The Mormon Belief of Deification

[Jamesone5]

The book, Mormon Doctrine, was a scholarly pursuit by an apostle. It has never been accepted by the church as official “Mormon Doctrine”, and for that reason he was chastised by his superiors for naming it so. Most of what is in this book is accurate, but some things are only his opinion. In light of some more recent statements by Presidents of the church, I would say that he is not completely accurate in his assessment of this issue. I know of examples in the scriptures that I would interpret as contradictory to what he says here. What is very clear is that the whole matter can only be judged by God on a case by case basis. And again, I see this as an example of someone rejecting the atonement, not a limitation of it. If you think there are many in the different churches sitting in the pews who are included in what McConkie is referring to here, you are assuming a very exaggerated interpretation of his words. That interpretation is certainly not real Mormon doctrine.

Do you think you are telling me things I do not already know? In the late 1960's after that book came out, I partially remember a Sunday School lesson that was devoted to not totally trusting in works that were not Officially recognized or endorsed by the Church and this particular book was really the main focus of this Lesson. If you will note, I only used references from his book that were of Official Church Doctrine---not McConkies opinions themselves. With this in mind, it was how God showed me the way out of the Church--not relying on opINonS of even the most avid Relievers in the LDS Church but rather using OFFICAL CHURCH DOCTRINE against the Holy Bible.

What I was referring to was simply that other Christian belief systems limit the scope of the atonement to only those who have a chance to hear about it in this life. That cuts out most of the human race. My point was that that is limiting the atonement much more than saying it doesn’t cover hard core Murderers, even if that was an official Mormon belief.

The thing is that in my arguments here, I rely on what Joseph Smith and prophets of the Church said about in in the 1800's and not on what the Church teaches now.

The only reason blood atonement came up is that you used it as an example to counter my point that Mormon doctrine limits the atonement less than other Christian belief systems. So it is the discussion on this little known doctrine that has sidetracked this whole thread. Not the other way around

Going back a few pages on this thread, I find that I first made the statement that Mormon atonement was limited. You asked me to prove it and then is where I pointed out the Blood Atonement Belief. You can avoid it all you want but it still was taught at one time in the Church which brings me to the question: How can you make the solid testimony that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God who Restored the True Church here on earth and yet, disallow some of the early Doctrines he taught? No Manifesto in the Church's history that supposedly said God changed His mind on this Doctrine in particular, yet you still likely esteem Joseph Smith in your testimony.

Mormon doctrine agrees with everything you say here except the part that claims Mormonism misses the grace part of it all. Your limited understanding of the Mormon belief on this subject may miss the grace part of it, but my understanding of Mormon belief places it right up front. You are just exposing your ignorance of true Mormon doctrine here.

Not so much ignorance of Mormon Doctrine but rather an understanding that claims by the Mormon Church are not what they seem

It is true that receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as taught in Acts 8:17-18 is not generally practiced by most Christian churches. It is no secret that Mormons teach that they are the only ones who have actual authority from Jesus Christ to perform ordinances by the laying on of hands. Therefore it is true that the Gift of the Holy Ghost can only be experienced by baptized members of the church. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is the promise of His constant companionship as long as and to the degree that we accept its influence. But we believe that God can and does inspire and communicate with all of His children through the Light of Christ continually and the Holy Ghost periodically.

Here's the thing--you or I can "claim" anything, but in actuality our claims do not automatically make those claims Absolute Truth. The Mormon Church makes a lot of claims and always it becomes the question--are those claims really from God?

You show your lack of understanding of Mormon doctrine on this issue. We also believe that “we are simply lost without the continuing grace of Christ”

Sometimes when one has the scales removed from their eyes, you find some of those claims one was previously taught to not be so anymore.

And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another. I can’t believe you criticize my quoting a dictionary definition because it didn’t come from the Bible when all I was doing was challenging your using another dictionary in a limited way to define the same term. Isn’t that just a little disingenuous?

This is really simple to respond to--you are simply reading a studying the Bible through the prism of Mormon Doctrine and then in a Subjective rendering , the Bible will continue to say what you want it to say.

As to going to Secular source for understanding versus going to God's Word---this really is such a completely elemental question that I won't comment further on it.

