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[_ Old Earth _] The misconception of "the missing links"

So, to make the theory work, you have to invent a new definition, and call it scientific.

That's what it means, in biology. At least you know what it means, now.

Isn't plain English good enough for you?

If you want to discuss science, you have to at least know how words are used in science. Assuming you think the purpose of words is communication.

Doesn't matter though. Having a common ancestor is still part of the definition, so you end up using the same circular reasoning.

Nope. In fact, as you've probably figured out by now, you did the circle. You essentially asked the same question twice. Until I read your current reply, I seriously wondered if you were trying to make a joke.

First you assume that two species have similar traits because they have a common ancestor

No. That would be circular. As I showed you, common traits are often analogous, not homologous. Think bats and pterosaurs. Analogous. Sharks and icthyosaurs. Same traits, but no homology. I'm not trying to nitpick you here; this is essential for you to learn, if you want to understand homology.

then you use that common trait to prove common ancestry.

Read it again. For example, we know that nautilids and clams are members of the same phylum because of numerous homologies. They don't look at all alike, they don't function alike, and the homologous structures have been adapted to different purposes, much as wings, legs, arms, and diggers in mammals are all homologous, even if they are quite different looking. At the same time, wings of pterosaurs and bats are analogous, even though they look similar, because they are made of different structures.

In your version of of the conversation about homologies, the only change you've actually made is to make the evolutionist use more words and act smug at the end.

If you think so, you still haven't figured out your error. You just asked the same question twice.
 
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If you believe that the fabrications you continually post are true, then I'm afraid the shame is on you.

As I showed you, demonstrably true. That's the advantage of knowing what one is talking about. You learn a couple of facts, and then assume you're ready to debate. Then reality keeps hitting you from the blind side. If you did a bit of research before launching one of those stories, you'd be a lot more interesting. And a more challenging opponent. Do it for both of us.

Barbarian observes:
I don't think so. As you learned, the "quotes" were carefully edited to make it look as though the authors believe what they clearly do not believe.

I won't go down the road with this, as I will merely earn myself an infraction of some sort. But this is pathetic, and I regret that you have deluded some people into following your errors.

Rely on facts, and you won't have to worry about getting in trouble. For example, I asserted that the quotes were edited to mislead. Find out what they really said, and then spend some time, showing us that they weren't. Complaining about it, that's really self-defeating.
 
You've been taken, yet again. The one in the inset is merely the first one found, Thewissen's initial fossil. Several other specimens have been found, and from them, we know what the other bones look like.



So nobody is "taken", do you have any evidence for what you say? Facts to go along with your assertions? As @Free Christian pointed out, I've also seen a few other actual vs recreations and am skeptical of missing links.
Here was my source, whom I consider very credible, (someone with a PhD in biology).
http://blueprintsforliving.com/evolution-the-idea-has-so-far-triumphed/
 
So nobody is "taken"

Clearly someone was fooled into thinking there was only one find. One of them was almost 80% complete, so we know a good deal about them.

do you have any evidence for what you say?

Yep. I'm not sure how many they have now, but there are several.

As free Christian pointed out, I've also seen a few other actual vs recreations and am skeptical of missing links.

Let's see... Here's a reconstruction, showing which bones are now known (not all from one specimen).

ambulocetus.gif


Here was my source, whom I consider very credible, (someone with a PhD in biology).
http://blueprintsforliving.com/evolu...far-triumphed/

By 2013, there were certainly more than one specimen. Your guy was just lazy, and didn't check. He's only got the initial find on his website. And there's this odd error:

In other words, the whole of the lumbar, pelvic and caudal parts of Ambulocetus were ‘constructed’ from just one lumbar vertebra, one femur, a small piece of tibia (no fibula, no pelvis)

Possibly he's confused because the pelvis is in four or five pieces in the photograph. But it's sloppy work; the two outlying pieces are obviously part of a pelvis, and the sacrum is obviously there.

So, Doctor Don isn't very good at anatomy. Let's see if we can find out why...

Ah. He has a degree in plant physiology. So his goof is understandable; he's way out of his area of knowledge.
 
No. That would be circular. As I showed you, common traits are often analogous, not homologous.

That's not what you said earlier. Let's look at the whole conversation again (or just the relevant parts of it to save space). TheBeardedDude stated:

But you no more need every link to determine the relationship, than you need to know every individual in your own family history to positively correlate that you are directly descended from your great-great-grandmother.

