the military is not biblical practice

[shad]

I am sorry, but simply stating one verse/phrase from the Bible does not bring a conclusion. As I stated before, you must take ALL of scripture into account to understand what is being taught. In fact, it's the taking of single scriptures out of context that leads to so much confusion and differences in doctrines amongst Christian religions.

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Do you call this one verse?

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

Please read above my comment.

Which part? My concerns aren't necessarily the same as kevkelsar's. It might be easier to address something I said directly. I was hoping to provide a rather balanced view on this issue.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[shad]

" it is clear that the early Church believed it was wrong to enroll in military service (especially for the Romans).

wow, this is something new, thank you.

At the same time I do see a necessity and approval in the Bible for self defense.

I disagree.

We need military presence for defense but offense becomes a very sketchy matter.this is a brief summary of my attempt at a balanced view on this topic.

~Josh

Why do you say it is a balanced view? Jesus says it simply to "love your enemy." The military kills your enemy. You should know that most churches are watering down Jesus' messages and approving the military is the biggest transgression against Jesus' commandment.

 

[westtexas]

So you continually disregard Jesus' commandment. Jesus' commandments stay the same

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Shad, Lostlamb has given you a verse from Ecc. in a different post which showed you our Lord has said that "there is a time for peace and a time for war". I'll agree that our Lord wants us to "love our enemy" but I'd like to attempt to show you my belief that our Lord also meant what He said when He said that "there is a time for war" We can disect these verses one at a time. These are the words of our Lord, please tell me what you think


Luke 19:27-----But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (KJV)

Westtexas

 

[shad]

I'll agree that our Lord wants us to "love our enemy" but I'd like to attempt to show you my belief that our Lord also meant what He said when He said that "there is a time for war" We can disect these verses one at a time. These are the words of our Lord, please tell me what you think

The military practice does not apply in that verse because it is out of the context with Jesus' command of "love your enemy".

Luke 19:27-----But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (KJV)

[/quote]

Above verse is talking about judgment day. No man can judge other man. Only God is the Judge.

.

 

[cyberjosh]

Why do you say it is a balanced view? Jesus says it simply to "love your enemy." The military kills your enemy. You should know that most churches are watering down Jesus' messages and approving the military is the biggest transgression against Jesus' commandment.

Jesus also said this: "And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one" (Luke 22:36). It would be foolish to believe that the Bible teaches complete pacifism and that we cannot defend ourselves. If a violent enemy encroached upon your land to harm your family how would allowing them to murder you and your family fulfill the righteousness of God? At the moment I'm not talking about state institutions I'm talking practicality in survival. And what do you do with the Old Testament? In the Law of Moses it was permissible if a theif was killed while breaking into a house at night in self-defense. God also provided cities of refuge for those who unintentionally or unpremeditatedly killed another, this includes matters of self-defense. This is to say nothing of actual warfare in the Bible, which is all throughout, and Jesus who will lead the final battle that will slay all the wicked. Mindless pacifism is certainly not what the Bible teaches, but neither is hatred or attacking another (apart from divine decree to attack in warfare, such as is seen in the OT). There is a reasonable balance somewhere.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

shad good topic we had a similar one recently.

What i would like to add is this.

If we are speaking in terms of buisness lets say- and we have ceo's whose job it is to rule the company make the top level decisions, make sure everything runs well that everyone else and everything else is working properly. And we have security guards who work on the bottom floor of the building whose job it is to watch the people who come in and out and see if people are protected and throw out anyone who is caught stealing and wont leave quietly etc..

Now lets say the ceo's decide they would rather be security guards and they leave their jobs, their posts. Their work doesnt get done they go down and hang out at the guard desk talking jokin pullin guns on people when needed.

But there is also a president of this company. Is the president gonna keep the ceo's when they ignore their job and take other peoples jobs upon themselves?

Lets take another situation. Lets say we have a household. We have a Father and He gives out chores to the rest of the house. He tells the oldest sons take out the garbage, watch the younger children when you are around them. He tells the younger children pick up your room and wash dishes. Now if the older sons dont wannt to do the garbage or watch the younger ones but they would rather wash dishes so their job goes undone but the younger ones are too young to carry heavy garbage all the way to the road so that job just goes undone- Isnt that dad gonna come home and punish those older sons?