 

[proveallthings]

Do you think you are telling me things I do not already know? In the late 1960's after that book came out, I partially remember a Sunday School lesson that was devoted to not totally trusting in works that were not Officially recognized or endorsed by the Church and this particular book was really the main focus of this Lesson. If you will note, I only used references from his book that were of Official Church Doctrine---not McConkies opinions themselves. With this in mind, it was how God showed me the way out of the Church--not relying on opINonS of even the most avid Relievers in the LDS Church but rather using OFFICAL CHURCH DOCTRINE against the Holy Bible.

I agree that this is a perfect example of why people leave the church. You get distracted by the least important issues that are not very well understood by even general authorities and miss the major things that really matter. The Bible isn’t even very clear on this. The reason that this doctrine is unimportant to be aware of or to know the exact plan of God with it, is that it is not anything that can be acted upon by any of us on earth and it affects such a few, rare number of people. This is majoring in minor things.

That is why there is not a consensus among leaders. The only thing we need to know is that murder is a really bad thing and to stay as far away from it as possible. So, you say a reason to reject the LDS church is that it believes that some minute number of people might be excluded from being saved by the atonement of Christ. But you replace it with a doctrine that excludes the vast majority of the human race from even having a chance. Where is the logic in that?

Going back a few pages on this thread, I find that I first made the statement that Mormon atonement was limited. You asked me to prove it and then is where I pointed out the Blood Atonement Belief. You can avoid it all you want but it still was taught at one time in the Church which brings me to the question: How can you make the solid testimony that Joseph Smith was a True Prophet of God who Restored the True Church here on earth and yet, disallow some of the early Doctrines he taught? No Manifesto in the Church's history that supposedly said God changed His mind on this Doctrine in particular, yet you still likely esteem Joseph Smith in your testimony.

Again, you are exaggerating something that is simply unimportant. Jesus called this straining at gnats while swallowing camels. And you miss the part where I clarified my statement about the Mormon belief of the atonement not being limited, that I meant it is not limited compared to your Christian beliefs. You have completely ignored my clarified meaning and have avoided dealing with the reality it reveals.

[/B]

Mormon doctrine agrees with everything you say here except the part that claims Mormonism misses the grace part of it all. Your limited understanding of the Mormon belief on this subject may miss the grace part of it, but my understanding of Mormon belief places it right up front. You are just exposing your ignorance of true Mormon doctrine here.

Not so much ignorance of Mormon Doctrine but rather an understanding that claims by the Mormon Church are not what they seem

It is quite the opposite on this issue. Mormon doctrine on grace is not at all what our critics would like to make everyone think.

It is true that receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as taught in Acts 8:17-18 is not generally practiced by most Christian churches. It is no secret that Mormons teach that they are the only ones who have actual authority from Jesus Christ to perform ordinances by the laying on of hands. Therefore it is true that the Gift of the Holy Ghost can only be experienced by baptized members of the church. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is the promise of His constant companionship as long as and to the degree that we accept its influence. But we believe that God can and does inspire and communicate with all of His children through the Light of Christ continually and the Holy Ghost periodically.

Here's the thing--you or I can "claim" anything, but[/B] in actuality our claims do not automatically make those claims Absolute Truth. The Mormon Church makes a lot of claims and always it becomes the question--are those claims really from God?

You are absolutely right. That is why the most common thread throughout all of Mormonisms truth claims is “don’t take our word for it. Apply James 1:5 and learn for yourselfâ€.

But your statement applies equally to Evangelical claims. The way Evangelicals present it is, “we are the only ones smart enough or sincere enough to really understand the Bible, so if you disagree with us, you are wrong and need to study the Bible more carefully until you can logically agree with our interpretation.†The problem with this is that any group that uses the Bible can make the same claim. So who is to say which group’s interpretation is the same as God’s interpretation?

You show your lack of understanding of Mormon doctrine on this issue. We also believe that “we are simply lost without the continuing grace of Christâ€

Sometimes when one has the scales removed from their eyes, you find some of those claims one was previously taught to not be so anymore.

So it is easier to understand what believing Mormons actually believe if you are not one of them. This is an interesting statement, when I have witnessed first hand that there are doctrines of the church you clearly do not understand. You have either forgotten and accepted the theories of uninformed critics or you never understood them in the first place.

And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another. I can’t believe you criticize my quoting a dictionary definition because it didn’t come from the Bible when all I was doing was challenging your using another dictionary in a limited way to define the same term. Isn’t that just a little disingenuous?

This is really simple to respond to--you are simply reading a studying the Bible through the prism of Mormon Doctrine and then in a Subjective rendering , the Bible will continue to say what you want it to say.