I responded to him by showing two examples, one hypothetical and one I know in real life, of how you do need every link, otherwise you run into a dead end.

Actually, you do. Imagine an orphan who doesn't know who his real parents were. How is he going to know who his grandparents were, or his cousins, aunts or uncles?

That was the hypothetical one (you ignored the real-life one). You responded (and note the part I put in bold):

Genetic analysis. Routinely solves problems like that. In the case of fossils, one has to look for homologies which will show you how different lines descended.

You clearly said "homologies", not "analogies". Not only that, you also said "one has to". You didn't say "one could". You didn't say "homologies or analogies". You said "one has to use homologies". I pointed out that part of the definition of the word "homology" involves a common ancestor and that using homologies to prove common ancestry was therefor circular reasoning.

In other words, you first determine by definition that similar traits in different species are similar because they have a common ancestor, and then you use these traits, which you assume are derived from a common ancestor to prove that they had a common ancestor.

And then you said:

No. That would be circular.

You admitted that using homologies in this way would be circular, and then you denied that you had done just that.

As I showed you, common traits are often analogous, not homologous.

Sorry Mr. Barbarian, it's there for all to read. You said "one has to use homologies". In our conversation, this is the first time you use the word "analogous". Up till now, we've only been talking about homologies. You can't just deny what you've said when it's shown to be flawed.
The TOG
 
TOG writes:
First you assume that two species have similar traits because they have a common ancestor

Barbarian observes:
No. That would be circular. As I showed you, common traits are often analogous, not homologous. Think bats and pterosaurs. Analogous. Sharks and icthyosaurs. Same traits, but no homology. I'm not trying to nitpick you here; this is essential for you to learn, if you want to understand homology.

That's not what you said earlier.

Yep. Same thing.

Let's look at the whole conversation again (or just the relevant parts of it to save space). TheBeardedDude stated:

Quote Originally Posted by TheBeardedDude View Post
But you no more need every link to determine the relationship, than you need to know every individual in your own family history to positively correlate that you are directly descended from your great-great-grandmother.

I responded to him by showing two examples, one hypothetical and one I know in real life, of how you do need every link, otherwise you run into a dead end.

No. DNA analysis can easily bridge those gaps. Would you like to learn how?

Actually, you do. Imagine an orphan who doesn't know who his real parents were. How is he going to know who his grandparents were, or his cousins, aunts or uncles?

DNA analysis. Very effective and reliable. And it works for just such issues.

Genetic analysis. Routinely solves problems like that. In the case of fossils, one has to look for homologies which will show you how different lines descended.

You clearly said "homologies", not "analogies".

Yep. You got a bit confused there. You got it backwards. Homologies indicate common descent. Common descent doesn't tell you that some kind of similarity is homologous.

Not only that, you also said "one has to". You didn't say "one could". You didn't say "homologies or analogies". You said "one has to use homologies".

Yep. You still haven't quite figured out why homologies are indicators of common descent, while analogous structures are not.

I pointed out that part of the definition of the word "homology" involves a common ancestor

It does. But the part you can't get your mind around, is that common descent is not how we determine homology.

and that using homologies to prove common ancestry was therefor circular reasoning.

And now you know better, hopefully. We don't determine homologies by assuming common ancestry. If we did, we'd suppose that dolphin and shark body shapes are homologous. Do you see now why scientists don't use common descent to determine homologies?

In other words, you first determine by definition that similar traits in different species are similar because they have a common ancestor

Nope. If we did that, we'd think that wolves and thylacines were closely related.

and then you use these traits, which you assume are derived from a common ancestor to prove that they had a common ancestor.

I trust you now understand why scientists don't do it that way.

You admitted that using homologies in this way would be circular, and then you denied that you had done just that.

Nope. I can see how you got that confused, but no, we don't decide if two structures are homologous, by assuming common ancestry. As you see, it would lead us to some rather odd conclusions. Would you like to learn how we know two structures are homologous?

Barbarian observes:
As I showed you, common traits are often analogous, not homologous.

Sorry Mr. Barbarian, it's there for all to read.

I can see your confusion. But you've assumed that scientists determine whether things are homologous by assuming common descent, and I showed you that we determine common descent by finding homologies. You got it backwards. The key is that we don't determine homology by assuming common descent.

Would you like to learn how we know?

In our conversation, this is the first time you use the word "analogous". Up till now, we've only been talking about homologies. You can't just deny what you've said when it's shown to be flawed.

You just got "common descent" and "homology" mixed up.