See this is what is happening. Our Father is the creator of this whole creation. HE sets up goverments they are HIS agents even if they are wicked. HE sets up leaders whether they be base or right3eous.

WE in Christ have been transferred OUT of the kingdoms of this world and INTO the kingdom of HIS SON Jesus. We are NOT of this world we are sojourners here! WE sight for the kingdom of God and that kingdom only. And those weapons are spiritual.

God has unbelievers who are of the kingdoms of this world who he uses for military etc.. to do His will in this earth. He may even use them for our good but we are not called to ignore the commandments of our ingdom, pick up their weapons and fight for their kingdoms which all will pass away while what we are called to do goes undone.

As " americans" you would not travel on vacation or for work to france and fight in their military. You would not go camping in a tent in africa and fight in their military. This is what christians are doing when they go into the military. They are only on this earth camping in tents temporarily, belonging as a citizen in another kingdom but yet fighting war in the flesh for a place they are not citizens of and who are all gonna pass away.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Why do you say it is a balanced view? Jesus says it simply to "love your enemy." The military kills your enemy. You should know that most churches are watering down Jesus' messages and approving the military is the biggest transgression against Jesus' commandment.

Jesus also said this: "And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one" (Luke 22:36). It would be foolish to believe that the Bible teaches complete pacifism and that we cannot defend ourselves.

God Bless,

~Josh

God is our defender, protector, He can make even our enemies to be at peace with us. He can deliver us from all enemies and does and will if we will lean on Him.

Do ya know the reason why Jesus told them go buy a sword? We know for SURE it was not to defend anyone because when peter misunderstood and tried to use it to defend, he got rebuked. But Jesus did tells them WHY to buy a sword.

Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.


He needed them to have a sword so that HE could be RECKONED AMOUNG THE TRANSGRESSORS!

The swords werent to fight or defend anyone, they were to make the others consider Jesus disciples transgressors.

 

[westtexas]

It would be foolish to believe that the Bible teaches complete pacifism and that we cannot defend ourselves.

Agreed.( Proverbs 20:18--Every purpose is established by counsel; and with good advice make war.KJV) Shad, please show us a verse to substantiate your belief that to "love your enemy" means you can never defend yourself or your family.
Westtexas

 

[cyberjosh]

GodspromisesRyes,

When the disciples asked Jesus if two swords were enough Jesus said "enough", basically "enough of such talk" because he wasn't so much talking about physical swords as the need to look out for themselves. When he sent the disciples out the first time (earlier in his ministry - Luke 10:4) he told them to take no money bag or extra cloak, etc. but here he reverses the command knowing that they would be persecuted once he was crucified and ascended. Also when Peter agressively cut off Malchus' ear Jesus told him to put the sword back in his sheath, because he must be crucified, but he did not tell Peter to get rid of the sword. He was also discouraging going on the offensive, telling him he would perish by the sword if he took it up (basically crusading - like Saul did in persecuting the Christians). They probably had the sword because Jesus told them to get it or it was just common to have in those days.

When I studied the third sect of Judaism called the Essenes (the first two being the Pharisees and Saducees) I read in Josephus that it was common for them to carry a bow and arrow with them along roads when traveling because of bandits and robbers. The man in the story of the Good Samaritan was mauled on the road by robbers. It says, "he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead" (Luke 10:30). So because of such hazards it was common to have a weapon for self-defense when traveling. Jesus was not condoning offensive measures but you would be hard pressed to show where we are not allowed to defend ourselves.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[shad]

It would be foolish to believe that the Bible teaches complete pacifism and that we cannot defend ourselves.

Agreed.( Proverbs 20:18--Every purpose is established by counsel; and with good advice make war.KJV) Shad, please show us a verse to substantiate your belief that to "love your enemy" means you can never defend yourself or your family.
Westtexas

I can defend myself and others without the violence. I am Jesus' follower and He is my Lord, so I will obey all His commandments. I will not make excuses when things are inconvenient.

"Love your enemy" is not complicated commandment; it is just not convenient for most of us.

.

 

[westtexas]

God is our defender, protector, He can make even our enemies to be at peace with us. He can deliver us from all enemies and does and will if we will lean on Him.