And you are simply reading and studying the Bible through the prism of Evangelical doctrine and then in a subjective rendering, the Bible will continue to say what you want it to say.

As to going to Secular source for understanding versus going to God's Word---this really is such a completely elemental question that I won't comment further on it.

You won’t comment on it further because it was you that violated your own standard.

 

[George Muller]

So, as to keeping the Commandments in 24/7 thing for the rest of our lives—it just isn’t going to happen because of our sin nature and at the end of our lives, we have lost the battle as to always keeping the Commandments and thus according to your response, we didn’t love Christ as we should have—also according to Mormon Doctrine. With all that, “total repentance†never happens because we keep breaking the "Law". We are simply lost without the continuing Grace of Christ..

Some of the ex-mormons I have heard have such a real understanding of Gods grace, because of the great bondage that was laid upon them by this group.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Amazing Grace to you brother.

I liken it to being released from a Prison of sorts or going from an existence where one was previously under this dark, consuming cloud and suddenly finding the sunshine. My whole Journey out of the Church started with the death of my 19 year old son where God really got my attention and yes God's Grace, the Peace that passes all understanding and so many other Blessings in God helping me to find the True Christ of the Bible are really becoming far more clear to me.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, Amen. You seem best able to confront the doctrines of this religion, having been in the bondage of these things, I will watch and pray for you that Gods Word might become as a flaming sword, that as you stand in the truth and speak the truth Gods Spirit would begin to convict the heart of this man, who in his great pride has come into the assembly of the Living God to promote doctrines of devils. May our Lord be exalted above every lie of satan.

 

[Jamesone5]

Quote Originally Posted by Jamnesone5 View Post Do you think you are telling me things I do not already know? In the late 1960's after that book came out, I partially remember a Sunday School lesson that was devoted to not totally trusting in works that were not Officially recognized or endorsed by the Church and this particular book was really the main focus of this Lesson. If you will note, I only used references from his book that were of Official Church Doctrine---not McConkies opinions themselves. With this in mind, it was how God showed me the way out of the Church--not relying on opINonS of even the most avid Relievers in the LDS Church but rather using OFFICAL CHURCH DOCTRINE against the Holy Bible. I agree that this is a perfect example of why people leave the church. You get distracted by the least important issues that are not very well understood by even general authorities and miss the major things that really matter. The Bible isn’t even very clear on this. The reason that this doctrine is unimportant to be aware of or to know the exact plan of God with it, is that it is not anything that can be acted upon by any of us on earth and it affects such a few, rare number of people. This is majoring in minor things. That is why there is not a consensus among leaders. The only thing we need to know is that murder is a really bad thing and to stay as far away from it as possible. So, you say a reason to reject the LDS church is that it believes that some minute number of people might be excluded from being saved by the atonement of Christ. But you replace it with a doctrine that excludes the vast majority of the human race from even having a chance. Where is the logic in that?

If this Doctrine was the only one that causes me to really question the Mormon church , it might have been a different matter., but alas it was one of many. In fact, the two Doctrines I concentrated on in my studies before I made the decisions to leave the Church was the Eternal Progression Belief and "Who Christ Is in Mormonism"---still convinced that those two Beliefs are where the major errors are in what i was taught in the Mormon Church.
The other issue on this blood Atonement things is that "murder" goes much deeper than just just taking someone's life--we can have murder in our hearts. Jesus tells us in Matthew 5 :21,22 that even being angry with our brother causes us judgement on this Commandment. 1 John 3:15 tells us very plainly that you hate your brother, you are a murderer and have no eternal life abiding in you, so according to the blood atonement belief, it isn't as "rare" as you imply. "Thou shall not Murder" simply applies to many of us until we found forgiveness and even then, we can have anger and even hatred in our hearts until we allow Christ to remove those "murderous thoughts"

Originally Posted by proveallthings View Post It is true that receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands as taught in Acts 8:17-18 is not generally practiced by most Christian churches. It is no secret that Mormons teach that they are the only ones who have actual authority from Jesus Christ to perform ordinances by the laying on of hands. Therefore it is true that the Gift of the Holy Ghost can only be experienced by baptized members of the church. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is the promise of His constant companionship as long as and to the degree that we accept its influence. But we believe that God can and does inspire and communicate with all of His children through the Light of Christ continually and the Holy Ghost periodically. Here's the thing--you or I can "claim" anything, but[/B] in actuality our claims do not automatically make those claims Absolute Truth. The Mormon Church makes a lot of claims and always it becomes the question--are those claims really from God? You are absolutely right. That is why the most common thread throughout all of Mormonisms truth claims is “don’t take our word for it. Apply James 1:5 and learn for yourself”. But your statement applies equally to Evangelical claims. The way Evangelicals present it is, “we are the only ones smart enough or sincere enough to really understand the Bible, so if you disagree with us, you are wrong and need to study the Bible more carefully until you can logically agree with our interpretation.” The problem with this is that any group that uses the Bible can make the same claim. So who is to say which group’s interpretation is the same as God’s interpretation?