If you still don't see why this matters, we'll talk about it some more.
 
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I quoted you to mainly get your attention.
I would like to have a conversation with you over the theory of evolution, but I think it would be better if I explain what I know about Evolution before we get into an argument.

From my 2 years with Biology as my major and education as my minor I learned the Following information.

Evolution in biology is how living organisms have changed over time. The word evolution does not imply anything else other than the changing of organisms.

The Theory of Evolution is a complex model that details the mechanisms that are used to analyze evolution in organisms ( remember, all evolution means is change).

Charles Darwin was not the first to propose the idea of Evolution, but the first to detail some of the first mechanics of evolution. Common decent and Natural selection.

Darwin Studied Linnean Taxonomy and learned about homology. Homology was used to classify animals into groups based on physical features. This produced the concepts of mammals, reptiles, birds, etc. This was all in a pre-Mendel Genetics world.

Darwin took this knowledge and spent a few years traveling and studied the wild life that he encountered. He started noticing hierarchies of how organisms interacted in eccosystms. His main areas of study were finches and giant sloths. Darwin recorded the behavior of finches and noticed that specific traits in finches benefited them different depending on the location. Beak size, color, calls, size, etc. all played factors.

After more years of study Darwin put together the book The Origin of Species detailing the mechanics known as selection pressures. Darwin drew the line between Artificial and Natural selection. Artificial Selection had been used for years by farmers, breeders, and ranchers to cultivate and breed specific traits in organisms. Darwin pointed out that Natural selection was a process that was slower than artificial selection, but the out come was similar. Organisms that adapt best to their environment live to have offspring. The organisms best suited to their ecosystem lead the species to change to be better suited. This can cause a fork where a species separates into 2 or more branches where organisms specialize into specific niches. For Instance Darwin noted that the same species of finch adapted differently to dessert, forest, and plain eccosystms. What worked in one ecosystem didn't work in all. natural selection would later be split into various other pressures such as sexual selection, that deals more with attraction to its own species, and ecological selection that dictates ability to adapt to surroundings.

However Darwin didn't understand Punctuated Equilibrium nor Genetics. Ghould discovered that species can adapt and change rapidly, instead of slowing ala Darwin, if a new niche is opened up to organisms or an event that causes mass extinction or isolation occurs. For instance during the Cambrian explosion there were many different types of organisms that adapted with jaws, boneless bodies, various different exoskeletons, etc. when these types of adaptations where new. This caused a rapid changing in organisms trying to adapt. However during the end of the Cambrian, specific forms that showed to be the most useful and adaptable became dominant and the process slowed down. Until the invasion of land several millions of years later.

Mendel discovered Genetics and genes. Mendel held experiments where he kept track of the descendants of pea plants. Mendel noted that pea plants had a specific frequency when it came to variation. In short Mendel discovered how to track the likeliness a pea plant would be cultivated to have specific characteristics. Mendel called these characteristics genes. This was a primitive way of explaining genetics, but it was revolutionary for its time.

With the discovery of; Theory of Genetics, Theory of Evolution, and the Theory of Biological Taxonomy, Biologists created 2 new fields of study Evolutionary Biology and Phylogeny. Evolutionary Biology studies what triggers evolution. In short Evo Biology studies selection pressures, the founder effect, the Bottle neck effect, and has come up with equations on how to measure of both change in a species/ ecosystem.

Phylogeny is a fusion of Genetics and taxonomy. Phylogenetic studies track the genetic decent of organism. This creates hierarchies based on genetic markers. In phylogenetic, not only are the homologous structures studied, but the genetic sequences and similarities from DNA. The rules of genetics first penned by Mendel, and later expanded upon by others are used as the criteria for organizing organisms into classifications and relation.

Phylogeny is backed up and tested by both Geology and Chemistry. Geology has been studying the age of rocks and their formation. Geologists use dating methods discovered by Chemists of isotopes. For instance a geologist can measure the age of rocks by checking the decay of isotopes within the rocks. This gives and approximate age of the settlement of Rocks.

This can then be used to date fossils found in these layers of rock. A phylogeneticist can then check to see where in the chart the organisms from that time frame fits and where it relates. Helping to expand the knowledge of both decent and taxonomy.

With all of this together biologists managed to piece together a pretty solid theory of both common decent and biological order. Due to several lines of organisms being discovered, and even the genetic research being done on organisms, there is not doubt that organisms have evolved and ample reasons to trust the assertion that all organisms descended from a common ancestor.

