourselves out. This seems to me to be THE central point of this topic. If we don't have the free will to reject God, then OSAS is true, He will "sustain" us. If we do have the free will to reject God, then OSAS is false, we can cast ourselves out. Unless you can see a third option, it SEEMS like it should be "OSAS=I don't know" instead of OSAS=yes, don't you think?[Edit]

 

[JLB]

Well that makes my point. that turning to another gospel. Is turning away from grace and back to law. which is a product of ones false belief that they can by "free-will" keep the standards of the law. Either way one who is walking in free-will is not walking in the truth of the gospel. Which is that only when one denies the will of self and becomes weak of self are they strong in the Lord, by the Power of His Grace.

The point is, the person who chooses to do this, does so because they do in fact have a free will.

Whether a person turns away from Christ, by turning back to the law of Moses or a person turns away from Christ by turning aside unto Satan, or a person turns away from Christ by renouncing Him in the face of Martyrdom, its all the same for they have turned away from Christ because they have a choice.



JLB

Well, it is always "free-will" that leads man astray from God. It is by a surrendered will that we serve God. The man in "free-will" cannot abide in the truth of the gospel.
So what you are really saying is that "free-will" can only disobey, it cannot obey.


2Pe 2:10

and specially those who walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise lordship. Bold are they , self-willed; they do not fear speaking injuriously of dignities:

2Pe 2:11
when angels, who are greater in might and power, do not bring against them, before the Lord, an injurious charge.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural animals without reason, made to be caught and destroyed, speaking injuriously in things they are ignorant of, shall also perish in their own corruption,

2Pe 2:13
receiving the reward of unrighteousness; accounting ephemeral indulgence pleasure; spots and blemishes, rioting in their own deceits, feasting with you;

Brother, you have completely left the subject matter in an effort to obscure the simple and straightforward truth of the scriptures.

Please return to the discussion with a mindset to stay with the context of this discussion.

You have said some very enlightening things in the past and I have agreed with you whole-heatedly on most things.

Let's please work through these scriptures at hand.


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

Originally Posted by dadof10
[1] Do you think our free will ends there [at initial justification]?
[2] Do you think that after initial justification we have to STAY FAITHFUL by acts of our free will, in order to remain justified, or that God overrides our free will after we are saved in order to keep us "saved"?
[3] Must we cooperate with God's Grace?
Could you please answer them?

[1] No. We will have free will unto death of the flesh, (at least). The idea being to walk in the spirit, to be an overcomer, to continue to reject the ways of the flesh and not give in to the lusts of the flesh.
[2] Yes, we have to choose (free will) to obey His commandments and continue to live for the spirit. God's grace and mercy knows no bounds and since our members are wrought with sin we will at times even inadvertently sin, however, the Lord will not be very nitpicking and cast you out for minor offenses, yet he will not be mocked! One can not think, oh I'll go ahead and sin tonight and ask forgiveness tomorrow so I can have some fun tonight. God doesn't play those games so we must in fear and trembling and contriteness of heart do our honest best to obey and set aside the desires of the flesh and obey and live for the spirit.
[3] Absolutely yes, we must cooperate with Gods grace and commandments, otherwise we would be living for the flesh and one can not serve two masters.

Very well said Edward.

I will add the idea of Maturity to the equation.

To who much is given much is expected, if you will.

God expects more faithfulness and cooperation from those who have had more time to learn the ways of the Spirit, as well as He must determine who has been exposed to a more quality teaching of these matters.

God does this effortlessly, as He judges each of us with righteous Judgement.

He gives us His Spirit, for it is God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Our part is to stay yielded to His Spirit, to His leading's, to His Love.

For love covers a multitude of sins. [ Call it ]


JLB

 

[dadof10]

Originally Posted by dadof10
[1] Do you think our free will ends there [at initial justification]?
[2] Do you think that after initial justification we have to STAY FAITHFUL by acts of our free will, in order to remain justified, or that God overrides our free will after we are saved in order to keep us "saved"?
[3] Must we cooperate with God's Grace?
Could you please answer them?

[1] No. We will have free will unto death of the flesh, (at least). The idea being to walk in the spirit, to be an overcomer, to continue to reject the ways of the flesh and not give in to the lusts of the flesh.
[2] Yes, we have to choose (free will) to obey His commandments and continue to live for the spirit. God's grace and mercy knows no bounds and since our members are wrought with sin we will at times even inadvertently sin, however, the Lord will not be very nitpicking and cast you out for minor offenses, yet he will not be mocked! One can not think, oh I'll go ahead and sin tonight and ask forgiveness tomorrow so I can have some fun tonight. God doesn't play those games so we must in fear and trembling and contriteness of heart do our honest best to obey and set aside the desires of the flesh and obey and live for the spirit.
[3] Absolutely yes, we must cooperate with Gods grace and commandments, otherwise we would be living for the flesh and one can not serve two masters.

Well put.

 

[lowrab777]

I would like to add that even through out a mature walk in the spirit the devil has his ambushes cut out for us. And sometimes God allows the attack to take place. It is my understanding that God is responsible for allowing much more calamity than people actually give him credit for. the book of Job for instance is one of the main proofs of that.
Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Pro 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Pro 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.
Now I'm not saying that God is doing the calamity he is allowing it to take place, in every cases specifically for his purpose, whether it be for the good or for the bad. And mostly calamity is a product of our own doing.

Now with that much being said, it is my understanding that the word {JUSTIFIED} as deemed by God,.. is fixed to the word {RIGHTEOUS} or righteousness. meaning that only God is able APPROVE of the ways of the heart or the spirits as the scripture calls it.
He is the only one able to make sound and calculated approval of every individual situation because he knows exactly how much of any element he has put into the equation............... for example ..........

 

[lowrab777]

If two men set out to climb a hill from two different sides, one side harder than the other... the one man makes it to the top but the other man dies trying...............
Yet when they are resurected they both recieve a credit for the completion of climbing the hill.

Because God knew that the one would die trying so it was up to him, since he is just, to be merciful and fair to the one he gave the greater burden

 

[lowrab777]

So I have learned to automaticly associate the words RIGHTEOUS and JUSTIFIED with the word APPROVED. it just helps me make better since of the usage of either of those words, because God is the judge of that which is JUST and only he can APPROVE anything to be JUST it is our duty to recognize the things that he decrees and agree with our creator.

However the scripture does encourage us to judge if we are wise according to those things wich are GODLY and JUST as the scripture says.
1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
But in the end God judges us by our judgment allso.
Just because God gave us free will to judge and decide, does not mean that our verdicts can concretely be Gods judgement it is only our perspective judgement. I thank God that his word enforces the fact that he is just and that he does judge according to our deeds.

I would submit to you brothers that he judges us allso according to our circumstance. And that means every one has different elements in there equation but all the weights in the scale belong to him, Pro 16:11 A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work., and Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.