If your will note my screen name is supposed to be Jamesone 5, but somehow I got an "N" in it when I signed up. Once again, before my decision to leave there was much study--mainly on recognized Mormon sources. Very much avoided the so-called anti-Mormon sources because I did simply did not want the Opinions of man to sway me. As to "who's to say which interptretation is of God"the "Who" in that is God and then a person has the assurance that one is on Solid Rock instead of sinking sand in our Beliefs. One error that most Mormons seem to make is that for the rest of Evangelical Christianity, we are all led or taught by Doctrines to believe certain things or personally led to interpret the Bible in certain ways. The Holy spirit that I found leads an individual, not a Religion because God has the power to reach any of us, without any sort modern-day prophet to supposedly interpret all the Bible for us. You are really "bound" by the interpretations of Joseph Smith and most Mormons really don't follow all of Joseph Smith's interpretation or Doctrines which makes the Church more of a sham.

Quote Originally Posted by Jamnesone5 View Post Quote Originally Posted by proveallthings View Post You show your lack of understanding of Mormon doctrine on this issue. We also believe that “we are simply lost without the continuing grace of Christ” Sometimes when one has the scales removed from their eyes, you find some of those claims one was previously taught to not be so anymore. So it is easier to understand what believing Mormons actually believe if you are not one of them. This is an interesting statement, when I have witnessed first hand that there are doctrines of the church you clearly do not understand. You have either forgotten and accepted the theories of uninformed critics or you never understood them in the first place

Once again, prior to my decision to leave the Church, there was no opinions of others involved in that decision--I simply was very careful about the sources of information I used. In the 60's, 70's and 80's, I was probably taught much the same things that you were and thus, I could look at those prior teachings and examine them through the lens of the Bible, or a Bible that I realized I could read without a Subjective rendering. Finding Truth and allowing God to lead us to truth has to also include a willingness to understand things that might be contrary to what we previously believed or what we still want to believe. My one big goal in Mormonism was to eventually sing in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir when I retired. I think I developed that goal when I was 12 or so. Plus, I have a lot of family members in the Mormon Church and I knew that leaving the Church would cause a lot of dissent with my family, which did happen, although it has somewhat died down in the last few years. So, I realized that part of me really "wanted" to continue Believing the the Mormon Church and I simply had to allow God to lead me to the decision to leave the Church and put my "wants" aside.

Will answer more on you post when time allows.

 

[Mountain Man]

Any decision to leave the Mormon church is born out of the heart and a desire to know the true and living God and his Son Jesus,one must pray to God for deliverance.....no amount of debate or discourse is going to help...how many say to themselves I will debate my beliefs and if I loose I will change them...only God can change the heart and place in it a desire to know him.

 

[Webb]

Any decision to leave the Mormon church is born out of the heart and a desire to know the true and living God and his Son Jesus,one must pray to God for deliverance.....no amount of debate or discourse is going to help...how many say to themselves I will debate my beliefs and if I loose I will change them...only God can change the heart and place in it a dYesire to know him.

Y

Yes, only God changes the heart, He does it through the teaching of His word. See for example the conversion of Lydia.
God bless

 

[Webb]

Hi Pat
I'm responding in part to your post # 122 which was directed to Jamesone5.

Regarding the subject of secular sources versus the word of God as a source you stated that James wouldn't comment on it further. JamesOne5 of course may do as he sees fit, but I shall comment. While secular sources may at times be helpful, my position is that God's word (Old and New Testaments) must always take presedence.

Of the blood atonement belief you wrote: "Again, you are exaggerating something that is simply unimportant. Jesus called this straining at a gnat while swallowing camels." You seem to be admitting that while you think it to be "simply unimportant" it is nonetheless there in Mormon teaching. As for "straining at a gnat while swallowing camels" please note the context in which Jesus made that statement: ''Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise andcummin, and have omittedthe weightier matters of thelaw, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides,which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." (Matt.23:23,24; emp.mine). Jesus didn't refer to the less weightier matters as "simply unimportant" but rather that they should have done them as well as the weightier matters.
God bless

 

[By Grace]

And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another.