Any questions? :)
 
If you still don't see why this matters, we'll talk about it some more.

You modify definitions of common words to suit your needs, you twist people's words and when your logic is shown to be faulty, you deny every having made a claim even though it's there for all to see. You're not worth spending more time on, at least, not in this discussion. I have a challenge of sorts in mind, which I will probably post soon in new thread. Feel free to accept the challenge if you think you're up to it. It has to do with definitions.
 
If you still don't see why this matters, we'll talk about it some more.

You modify definitions of common words to suit your needs, you twist people's words and when your logic is shown to be faulty, you deny every having made a claim even though it's there for all to see. You're not worth spending more time on, at least, not in this discussion. I have a challenge of sorts in mind, which I will probably post soon in new thread. Feel free to accept the challenge if you think you're up to it. It has to do with definitions.
What do you think of my post and how I used definitions?
 
You modify definitions of common words to suit your needs

I showed you the definition of the words as they are used in science. If you want to talk science, you'll have to use words as they are used by scientists. Assuming you want to communicate effectively.

, you twist people's words and when your logic is shown to be faulty

You just misunderstood what I said. And I clarified it for you. As you learned, scientists do not use common descent to identify homologies. They use homologies to identify common descent.

you deny every having made a claim even though it's there for all to see.

Go back and read it again. It's very clear.

(Barbarian, regarding how homologies show common descent)
In the case of fossils, one has to look for homologies which will show you how different lines descended.

You're not worth spending more time on, at least, not in this discussion.

At least do yourself a favor and learn how scientists identify homologies and use them in learning about evolution. It would make you a lot more effective in these discussions.

I have a challenge of sorts in mind, which I will probably post soon in new thread. Feel free to accept the challenge if you think you're up to it. It has to do with definitions.

Word games aren't all that interesting. But let's see how it goes for you.
 
If you still don't see why this matters, we'll talk about it some more.

You modify definitions of common words to suit your needs.
Actually barbarian hasn't. I think the problem is you are addressing Physical homology while Barbarian is talking about Genetic homology. For instance if an organism has a genetic homology and the only known way that genetic information is pased in both zoology and botany is through reproduction. There is ample reason to believe all that share the homologous DNA sequence are related.
 
I'm speaking of anatomical homologies, although genetic homologies also apply.

Let me simplify it a bit.
Bat:
bats_lg.jpg


Pterosaur:
Pterosaur-Facts.jpg


Both are obviously four-legged, so they are homologous for that trait; the anatomic details of shoulder, pelvis, number of long bones, etc. establish this fact. But, their wings, although superficially alike, are not homologous. The bats have wings evolved from hands, while the pterosaurs have wings evolved from one finger. Bat wings and pterosaur wings are analogous, even as bat limbs and pterosaur limbs are homologous.

Here's another example:

homology.jpg


Bird wing, dolphin fin, human arm. The human is closest to the primitive tetrapod form. But notice the wing and the fin, although superficially very much unlike the arm, have the same anatomical features that show them to be homologous to our limbs. Hence, we know we have a common tetrapod ancestor.

Does that help?
 
Let's see... Here's a reconstruction, showing which bones are now known (not all from one specimen).

ambulocetus.gif


Here was my source, whom I consider very credible, (someone with a PhD in biology).
http://blueprintsforliving.com/evolu...far-triumphed/

By 2013, there were certainly more than one specimen. Your guy was just lazy, and didn't check. He's only got the initial find on his website. And there's this odd error:

In other words, the whole of the lumbar, pelvic and caudal parts of Ambulocetus were ‘constructed’ from just one lumbar vertebra, one femur, a small piece of tibia (no fibula, no pelvis)

Possibly he's confused because the pelvis is in four or five pieces in the photograph. But it's sloppy work; the two outlying pieces are obviously part of a pelvis, and the sacrum is obviously there.

So, Doctor Don isn't very good at anatomy. Let's see if we can find out why...

Ah. He has a degree in plant physiology. So his goof is understandable; he's way out of his area of knowledge.

Apparently, you did not click on my link to "blueprints for living" but assumed I was referring to Dr Don Batten from "creation.com". I linked to Dr Danial Moran : http://blueprintsforliving.com/the-author/

http://blueprintsforliving.com/evolution-the-idea-has-so-far-triumphed/

Who has a PhD in molecular and cellular biology. Even with 80%, none of what you posted addressed any of the objections raised by Dr Dan.
 
Any questions?

Yes, I would like to ask you something, but first some background.

