The Mormon Belief of Deification

[proveallthings]

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, Amen. You seem best able to confront the doctrines of this religion, having been in the bondage of these things, I will watch and pray for you that Gods Word might become as a flaming sword, that as you stand in the truth and speak the truth Gods Spirit would begin to convict the heart of this man, who in his great pride has come into the assembly of the Living God to promote doctrines of devils. May our Lord be exalted above every lie of satan.

Aren't we getting just a little melodramatic here? This thread was not intended to promote any doctrine at all. I simply asked for some different perspectives in answering a question. So far no one has taken me up on it. All anyone seems to want to do is proclaim the great evils of Mormonism. All I have attempted to do is to correct statements of misinformation.

Again it is you, who come into a "Christian forum" trying to promote mormon doctrine. There would be no statements or issues about mormonism if you had not tried to put them forward as to be accepted as some sort of biblical truth. The forum itself makes clear that mormon doctrine is not accepted as biblical. So it is you and you alone who seek to impose these issues on others. You come to this forum knowing the rules and the standards, and then you attempt to promote and defend these wicked and false things in the assembly of Gods people.

George, I think you are forgetting that this particular forum is to learn about other religions and compare their beliefs with that of Christians. At least that is what the title implies to me. If you can’t handle the idea that there can be other intelligent people who actually interpret the Bible differently than you, why do you come to this forum in the first place?

The moderators have allowed non-Christians to comment on this and other forums. Did you think they would only say things that agreed with your perspective? This thread was started by me asking for different perspectives about the assumption Mike, a moderator in these forums, made about a certain Mormon doctrine. That was to be the subject of this thread. You have repeatedly broken the rules by making inflammatory, disrespectful comments unrelated to the subject.

If you are so concerned about the purity of these forums only promoting Christian beliefs and standards, you should probably be careful not to judge others as coming with great pride, intending to promote doctrines of devils and lies of Satan. These are pretty strong, judgemental words. I didn’t start this thread calling anyone names or claiming their doctrines were of Satan or that they are prideful. I only asked a simple question about a statement one of the moderators of these forums made, inviting civil discussion.

I’m not saying I am offended or hurt by your comments. I am just trying to help you see them from another perspective. I hope I haven’t offended you. I know you are just trying to do the right thing and are passionate about your beliefs, which I admire.

 

[George Muller]

George, I think you are forgetting that this particular forum is to learn about other religions and compare their beliefs with that of Christians.

Well at least you are taking an honest position now, If you admit your religion is not "Christain" then we are in a place where we can discuss it in truth, without the deception of trying to promote it under the cloak of it being " Christian" you see the truth is not a problem, but when deception is used on Gods People, its is a very big problem with me.

 

[proveallthings]

You are really grasping at straws, trying to come up with a rationalization as to why I left the supposed "One , True Church" here on earth. As to understanding--I probably had a strong testimony in the church for maybe 20 years, and couldn't wait on testimony Sunday to bear my own testimony. But "understanding" in the Mormon church really includes acceptance of all Doctrines without questioning. That is, one has to keep one's testimony about Joseph Smith and succeeding prophets and the Church itself intact, so really one never allows questions about Doctrines to set forth in their minds. Have seen many statement by Mormons which say in context--"you question things and you are allowing the doubts of satan to enter in".

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of LDS teachings. Why does the church constantly teach that we each must find out for ourselves about anything in the church, if we are not allowed to question? This is one of the most fundamental beliefs Mormons share. Of course we must question or the church falls apart. It is an essential building block of the LDS church that no one should accept anything just because a leader says it or commands it. There had to be other dynamics going on emotionally, you are leaving out, in trying to deal with this terrible tragedy, that would allow you to forget these fundamental teachings and get everything so mixed up in your head.

As to the blood atonement doctrine--once again it was not the proverbial "straw that broke the camels back" as to my deciding to leave the Church, but I have researched it much since then..

This is as I suspected.