That is quite a statement, PAT!

Since you made the assertion, you need to supply the evidences of what you wrote IN CONTEXT.

If you are unable to do that, then we ALL must conclude that your statement is unsupportable from the Bible.

Then you will need to revise that statement.

 

[Webb]

The current issue (# 120 ) of the ''Salt Lake City Messenger" has an excellent article about the "couplet" and doctrine of Deification.

 

[proveallthings]

Any decision to leave the Mormon church is born out of the heart and a desire to know the true and living God and his Son Jesus,one must pray to God for deliverance.....no amount of debate or discourse is going to help...how many say to themselves I will debate my beliefs and if I loose I will change them...only God can change the heart and place in it a desire to know him.

I have to agree with you on this one. When I started this thread, all I wanted was some different perspectives on answering the original question. So far, after all that has been said in this thread, no one has attempted to offer a complete answer to that original question. I would really love it if someone would give it a try.

 

[proveallthings]

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, Amen. You seem best able to confront the doctrines of this religion, having been in the bondage of these things, I will watch and pray for you that Gods Word might become as a flaming sword, that as you stand in the truth and speak the truth Gods Spirit would begin to convict the heart of this man, who in his great pride has come into the assembly of the Living God to promote doctrines of devils. May our Lord be exalted above every lie of satan.

Aren't we getting just a little melodramatic here? This thread was not intended to promote any doctrine at all. I simply asked for some different perspectives in answering a question. So far no one has taken me up on it. All anyone seems to want to do is proclaim the great evils of Mormonism. All I have attempted to do is to correct statements of misinformation.

 

[Jamesone5]

In another thread Mike said: “So, your reason that Mormonism is preferred among all Christians is the dividing line - Mormons believe they have the capability to be "like God" in that we can aspire to the heights of the heavens and become 'gods' ourselves. This is significant to you. Christians believe in eternity with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when we will glorify the Lord, and not be glorified. As Christians, we aspire to be humble, but very thankful to our Lord. I have no interest in anyone ever referring to me as "Lord".â€

So my question is: Does the Mormon belief that they can become like God only encourage one to be arrogant, not humble, ungrateful or prideful, as Mike infers? Or, is it more likely it inspire one to be more Christ-like? What are your thoughts?

Over the years I have had conversations with numerous Mormon missionaries--especially after I asked to be taken off the rolls. I am pretty sure it was my Mom who kept sending them and for the most part, I usually invited them inside and we discussed my disagreements with the Mormon Church. It was only when they got pushy or a little arrogant with their so-called enlightened knowledge {which I supposedly didn't have, along with a testimony in the church] that I usually showed them the door. The new ones assigned to this local ward came by about 3 months ago. A few years ago one missionary claimed that the reason God gave us the chance to "be as God' in the whole Eternal Progression thing is "so we wouldn't be jealous of God. Now, I know that is only one opinion of a likely unenlightened young missionary, but it shows that the "fruits" of this false Belief can lead to false pride. "Jealous of God" is really what satan is all about and to think we have to have a Doctrine to prevent that instead of Worshiping Him as our Creator--it all can lead to pride, unthankfullness and other aspects of satan himself.

 

[proveallthings]

If this Doctrine was the only one that causes me to really question the Mormon church , it might have been a different matter., but alas it was one of many. In fact, the two Doctrines I concentrated on in my studies before I made the decisions to leave the Church was the Eternal Progression Belief and "Who Christ Is in Mormonism"---still convinced that those two Beliefs are where the major errors are in what i was taught in the Mormon Church.
The other issue on this blood Atonement things is that "murder" goes much deeper than just just taking someone's life--we can have murder in our hearts. Jesus tells us in Matthew 5 :21,22 that even being angry with our brother causes us judgement on this Commandment. 1 John 3:15 tells us very plainly that you hate your brother, you are a murderer and have no eternal life abiding in you, so according to the blood atonement belief, it isn't as "rare" as you imply. "Thou shall not Murder" simply applies to many of us until we found forgiveness and even then, we can have anger and even hatred in our hearts until we allow Christ to remove those "murderous thoughts"

Another reason people leave the church is that they misunderstand its doctrines and rely on their assumptions about doctrines which are not actually real, and then become disillusioned when the false self-assumptions of these doctrines and even popular false assumptions within the church are compared to true and false traditions of what certain Bible verses mean. That produces cognitive dissonance and later leads you to look for ways to misunderstand doctrines that are difficult to understand in the first place, in order to justify your new decision. Such justification results in making conclusions like the one you make in your second paragraph here. You cannot find a statement by any church leader anywhere that applies the doctrine of blood atonement to these lesser degrees of murder or even contemplating murder. This is quite a leap of exaggeration and misinformation from the original intent spoken by any church leader. I'll bet you did little, if any, research on the doctrine of blood atonement before you were well down the road to leaving the church. Am I right?