Way back at the end of the last century (about 13 years ago), I went to London and visited some of the museums there. I remember one exhibit I saw, but I'm not sure which museum it was in. It was either the Natural History Museum or the Science Museum. It consisted of 4 pictures and some text. Unfortunately, I don't remember all the details, but here is what I remember.

There were two pictures of what at first appeared to be the same species of dandelion and portraits of two biologists. By looking very closely at the dandelion pictures, I was able to see some minor differences. The text explained that one of the biologists (unfortunately I've forgotten both names) said that the two types of dandelion were different enough to be regarded as separate species, while the other believed they were similar enough that they should not only not be considered different species, but not even subspecies. The latter biologist said that the differences were just variability within a single species.

If scientists can't even agree on living specimens, how can we trust them with extinct species? Here we have two living varieties (or species, depending on your point of view) of dandelion. We can do all manner of experiments on them - we can cross breed them, we can examine their DNA and do whatever else we can think of to determine their relationship - and scientists still can't agree whether they are one species or two. If they can't agree when they have living specimens to experiment on, how can we trust their judgment when they don't even have bones, but just rocks that look like bones (aka fossils) that they can't do any biological experiments on, but must judge subjectively. For example, was Neanderthal man a different species from us, a subspecies or simply an extinct race? Let's see what Wikipedia has to say:

Wikipedia article: Neanderthal said:
Neanderthals are classified either as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species of the same genus (Homo neanderthalensis).

It seems that there's not agreement there either. But it doesn't stop there. I once knew a Neanderthal. That's right - a living, breathing Neanderthal. I lived in an apartment building, and a guy in one of the other apartments looked just like the pictures you see in scientific articles of Neanderthals. If you were to find his skull fossilized, you would think it was of a Neanderthal. Could it be that they weren't even a subspecies, but a(mostly) extinct race?

While your definition of the word "evolution" is technically correct, when you put the words "the theory of" in front of it, it changes the meaning considerably. It's not only about change, but about the origin and development of species. For the theory to work, one species has to be able to change so much over time, that it is considered a different species. It seems to me that, to determine the validity of this theory, we need a definition of the word "species". But how can we ever determine the theory's validity, or even have a rational discussion about it, if categorization into species is a matter of opinion?
The TOG
 
There were two pictures of what at first appeared to be the same species of dandelion and portraits of two biologists. By looking very closely at the dandelion pictures, I was able to see some minor differences. The text explained that one of the biologists (unfortunately I've forgotten both names) said that the two types of dandelion were different enough to be regarded as separate species, while the other believed they were similar enough that they should not only not be considered different species, but not even subspecies. The latter biologist said that the differences were just variability within a single species.

If scientists can't even agree on living specimens, how can we trust them with extinct species?

This is actually a good thing to ask. It's based on the misconception that new species are somehow poofed into existence suddenly. That hardly ever happens, because most speciations are gradual. Two separated populations of the same species increasingly diverge and become less and less reproductively compatible. So we should, if Darwin was correct, have quarter-species, and half-species, and so on, and at some point, it's a judgement call as to whether or not they've diverged sufficiently to call them a new species.

It get more complicated than that. We have clines and ring species, where any two adjacent populations can interbreed, but those populations at the extremes of the range, are completely reproductively infertile with each other. So long as the intermediate populations are alive, it's still one species. But if one or more of the intermediate populations dies out, then there are two species.

Here we have two living varieties (or species, depending on your point of view) of dandelion. We can do all manner of experiments on them - we can cross breed them, we can examine their DNA and do whatever else we can think of to determine their relationship - and scientists still can't agree whether they are one species or two.

Which, if you think about it, would have to be, if Darwin was right.

If they can't agree when they have living specimens to experiment on, how can we trust their judgment when they don't even have bones, but just rocks that look like bones (aka fossils) that they can't do any biological experiments on, but must judge subjectively.

Good point. In all likelihood, many fossil organisms, which we classify as one species, probably represent several. Only when there is sufficient anatomical change to confirm that speciation has occurred, can we say that speciation has happened. And even then, there might be two morphs of the same species. This is another reason why transitionals are not common for species, but are abundant at higher taxa.

For example, was Neanderthal man a different species from us, a subspecies or simply an extinct race?

It's a close call. We do have the Neandertal genome sequenced sufficiently to show that they are far from the normal human genome. They are, however, much closer to us than chimpanzees, which are pretty close, in the high 90percent similar, depending on the particular measure you use.