Like many, "I came to Christ" [or really the True Christ] after a very severe trial in my life. For me, it was the loss of my 19 year old son to suicide. He never quite got over the death of his mother[also my wife] 8 years prior and I was the one that found him that day. The Grace of Christ or the unmerited favor I receive in sustaining me through that huge trial and the Peace that started to filter in from Christ really brought me to a point where I deeply desired to know Him better. In the months that followed his death, I developed a True Hunger for the Wordbecause I found that reading the Bible helped make that Peace last a bit longer.

So far I can totally relate to your story. This kind of thing happens to many people of many different faiths, including Mormons.

Tried that same thing with Mormon recognized Scripture {BoM, D&C} and hardly felt the same wonderful peacefulness. Of course this new found Hunger and Trust in the Bible brought me to the point to where I had to pit Mormon Doctrine against my new Biblical understandings and of course a few Mormon Doctrines came up wanting.

Again, I would suggest that you are leaving out other emotions going on that affected things here. I know of literally hundreds of people going through similar trials, including myself, who have just the opposite experience.

One question that came up a lot in this trial in my life was "Would the Mormon Jesus give me the same Peace, that has sustained me now for 18 years?" The answer is a resounding "No' because He is merely a Created Exalted man in Mormonism and by the very nature of their belief in Him, He cannot have this type of powers--only a True God does.

In my experience, these are only ideas that would come to a mind which had bitter feelings because of difficult circumstances and/or had these ideas planted by someone antagonistic toward the church. I have not lived my life in a bubble. I am familiar with the intimate details of people who have gone down the same path as you and I also know hundreds more who have reached opposite conclusions and taken a different path who have experienced similar trials.

I am not saying you do not have a great relationship with God and Christ. I believe you do. The Lord loves you with a perfect love and you love him back in the best way you know how. I’m just saying that your personal choice of which path you are following is not proof of what others should do.

 

[proveallthings]

George, I think you are forgetting that this particular forum is to learn about other religions and compare their beliefs with that of Christians.

Well at least you are taking an honest position now, If you admit your religion is not "Christain" then we are in a place where we can discuss it in truth, without the deception of trying to promote it under the cloak of it being " Christian" you see the truth is not a problem, but when deception is used on Gods People, its is a very big problem with me.

George, I am admitting that my brand of Christianity is different from yours. I believe in the Christ of the Bible, but interpret some things in the Bible differently than you. I understand that you and the moderators of this forum do not accept my church to be a Christian church, so my comment was in that context. I feel I can show that my beliefs in Christ can all be supported by the Bible, just as you do. It is the truth that this is what I honestly believe. Is it okay with you that someone that believes these things can post in this forum and be treated with respect?

 

[By Grace]

And I have studied the Bible, Old and New Testaments, through and through and have found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it all in one way or another.

That is quite a statement, PAT! Since you made the assertion, you need to supply the evidences of what you wrote IN CONTEXT. If you are unable to do that, then we ALL must conclude that your statement is unsupportable from the Bible. Then you will need to revise that statement.

That is why I answered your post in the manner that I did. Does that all make sense?

I think you are saying that this is a perfect example of baiting you to ask me to explain Mormon doctrine, which would be a way to legitimize my promoting of that doctrine. I can totally understand why you would assume that motive. I can only say that it really wasn’t and hope you will believe me. I really didn’t want to go to the work of digging up all those scriptures that support my statement. My only purpose was to remind you that there are other perspectives other than yours which can just as easily be shown in the Bible. It was a reminder that Evangelicals are not the only people who can logically read the Bible. Other intelligent people are studying the Bible just as sincerely and diligently, but coming up with different understandings.

No, I am NOT trying to bait you. If I were, I would have done a better job.

Again, you have a wrong impression. I merely explained the almost knee jerk reaction I have when I see a Mormon posting some things that are inaccurate. Because some of your comrades have been obnoxious, it is VERY difficult for me to not think deja vu. That is my problem, not yours.