GPR, I agree with this statement. But do you not also think that when our Lord said "there is a time for peace and a time for war" that He could not bring about this peace THROUGH a solid Christian who is at war?
Westtexas

 

[cyberjosh]

Shad,

If you can please address the Biblical examples I've given in my last two posts. No one is making excuses, as if I wanted bloodshed or to inflict violence (far from it), and I do love my neighbor and even my enemy, but I still see precendent for self-defense.

~Josh

 

[westtexas]

It would be foolish to believe that the Bible teaches complete pacifism and that we cannot defend ourselves.

Agreed.( Proverbs 20:18--Every purpose is established by counsel; and with good advice make war.KJV) Shad, please show us a verse to substantiate your belief that to "love your enemy" means you can never defend yourself or your family.
Westtexas

I can defend myself and others without the violence. I am Jesus' follower and He is my Lord, so I will obey all His commandments. I will not make excuses when things are inconvenient.

"Love your enemy" is not complicated commandment; it is just not convenient for most of us.

.

This is merely your interpretation of "love your enemy". God's Word says "there is a time for war"--you don't believe Him because of your interpretation?
Westtexas

 

[shad]

[

.

This is merely your interpretation of "love your enemy". God's Word says "there is a time for war"--you don't believe Him because of your interpretation?
Westtexas[/quote]


I dont believe Jesus' commandments? It seems the other way around, friend.

It seems very obvious to me you are making it complicated because it is not convenient commandment for you.

.

 

[westtexas]

Shad,

If you can please address the Biblical examples I've given in my last two posts. No one is making excuses, as if I wanted bloodshed or to inflict violence (far from it), and I do love my neighbor and even my enemy, but I still see precendent for self-defense.

~Josh

Cybershark, I think you have made a solid, biblical presentation. I, like you, believe God's Word wants us to avoid conflict whenever possible. Romans 12:18 But I also believe it is biblical that "there is a time for war."
Westtexas

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Indeed there is a time for war.- The world may war whenever God sends them to war, this is not our buisness.

But there is also a time for war for believers! But it is not the worlds wars.

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


We are called ONLY to war in the Spirit- the world is called ONLY to war in the flesh. There is no excuse for a believer who is no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit to war in the flesh except if they did not know better YET.

As far as us being able to defend ourselves we are told:

Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

So we are to deny ourselves, take up crosses and follow Him and not save our own lives.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Again we are to resist not evil- and turn the other cheek. not defendingourselves and NOT trying to deliver ourselves from evil.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


The real question is, If as beleivers we believe that GOD is able to keep us- that HE hears our prayers and will deliver, protect, defend, intervene, keep us from harm, keep loved ones from harm- Why do WE need to get into the flesh and cause harm to someone else? Cannot GOD deliver us from evil men or deliver our families from evil men so that WE dont have to disobey His commandments to us?

And lets say someone does kill us. Is it better that we die in Jesus name peacefully at the hand of the wicked and that wicked man live another day to be saved if possible? Maybe even be saved at the witnesses they see in us who does not reist them at their coming but offers to the willingly what they desire to take by force and die if need be without resustance becasue of faith in Jesus. MANY man have been saved from seeing that kind of fruit in beleivers as they die.

 

[westtexas]

I dont believe Jesus' commandments? It seems the other way around, friend.



.

You did not answer the questions asked of you. We agree that you are to "love your enemy" and avoid conflict. Here is the question to you. If God's Word says "there is a time for war" how do you justify your position that there is NEVER a correct time to protect yourself or someone else?
Westtexas

 

[cyberjosh]

Thank you westtexas.

Oh and just as a matter of wanting to be accurate, versions like the NKJV and NASB for Romans 12:18 literally read "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men" which is a verse I love and cherish, but it also implies that there are somethings obviously beyond our control when peace is broken. However as a matter of fact the Bible does say there is a time for peace and war in Ecclesiastes 3:8, mentioning "a time for war and a time for peace". This is why I also have asked what one does with the Old Testament, as if God has ever changed over time.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[westtexas]

And lets say someone does kill us. Is it better that we die in Jesus name peacefully at the hand of the wicked and that wicked man live another day to be saved if possible? Maybe even be saved at the witnesses they see in us who does not reist them at their coming but offers to the willingly what they desire to take by force and die if need be without resustance becasue of faith in Jesus. MANY man have been saved from seeing that kind of fruit in beleivers as they die.

We can make examples of this all night. What if the robber is about to kill your UNSAVED mother? Is it not time for war knowing that she will NEVER see salvation?
Westtexas