If your will note my screen name is supposed to be Jamesone 5, but somehow I got an "N" in it when I signed up. Once again, before my decision to leave there was much study--mainly on recognized Mormon sources. Very much avoided the so-called anti-Mormon sources because I did simply did not want the Opinions of man to sway me. As to "who's to say which interptretation is of God"the "Who" in that is God and then a person has the assurance that one is on Solid Rock instead of sinking sand in our Beliefs. One error that most Mormons seem to make is that for the rest of Evangelical Christianity, we are all led or taught by Doctrines to believe certain things or personally led to interpret the Bible in certain ways. The Holy spirit that I found leads an individual, not a Religion because God has the power to reach any of us, without any sort modern-day prophet to supposedly interpret all the Bible for us. You are really "bound" by the interpretations of Joseph Smith and most Mormons really don't follow all of Joseph Smith's interpretation or Doctrines which makes the Church more of a sham.

So what you are saying by this is that you were not influenced by any anti-Mormon material or any Biblical interpretation by any Evangelical until after you were led by the Holy Spirit in studying the Bible, comparing it to Mormon teachings and deciding Mormonism was wrong. The impression you leave here is that the Holy Spirit led you to your current belief system independently. Then as you started mingling with Evangelicals, you found yours was the same interpretation of the Bible they had. If this is true, it is a very impressive and persuasive argument for your position. Almost as persuasive as many who really have been led to the LDS church in the same way, including many fine Protestant ministers.

 

[proveallthings]

In another thread Mike said: “So, your reason that Mormonism is preferred among all Christians is the dividing line - Mormons believe they have the capability to be "like God" in that we can aspire to the heights of the heavens and become 'gods' ourselves. This is significant to you. Christians believe in eternity with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit when we will glorify the Lord, and not be glorified. As Christians, we aspire to be humble, but very thankful to our Lord. I have no interest in anyone ever referring to me as "Lord".â€

So my question is: Does the Mormon belief that they can become like God only encourage one to be arrogant, not humble, ungrateful or prideful, as Mike infers? Or, is it more likely it inspire one to be more Christ-like? What are your thoughts?

Over the years I have had conversations with numerous Mormon missionaries--especially after I asked to be taken off the rolls. I am pretty sure it was my Mom who kept sending them and for the most part, I usually invited them inside and we discussed my disagreements with the Mormon Church. It was only when they got pushy or a little arrogant with their so-called enlightened knowledge {which I supposedly didn't have, along with a testimony in the church] that I usually showed them the door. The new ones assigned to this local ward came by about 3 months ago. A few years ago one missionary claimed that the reason God gave us the chance to "be as God' in the whole Eternal Progression thing is "so we wouldn't be jealous of God. Now, I know that is only one opinion of a likely unenlightened young missionary, but it shows that the "fruits" of this false Belief can lead to false pride. "Jealous of God" is really what satan is all about and to think we have to have a Doctrine to prevent that instead of Worshiping Him as our Creator--it all can lead to pride, unthankfullness and other aspects of satan himself.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for commenting on this.

 

[By Grace]

This thread was not intended to promote any doctrine at all. I simply asked for some different perspectives in answering a question.

I am not about to throw out the "L" word for two reasons:

1) usage of that pejorative term infers that one using the term has knowledge of the intent pf the other
​

2) as a matter of self interest, I do not want any post deleted
​

Really, though, If I were to post about this doctrine, or that heresy having an ancillary effect of arrogance, and not humility, would it not be suspected that I would make future posts to defend that doctrine or heresy that I cherish? Look again at the last sentences of your OP:

So my question is: Does the Mormon belief that they can become like God only encourage one to be arrogant, not humble, ungrateful or prideful, as Mike infers? Or, is it more likely it inspire one to be more Christ-like? What are your thoughts? So far no one has taken me up on it. All anyone seems to want to do is proclaim the great evils of Mormonism. All I have attempted to do is to correct statements of misinformation.