In the same vein when Mormons state something as true, which I know is not true, then I get to wondering if the "L" word is accurate. It is my belief that it is inappropriate to use with you. Usage of that term speaks to premeditation, and a willful distortion of things to make a point. Such an example would be a Mormon person using his personal information section to state that he is a Christian. That happened recently. In your case I believe that you post such things that are not true, but are merely repetitions of what you have been taught.

For some that may seem like splitting hairs, but I believe that it is a valid, and important distinction.

Getting back to the point of this post:
What I continue to take issue with is your assertion, which I made in bold red.

Since you stated that you "found that this idea of Deification or Eternal Progression permeates through it [BIBLE] all in one way or another" it is my opinion that quoting the places where you believe that the Bible teaches something is NOT promoting that doctrine, but an opinion on what you believe the Bible is saying.

Just to keep things above above board, I suggest that you PM Mike and directly ask, "If I post a section, or a verse from the Bible which I believe supports the Mormon doctrine of Progression, or Exaltation of humans into gods, would that be the same as promoting my belief in them?"

IMHO that is a legitimate question since we Christians believe in "Sola Scriptura". And since this is a way to study the Bible to see what it says, I believe that the admins may approve that. But you gotta ask first, OK?

HOWEVER for you to bring in the JSTranslation would be a different matter entirely. That is because Smith did NOT translate the Bible, he distorted it because he knows zero Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, which are the three original languages of the 66 books we call the Bible.

If you proceed here on that course, you will need to be aware that there will be some posters who will give you arguments from the original languages. For Christians, that is very important, and due to the many different manuscripts and codices and papyri we have of the NT, there is universal belief among both the liberal scholars and the conservative scholars that the list of those documents (over 6000), and their variant readings, we now have agreement as to what 99.999% of the original texts (autographa) of the New Testament.

That remaining 1/1000% is insignificant, and by using parallel statements, it is very easy to know what should be written in a very few places.

That is a fair warning of what to expect when you quote from the Bible.

 

[George Muller]

George, I think you are forgetting that this particular forum is to learn about other religions and compare their beliefs with that of Christians.

Well at least you are taking an honest position now, If you admit your religion is not "Christain" then we are in a place where we can discuss it in truth, without the deception of trying to promote it under the cloak of it being " Christian" you see the truth is not a problem, but when deception is used on Gods People, its is a very big problem with me.

George, I am admitting that my brand of Christianity is different from yours. I believe in the Christ of the Bible, but interpret some things in the Bible differently than you. I understand that you and the moderators of this forum do not accept my church to be a Christian church, so my comment was in that context. I feel I can show that my beliefs in Christ can all be supported by the Bible, just as you do. It is the truth that this is what I honestly believe. Is it okay with you that someone that believes these things can post in this forum and be treated with respect?

I have and do grant respect to mormons, but when we enter the realm of the gospel, and what is the true gospel, I know and defend the truth. Now you know very well that you would meet real Christians on this forum, who would in no way accept mormon doctrine, but would oppose its false foundations and its doctrines. So it is not honest for you to act suprised that Christians reject this religion. Again I offer the gospel of Paul, as a point of truth where all doctrine could be judged. If you cannot accept that, then please do not be offended but you and I are forever at odds on the issues of life and truth. Now If I meet you ate a baseball game, or other places, I would grant you the kindness and compassion that Christ has put in my heart for all men, but I do defend the gospel and those who pervert it are not to be granted refuge from the judgment it brings on those who reject it.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 ¶ If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Jamesone5]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of LDS teachings. Why does the church constantly teach that we each must find out for ourselves about anything in the church, if we are not allowed to question? This is one of the most fundamental beliefs Mormons share. Of course we must question or the church falls apart. It is an essential building block of the LDS church that no one should accept anything just because a leader says it or commands it. There had to be other dynamics going on emotionally, you are leaving out, in trying to deal with this terrible tragedy, that would allow you to forget these fundamental teachings and get everything so mixed up in your head.