It is now clear that our ancestors could interbreed with them, even if that didn't happen very often. My guess is that they were only partially reproductively compatible, and so there weren't offspring most of the time.

So, it might be like polar bears and grizzly bears, who diverged maybe 10,000 years ago, and can still interbreed, even if they are quite different in many ways.
There was a third species, the Denisovans, for whom we have DNA, and that might help illuminate the issue a bit.

It seems that there's not agreement there either. But it doesn't stop there. I once knew a Neanderthal. That's right - a living, breathing Neanderthal. I lived in an apartment building, and a guy in one of the other apartments looked just like the pictures you see in scientific articles of Neanderthals. If you were to find his skull fossilized, you would think it was of a Neanderthal.

Unlikely. I, for example, am descended from Northern Europeans, have red hair, freckled arms even as an old man. I have a large head, prominent nose,
a robust skeleton, and until the last decade, was a good deal stronger than most people. All of these suggest Neandertal genes.

But I would be well outside the range of a Neandertal in both anatomy and genetics. I just happen to be a lot more robust than most modern humans.

Could it be that they weren't even a subspecies, but a(mostly) extinct race?

Keep in mind, there are no biological human races today. There is more variation within any "race" you might define, than there is between them. It's probably like bears or those dandelions. Something not fully evolved as a different species. I think they were for a couple of reasons. For one, even though they lived in the same area as anatomically modern humans for many thousands of years, there really wasn't much gene flow our way. This is really unlike humans, who enthusiastically share genes. The second thing is that very early Neandertals looked more like us than more recent ones. So they were clearly going off on their own, much earlier than previously thought.

While your definition of the word "evolution" is technically correct, when you put the words "the theory of" in front of it, it changes the meaning considerably. It's not only about change, but about the origin and development of species. For the theory to work, one species has to be able to change so much over time, that it is considered a different species.

And from time time, we're paying attention when that happens. Would you like to know about some of them?

It seems to me that, to determine the validity of this theory, we need a definition of the word "species".

For eukaryotes, "a population organisms that are interfertile in the wild", the biological species concept, is the most useful one.

But how can we ever determine the theory's validity, or even have a rational discussion about it, if categorization into species is a matter of opinion?

As you see, it's only a matter of opinion where the divergence has been relatively recent. The longer the divergence goes, the easier it is to determine speciation. You should know that most creationist organizations freely admit the fact of speciation. The Institute for Creation Research, for example, says that all the present species of animals evolved by hyperevolution over few thousand years, from a few "kinds" on the Ark.
 
There were two pictures of what at first appeared to be the same species of dandelion and portraits of two biologists. By looking very closely at the dandelion pictures, I was able to see some minor differences. The text explained that one of the biologists (unfortunately I've forgotten both names) said that the two types of dandelion were different enough to be regarded as separate species, while the other believed they were similar enough that they should not only not be considered different species, but not even subspecies. The latter biologist said that the differences were just variability within a single species.

If scientists can't even agree on living specimens, how can we trust them with extinct species?
Species in itself is very debated because the origin of classification isnt neat and tidy. We as humans were naming species before we had acces tongenetics. Classifying organisms is based on both homology and genetics. when looking at groups , biologists are able to group known species together by both physicl and gentic similarities.
For example, was Neanderthal man a different species from us, a subspecies or simply an extinct race? Let's see what Wikipedia has to say:
I'd rather not use Wikipedia. Biologists actually have Neanderthal DNA. Genetically Neanderthal were actually less similar to us than chimps. However there is still light traces of their DNA within us since it was possible for us to have off spring.


It seems that there's not agreement there either. But it doesn't stop there. I once knew a Neanderthal.
No you didnt. Their liniage is long gone. Your friend might have some physical similarities but I bet his brain case would be ver cromagnen.

While your definition of the word "evolution" is technically correct, when you put the words "the theory of" in front of it, it changes the meaning considerably. It's not only about change, but about the origin and development of species. For the theory to work, one species has to be able to change so much over time, that it is considered a different species. It seems to me that, to determine the validity of this theory, we need a definition of the word "species". But how can we ever determine the theory's validity, or even have a rational discussion about it, if categorization into species is a matter of opinion?
The definition of species is not opinion. There is a loose definition of species because there are tons of exceptions to the rule. Considering the term species was coined before the discoveries of genetics, this is to be expected. Really all that needs to be observed is linkages and how they have adapted and split. Even if we don't have a solid definition of species, organisms do demonstrably change.
 
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