Only someone fresh out of the pumpkin patch would consider that you are not trying to promote your LDS doctrine.

Additionally, I bring up the example of another Mormon poster, whom I believe is suspended for a while who started out claiming that he was a Christian, but in a nasty PM to me, he indicated he was a Mormon, as I suspected all along. Of course, you are different from him, and his actions cannot be attributed to you, BUT having been on CARM for many years, and having seen similar antics by many different Mormons there, the adage "once burned, twice learned" is appropriate. From that it is very easy for anyone to make a generalization that has a basis in reality for several Mormons to include all Mormons.

Aren't we getting just a little melodramatic here?

In light of that experience, I am sure that you can understand the skepticism of many Christian posters here. In the minds of many of us, by protesting as you did, you are attempting to run against the flow of your fellow LDS posters. Therefore, there is no one being "melodramatic" here; it is that we proceed from an abundance of caution. And in that same sort of caution that we have, I believe that I must also caution you about promoting your Mormon faith in your attempts to explain it.

Originally Posted by proveallthings
And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another

. That is quite a statement, PAT! Since you made the assertion, you need to supply the evidences of what you wrote IN CONTEXT. If you are unable to do that, then we ALL must conclude that your statement is unsupportable from the Bible. Then you will need to revise that statement.

[/QUOTE]

That is why I answered your post in the manner that I did.

Does that all make sense?

 

[By Grace]

The current issue (# 120 ) of the ''Salt Lake City Messenger" has an excellent article about the "couplet" and doctrine of Deification.

I suggest that you may want to check with the mods, and see if you can post some snips from it here.

 

[George Muller]

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, Amen. You seem best able to confront the doctrines of this religion, having been in the bondage of these things, I will watch and pray for you that Gods Word might become as a flaming sword, that as you stand in the truth and speak the truth Gods Spirit would begin to convict the heart of this man, who in his great pride has come into the assembly of the Living God to promote doctrines of devils. May our Lord be exalted above every lie of satan.

Aren't we getting just a little melodramatic here? This thread was not intended to promote any doctrine at all. I simply asked for some different perspectives in answering a question. So far no one has taken me up on it. All anyone seems to want to do is proclaim the great evils of Mormonism. All I have attempted to do is to correct statements of misinformation.

Again it is you, who come into a "Christian forum" trying to promote mormon doctrine. There would be no statements or issues about mormonism if you had not tried to put them forward as to be accepted as some sort of biblical truth. The forum itself makes clear that mormon doctrine is not accepted as biblical. So it is you and you alone who seek to impose these issues on others. You come to this forum knowing the rules and the standards, and then you attempt to promote and defend these wicked and false things in the assembly of Gods people.

 

[Jamesone5]

nother reason people leave the church is that they misunderstand its doctrines and rely on their assumptions about doctrines which are not actually real, and then become disillusioned when the false self-assumptions of these doctrines and even popular false assumptions within the church are compared to true and false traditions of what certain Bible verses mean. That produces cognitive dissonance and later leads you to look for ways to misunderstand doctrines that are difficult to understand in the first place, in order to justify your new decision. Such justification results in making conclusions like the one you make in your second paragraph here. You cannot find a statement by any church leader anywhere that applies the doctrine of blood atonement to these lesser degrees of murder or even contemplating murder. This is quite a leap of exaggeration and misinformation from the original intent spoken by any church leader. I'll bet you did little, if any, research on the doctrine of blood atonement before you were well down the road to leaving the church. Am I right?

You are really grasping at straws, trying to come up with a rationalization as to why I left the supposed "One , True Church" here on earth. As to understanding--I probably had a strong testimony in the church for maybe 20 years, and couldn't wait on testimony Sunday to bear my own testimony. But "understanding" in the Mormon church really includes acceptance of all Doctrines without questioning. That is, one has to keep one's testimony about Joseph Smith and succeeding prophets and the Church itself intact, so really one never allows questions about Doctrines to set forth in their minds. Have seen many statement by Mormons which say in context--"you question things and you are allowing the doubts of satan to enter in" As to the blood atonement doctrine--once again it was not the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back" as to my deciding to leave the Church, but I have researched it much since then..