The sad thing is that [like myself at one time] you lie to yourself here on the "questioning" thing. You might nibble around the edges on really questioning something but always the important thing is to always preserve your testimony in the church and Joseph Smith. Your testimony becomes your most prized asset. Yes I was "mixed up in the head" at one time trying to hold onto my own testimony of the LDS church, but then Christ set me free of all that.

In my experience, these are only ideas that would come to a mind which had bitter feelings because of difficult circumstances and/or had these ideas planted by someone antagonistic toward the church. I have not lived my life in a bubble. I am familiar with the intimate details of people who have gone down the same path as you and I also know hundreds more who have reached opposite conclusions and taken a different path who have experienced similar trials. I am not saying you do not have a great relationship with God and Christ. I believe you do. The Lord loves you with a perfect love and you love him back in the best way you know how. I’m just saying that your personal choice of which path you are following is not proof of what others should do.

See, you always go back to this assertion that someone supposedly swayed me---obviously being in your own Belief system where you have to be taught and led to find answers to everything as it pertains to God, you cannot comprehend that the True Holy Spirit can be our guide to all Truth and that we can find Christ on our own. Cannot tell you how truly liberating it is to find the True Holy Spirit and not rely on man and his relative opinions, but then you cannot comprehend all that.

As to the "hundreds' that you know who have reached opposite conclusions as to the Truthfulness of the Mormon Church--let's see how that works out .

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/

This site tells us that Utah [which is 71.76% LDS] has the highest rate of any state in the Nation as to mental-health issues. Another study that is obvious is the fact that Utah also has the highest usage per capita of anti-depressants, so it would appear that life in the Land of Zion isn't what the church would have you believe. Your church essentially tells one to "deal with your issues in life on your own"--there is no "Grace in Christ" to find to help with life's tragedies. This was all so much more obvious when I went through the deaths of my father about 7 years ago and then my mother last year and both of them being Members of the LDS Church. I simply noted the huge difference in the LDS way of comforting versus my church and others in the area who all point to Christ in these "trials in our lives".

We both will agree that either the Mormon Church is True as it professes Or it is False and really that is the focus of our debate here. Only God will help you see the Truth and I can only plant "seeds".

 

[Jamesone5]

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/go/state-ranking

Here is the link to the right study

 

[George Muller]

This site tells us that Utah [which is 71.76% LDS] has the highest rate of any state in the Nation as to mental-health issues. Another study that is obvious is the fact that Utah also has the highest usage per capita of anti-depressants, so it would appear that life in the Land of Zion isn't what the church would have you believe.

I would also add that porn addiction is a bigger problem in mormon regions than in others. It seems joseph smith left his "spirit of lust" in his followers after he died.

 

[Jamesone5]

This site tells us that Utah [which is 71.76% LDS] has the highest rate of any state in the Nation as to mental-health issues. Another study that is obvious is the fact that Utah also has the highest usage per capita of anti-depressants, so it would appear that life in the Land of Zion isn't what the church would have you believe.

I would also add that porn addiction is a bigger problem in mormon regions than in others. It seems joseph smith left his "spirit of lust" in his followers after he died.

thank you for adding that---it is all more of the wonderful "fuits" that proveallthings seems to think are these evidences of Christ's True Church.

 

[Jamesone5]

Since i was on the subject of "testimonies" and how Mormons are taught to always preserve their own and then the so-called power attached to their testimonies through the priesthood, I wanted to comment about an experience in 2008. I was on a mission trip to Peru with members of the 1st Baptist church I now belong to. We went to a remote village in northern Peru and helped the residents there with their own Church building and the experience was something that i will never forget. Anyway, we passed through Lima and then a city called Tarapoto to get to our destination. In Tarapoto, I encountered two LDS missionaries on the street one day. One was from Idaho and the other was from Columbia.


the Idaho kid was so gratified that I showed us and he could finally converse in English---that is until I told him I had left the LDS Church and the reasons for that. All of a sudden this kid breaks out in his testimony like it was some-kind of witch doctor chant to ward away evil spirits. I realized from what I was taught in the Mormon Church that this kid was thinking his own testomony had some sort of magic attached to it to not only preserve his own beliefs, but to ward of these "wolves in sheep's clothing" which I was to him. It is reminiscent to the whole "Mormon underwear thing" and how even in death, our bodies have these needed magical protections--really evidences of the Occult.

 

[Webb]

Hi James--I'm responding in part to your post #147 regarding testimonies.

I have studies with numerous Mormon elders. Without exception they all gave their testimonies before leaving. In fact, the last time one began to show signs of cracking and the stronger immediately gave his testimony and urged the weaker to do the same.

 

[George Muller]

This site tells us that Utah [which is 71.76% LDS] has the highest rate of any state in the Nation as to mental-health issues. Another study that is obvious is the fact that Utah also has the highest usage per capita of anti-depressants, so it would appear that life in the Land of Zion isn't what the church would have you believe.

I would also add that porn addiction is a bigger problem in mormon regions than in others. It seems joseph smith left his "spirit of lust" in his followers after he died.

thank you for adding that---it is all more of the wonderful "fuits" that proveallthings seems to think are these evidences of Christ's True Church.

Just as the Lord said, only when the inside of the cup is clean is the true work done, and that by the Spirit of our God.

 

[George Muller]

Hi James--I'm responding in part to your post #147 regarding testimonies.

I have studies with numerous Mormon elders. Without exception they all gave their testimonies before leaving. In fact, the last time one began to show signs of cracking and the stronger immediately gave his testimony and urged the weaker to do the same.

STUDIES WITH MORMON ELDERS? where you a mormon? do you share their beliefs? How many wives to you have?

 

[proveallthings]

I think you are saying that this is a perfect example of baiting you to ask me to explain Mormon doctrine, which would be a way to legitimize my promoting of that doctrine. I can totally understand why you would assume that motive. I can only say that it really wasn’t and hope you will believe me. I really didn’t want to go to the work of digging up all those scriptures that support my statement. My only purpose was to remind you that there are other perspectives other than yours which can just as easily be shown in the Bible. It was a reminder that Evangelicals are not the only people who can logically read the Bible. Other intelligent people are studying the Bible just as sincerely and diligently, but coming up with different understandings.

No, I am NOT trying to bait you. If I were, I would have done a better job.

I don’t get how you got that I was saying that you were baiting me. I was just trying to explain what I thought you were suspecting of me, which is baiting. Please go back and read my above quote. I certainly do not think you would want to bait me into breaking the rules. Such a thought has never entered my mind.

Again, you have a wrong impression. I merely explained the almost knee jerk reaction I have when I see a Mormon posting some things that are inaccurate. Because some of your comrades have been obnoxious, it is VERY difficult for me to not think deja vu. That is my problem, not yours.

Yes, this is exactly what I understood you to mean. Please go back and read my reply more carefully.

In the same vein when Mormons state something as true, which I know is not true, then I get to wondering if the "L" word is accurate. It is my belief that it is inappropriate to use with you. Usage of that term speaks to premeditation, and a willful distortion of things to make a point.

I agree with your definition of the word lie. It assumes deliberate deception. But there is a way this word could be used in these discussions. If we are saying someone is believing a lie, I think that would not be wrong.

Such an example would be a Mormon person using his personal information section to state that he is a Christian. That happened recently. In your case I believe that you post such things that are not true, but are merely repetitions of what you have been taught.

I am not aware of this specific example, but when I originally registered for this forum, I called myself a Christian, because that is what I believe I am. However, not being new to this type of discussion I realized that I still needed to identify what type of Christian I was just to avoid any suspicion of deception. I can see why a Mormon could quite innocently call label himself a Christian in this forum and not realize what that might communicate to someone of your mindset or the moderators of this forum. Again, I am not acquainted with your specific example.

Just to keep things above above board, I suggest that you PM Mike and directly ask, "If I post a section, or a verse from the Bible which I believe supports the Mormon doctrine of Progression, or Exaltation of humans into gods, would that be the same as promoting my belief in them?"