So what you are saying by this is that you were not influenced by any anti-Mormon material or any Biblical interpretation by any Evangelical until after you were led by the Holy Spirit in studying the Bible, comparing it to Mormon teachings and deciding Mormonism was wrong. The impression you leave here is that the Holy Spirit led you to your current belief system independently. Then as you started mingling with Evangelicals, you found yours was the same interpretation of the Bible they had. If this is true, it is a very impressive and persuasive argument for your position. Almost as persuasive as many who really have been led to the LDS church in the same way, including many fine Protestant ministers.

Like many, "I came to Christ" [or really the True Christ] after a very severe trial in my life. For me, it was the loss of my 19 year old son to suicide. He never quite got over the death of his mother[also my wife] 8 years prior and I was the one that found him that day. The Grace of Christ or the unmerited favor I receive in sustaining me through that huge trial and the Peace that started to filter in from Christ really brought me to a point where I deeply desired to know Him better. In the months that followed his death, I developed a True Hunger for the Word because I found that reading the Bible helped make that Peace last a bit longer. Tried that same thing with Mormon recognized Scripture {BoM, D&C} and hardly felt the same wonderful peacefulness. Of course this new found Hunger and Trust in the Bible brought me to the point to where I had to pit Mormon Doctrine against my new Biblical understandings and of course a few Mormon Doctrines came up wanting.

One question that came up a lot in this trial in my life was "Would the Mormon Jesus give me the same Peace, that has sustained me now for 18 years?" The answer is a resounding "No' because He is merely a Created Exalted man in Mormonism and by the very nature of their belief in Him, He cannot have this type of powers--only a True God does.

 

[proveallthings]

[/INDENT]Really, though, If I were to post about this doctrine, or that heresy having an ancillary effect of arrogance, and not humility, would it not be suspected that I would make future posts to defend that doctrine or heresy that I cherish? Look again at the last sentences of your OP:
Originally Posted by proveallthings
"So my question is: Does the Mormon belief that they can become like God only encourage one to be arrogant, not humble, ungrateful or prideful, as Mike infers? Or, is it more likely it inspire one to be more Christ-like? What are your thoughts? So far no one has taken me up on it. All anyone seems to want to do is proclaim the great evils of Mormonism. All I have attempted to do is to correct statements of misinformation."
Only someone fresh out of the pumpkin patch would consider that you are not trying to promote your LDS doctrine.

So you think this is just throwing out bait to get you guys to ask me to support the beliefs in question, thus giving me an excuse to promote my doctrines under the guise of just answering your questions. I think that is what you are saying here and I agree that it is a valid concern.

First of all, you need to remember that this was all about commenting on a post originating with Mike, a moderator, not me. If you read back over the posts of this thread, you will find that whenever anyone actually attempted to answer the original question, I did not do what you suggested were my intentions. The only time you will find me defending or presenting doctrine is when other posters violate the rules by posting things unrelated to the topic of the thread.

Believe me, I did not want that to happen. Perhaps I was naive, but I was hopeful of having an enlightening discussion on just the question I posted about Mike’s comment. The idea was more about how this belief motivates people and not whether it is Biblical or correct or not.

Originally Posted by proveallthings
And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another

. That is quite a statement, PAT! Since you made the assertion, you need to supply the evidences of what you wrote IN CONTEXT. If you are unable to do that, then we ALL must conclude that your statement is unsupportable from the Bible. Then you will need to revise that statement.

That is why I answered your post in the manner that I did.

Does that all make sense?

I think you are saying that this is a perfect example of baiting you to ask me to explain Mormon doctrine, which would be a way to legitimize my promoting of that doctrine. I can totally understand why you would assume that motive. I can only say that it really wasn’t and hope you will believe me. I really didn’t want to go to the work of digging up all those scriptures that support my statement.

My only purpose was to remind you that there are other perspectives other than yours which can just as easily be shown in the Bible. It was a reminder that Evangelicals are not the only people who can logically read the Bible. Other intelligent people are studying the Bible just as sincerely and diligently, but coming up with different understandings.

 

[George Muller]

I think you are saying that this is a perfect example of baiting you to ask me to explain Mormon doctrine, which would be a way to legitimize my promoting of that doctrine. I can totally understand why you would assume that motive. I can only say that it really wasn’t and hope you will believe me. I really didn’t want to go to the work of digging up all those scriptures that support my statement.

This is very easy to solve, if you would like to discuss doctrine? Use the ONLY ACCEPTABLE source, the Word of God, also known as the bible. Put it foward as the only standard and there is no need to try to hide any doctrine.

That which the Lord spoke to the Apostles and Phophets and had written, is not hidden. We do not cover the Light of the Gospel with a basket.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.