I have already PMed the board about this and similar ambiguities in the rules because of the deletion of the other thread and am awaiting their reply.

IMHO that is a legitimate question since we Christians believe in "Sola Scriptura". And since this is a way to study the Bible to see what it says, I believe that the admins may approve that. But you gotta ask first, OK?

HOWEVER for you to bring in the JSTranslation would be a different matter entirely. That is because Smith did NOT translate the Bible, he distorted it because he knows zero Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic, which are the three original languages of the 66 books we call the Bible.

I understand completely why I should not use quotes from the JST as if they were just Bible verses, for that would indeed be deceptive. I also understand that using such quotes, even if identified, to back up an idea, would not be in harmony with the rules of these forums.

By the way, I think all informed Mormons would agree that Joseph’s JST never had any pretense of coming from the original languages, so I don’t know why you would bring it up. It has always been represented as direct revelation from the original source, God.

If you proceed here on that course, you will need to be aware that there will be some posters who will give you arguments from the original languages. For Christians, that is very important, and due to the many different manuscripts and codices and papyri we have of the NT, there is universal belief among both the liberal scholars and the conservative scholars that the list of those documents (over 6000), and their variant readings, we now have agreement as to what 99.999% of the original texts (autographa) of the New Testament.

The inference could be taken from this statement that there are no Mormon scholars with equal credentials in the original languages. That would be an incorrect assumption. We have many.

That is a fair warning of what to expect when you quote from the Bible.

No warning needed. I have learned this well from my 3+ years of posting and reading in these forums.

 

[proveallthings]

I have and do grant respect to mormons, but when we enter the realm of the gospel, and what is the true gospel, I know and defend the truth. Now you know very well that you would meet real Christians on this forum, who would in no way accept mormon doctrine, but would oppose its false foundations and its doctrines. So it is not honest for you to act suprised that Christians reject this religion. Again I offer the gospel of Paul, as a point of truth where all doctrine could be judged. If you cannot accept that, then please do not be offended but you and I are forever at odds on the issues of life and truth.

George, I think you are missing the point here. I have never said anything that would even infer that I expected the Christians of this forum to accept Mormon doctrine. Nor am I surprised when they reject it. I can’t see how you would get that from anything I have said.

Now about the idea of using the writings of Paul to be the sole standard to judge all other scripture by. I have long suspected that Evangelicals generally unconsciously believed this, but would never openly admit it. To think that you would consciously and openly state that you hold the writings of an apostle, who was not even one of the original 12, above the words coming directly from the Lord himself is just amazing to me. I do admire your honesty, however.

Now If I meet you ate a baseball game, or other places, I would grant you the kindness and compassion that Christ has put in my heart for all men, but I do defend the gospel and those who pervert it are not to be granted refuge from the judgment it brings on those who reject it.

This is a very interesting belief. So you actually believe that when it comes to discussing religion, it would be unChristian to show respect toward someone’s honest expression of a belief that is different from yours?

 

[George Muller]

Now about the idea of using the writings of Paul to be the sole standard to judge all other scripture by. I have long suspected that Evangelicals generally unconsciously believed this, but would never openly admit it. To think that you would consciously and openly state that you hold the writings of an apostle, who was not even one of the original 12, above the words coming directly from the Lord himself is just amazing to me. I do admire your honesty, however.

Well the scriptures that point to this clear and evident fact have been posted over and over, I can post them again and many more if you will agree to accept the clear reading of Gods Word? Also the scriptures are very clear that we are not to allow heresy nor have fellowship with those we know teach heresy, I have posted some of those, but you seem to ignore them also? How about you give an answer to Jamesone5 and his latest post that relates to the "fruits" of your religion?

 

[proveallthings]

The sad thing is that [like myself at one time] you lie to yourself here on the "questioning" thing. You might nibble around the edges on really questioning something but always the important thing is to always preserve your testimony in the church and Joseph Smith. Your testimony becomes your most prized asset. Yes I was "mixed up in the head" at one time trying to hold onto my own testimony of the LDS church, but then Christ set me free of all that.

The testimony is only a prized asset if it is real. A testimony without realistic questioning is not real. Do really think we are so stupid that we don’t realize this? In saying you were mixed up, I was referring to the fact that your understanding of LDS teachings is inaccurate.

See, you always go back to this assertion that someone supposedly swayed me---obviously being in your own Belief system where you have to be taught and led to find answers to everything as it pertains to God, you cannot comprehend that the True Holy Spirit can be our guide to all Truth and that we can find Christ on our own. Cannot tell you how truly liberating it is to find the True Holy Spirit and not rely on man and his relative opinions, but then you cannot comprehend all that.

I didn’t say anything about swaying. I was challenging this statement of yours, (â€One question that came up a lot in this trial in my life was "Would the Mormon Jesus give me the same Peace, that has sustained me now for 18 years?" The answer is a resounding "No' because He is merely a Created Exalted man in Mormonism and by the very nature of their belief in Him, He cannot have this type of powersâ€). You are mixing past and present tenses here, but want to convey the idea that these feelings and ideas influenced your leaving the church. Yet all the persuasive ideas against the church are listed as present feelings. I still want to know if you can honestly say that you had no exposure to any critical material about the church or its doctrines before you decided to leave the church. If you cannot say this honestly, your argument about only being led by the spirit falls apart.

 

[proveallthings]

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/

This site tells us that Utah [which is 71.76% LDS] has the highest rate of any state in the Nation as to mental-health issues. Another study that is obvious is the fact that Utah also has the highest usage per capita of anti-depressants, so it would appear that life in the Land of Zion isn't what the church would have you believe. Your church essentially tells one to "deal with your issues in life on your own"--there is no "Grace in Christ" to find to help with life's tragedies. This was all so much more obvious when I went through the deaths of my father about 7 years ago and then my mother last year and both of them being Members of the LDS Church. I simply noted the huge difference in the LDS way of comforting versus my church and others in the area who all point to Christ in these "trials in our lives".

We both will agree that either the Mormon Church is True as it professes Or it is False and really that is the focus of our debate here. Only God will help you see the Truth and I can only plant "seeds".
[/B]

Well, I have been the one who has been beating the “fruits†drum and now you feel you have me with my own criteria. But are these studies really about the fruits of Mormonism or are we jumping to conclusions here? Lets look a little deeper.

These studies gathered no data about which religion the respondents belonged to, only where they lived by state. Is it possible that these statistics are actually in spite of the Mormons living in Utah, rather than because of? Lets look at some of these figures and see what else we can learn.

Problems that are expressed in terms of rankings can exaggerate the size of a problem because often times the difference between best, average, and worst is small. The national average is 8.05%. In Utah, that percentage is 10.14% So when we talk about Utah’s “depression problem,†we’re talking about depression numbers that are about two percentage points above the national average.

When we compare Utah to the other “most-depressed†states like Kentucky, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, etc., that gap is much, much smaller. For example, in Rhode Island, 9.88% of adults report experiencing a major depressive episode. Again, in Utah that number is 10.14%. So there we’re talking about a difference of just .26% between a “Mormon state†like Utah, and a non-Mormon state like Rhode Island.

Mormonism’s potential responsibility for Utah’s depression numbers is further weakened by the fact that a very significant percentage of Utah Mormons are inactive, i.e., they are presumably not actively steeped in the supposedly depression-inducing Mormon culture.

To assess Mormonism’s potential responsibility for causing Utahns’ depression, it seems we would need to focus on the delta between the number of adults reporting depression in Utah (10.14%), and the most depressed “non-Mormon†state, Rhode Island (9.88%). In other words, if 9.88% of Rhode Islanders report depression without a strong Mormon presence in that state, then it seems at least 9.88% of Utahns are depressed for exactly the same sorts of reasons as Rhode Islanders. That leaves us with a delta of .26% of Utahns who might be depressed because of Mormonism.

Every study I have ever seen that specifies religious involvement shows that Mormons actively involved in their religion are among the healthiest groups in the world when it comes to mental health. Here are some examples:

The conclusion from a $4 million study of American youth and religion at the University of North Carolina showed that “Mormon Teens Cope Best: A study finds they top peers at handling adolescence.†(newsobserver.com March 13, 2005) This article summarizes the conclusion that “Mormons fared best at avoiding risky behaviors, doing well in school and having a positive attitude about the future. Conservative Protestants came in second.â€

Suicide rates in LDS patients went down as their religious involvement went up. DC Spendlove, DW West, WM Stanish, "Risk factors and the prevalence of depression in Mormon women," Soc Sci Med 18/6 (1984):491–495.

Inactive LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly four times that of active LDS males. Non-LDS males experience a suicide rate roughly six times that of active LDS males. SC Hilton, GW Fellingham, JL Lyon, "Suicide rates and religious commitment in young adult males in Utah," American Journal of Epidemiology 155/5 (1 March 2002): 413–419.
This same research shows that U.S. white males (aged 20-34) had suicide rates two and one-half to seven times that of active LDS males of equal age. Active LDS males, aged 15–19, have an equal suicide rate to that of national rates. Gilbert W. Fellingham, Kyle McBride, H. Dennis Tolley, and Joseph L. Lyon, "Statistics on Suicide and LDS Church Involvement in Males Age 15-34," Brigham Young University Studies 39 no. 2 (2000), 177.

Here are some other statistical fruits of Mormonism:
The National Catholic Weekly, John J. Dilulio Jr. reports in “Mormons and Charity†(April 9, 2012) on the Pew Forum Studies: 73% of Mormons believe that “working to help the poor†is “essential to being a good Mormon.†Led by Israeli-born scholar Ram A. Cnaan, the study concludes that churchgoing Mormons “are the most pro-social members of American society.†On average, Mormons dedicate nine times as many hours per month to volunteer activities as other Americans do. In addition to tithing, on average Mormons also give about $1,200 per year “to social causes outside the church.â€

The PEF(Perpetual Education Fund) program has already helped over 53,000 participants in 53 developing countries, plus five more approved. The average training program is about 2½ years with a reasonably high graduation rate around two thirds. Some participants leave early because they obtain decent jobs. Graduates typically gain jobs with at least twice their previous income. African countries typically have the highest loan repayment rate. Several non-Mormons have been so impressed with the program’s operational success and that every dollar contributed goes to students and none to administration or promotion that they contributed. In one case, the donation was $5 million.

The positions of women, including in the Mormon Relief Society (the oldest women’s organization in America), are apparently fulfilling, and the Pew Forum found that Mormon women are more satisfied with their role in their Church than are the women in any other religious group.

• An objective Pew Forum factual questionnaire concluded that Mormons know the Bible and Christianity better than members of any other religious group (with white evangelicals being second.)

I know I’m not supposed to be promoting Mormonism, but you asked for it. Besides, this is not me, but mostly data collected and analyzed by non-Mormon researchers.

 

[Deborah13]

An objective Pew Forum factual questionnaire concluded that Mormons know the Bible and Christianity better than members of any other religious group

Actually the only Pew Forum survey I could find was not just about the Bible and Christianity, darn. The only one I could find any thing about was ..
These are among the key findings of the “U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey,†a nationwide poll conducted from May 19 through June 6, 2010, among 3,412 adults. There were questions about all different religions. Atheists and agnostics average 20.9 correct answers. Jews and Mormons do about as well, averaging 20.5 and 20.3 correct answers, respectively.
Interesting article and interactive quiz. Only 15 questions. I know many here could get 100 % cause I got one wrong. Take the quiz first or you will know many answers.
http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/
http://www.pewforum.org/Press-Room/...y-Explores-Religious-Knowledge-in-the-US.aspx